Future of Turbo Tech

[mowmentous]

It's pretty amazing what the M division has done with this engine to reduce the turbo lag and make it more ///M like in it's power delivery. With F1 cars sporting turbos for the first time, I believe we are entering an era where we will see turbo tech improved and refined greatly in the coming years. Just look at what Mercedes has accomplished by divorcing the turbine from the compressor and mounting the compressor in the front of the motor. With heat being far less of an issue they are enjoying >1sec lap times over their 'competition'. It will only be a matter of time before we see this trickle down into consumer vehicles, I'm guessing sooner than later with the popularity of turbos in the marketplace today.
For the engineering-minded member: what other types of improvements do you think are possible, both in terms of power and linear and predictable power delivery. Will we see the day when a force-fed motor is indistinguishable from a NA one from a drivers perspective?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mowmentous

It's pretty amazing what the M division has done with this engine to reduce the turbo lag and make it more ///M like in it's power delivery. With F1 cars sporting turbos for the first time, I believe we are entering an era where we will see turbo tech improved and refined greatly in the coming years. Just look at what Mercedes has accomplished by divorcing the turbine from the compressor and mounting the compressor in the front of the motor. With heat being far less of an issue they are enjoying >1sec lap times over their 'competition'. It will only be a matter of time before we see this trickle down into consumer vehicles, I'm guessing sooner than later with the popularity of turbos in the marketplace today.
For the engineering-minded member: what other types of improvements do you think are possible, both in terms of power and linear and predictable power delivery. Will we see the day when a force-fed motor is indistinguishable from a NA one from a drivers perspective?

Just FYI, F1 had turbo engines from 1977 to 1988 as well. They had 1,5l turbo engines making as much as 1500+hp in qualy spec (the BMW 4 cyl was probably the most powerful of those engines).

[mowmentous]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Just FYI, F1 had turbo engines from 1977 to 1988 as well. They had 1,5l turbo engines making as much as 1500+hp in qualy spec (the BMW 4 cyl was probably the most powerful of those engines).

Materials, engineering and computing technology are very different now than they were back then, I'm interested in hearing peoples ideas of what will be possible tomorrow, not what was possible yesterday.

[solstice]

You mention Benz and F1. That's the future right there as you can already see in the McLaren P1 and the Porsche 918. You'll have an electric motor working in unison with the FI engine to remove all lag, completely. We will be talking "power units" instead of engines as is already the case in F1.

[JustChris]

I'm holding out for these as standard.

Then cue the 0 - 88.8mph threads

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by mowmentous

Will we see the day when a force-fed motor is indistinguishable from a NA one from a drivers perspective?

i think they will be able to get pretty good power and throttle response if they dumb enough time and money into them. although i am not sure how they are going to get a turbo engine to sound like a N/A engine. if sound counts for anything.

[Wah]

Well BMW already put the synthesized sound on the inside. Might as well put a speaker next to the exhaust and pump out driver selectable exhaust sound on the outside.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mowmentous

Materials, engineering and computing technology are very different now than they were back then, I'm interested in hearing peoples ideas of what will be possible tomorrow, not what was possible yesterday.

Cray said the most important engineer in his super computer design shop was the HVAC guy ... something like that will be true for cars.

If you want to know the future of autos you're looking in the wrong place - check the battery tech instead.

The engine of the future is already here:

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by Wah

Well BMW already put the synthesized sound on the inside. Might as well put a speaker next to the exhaust and pump out driver selectable exhaust sound on the outside.

Honestly, I don't know why BMW doesn't push this further. They've got all the infrastructure they need to play all kinds of engine sounds - why not make this driver-configurable? I'd love some serious induction roar one day and an F1-like V10 sound another. Perhaps a Ferrari flat 12 another day.

It could be an awesome feature. The current sound they pipe into the cabin sounds artificial and slightly ridiculous. Why not go all-in?

[M3ryder55]

Imagine having an app where they can sell u things like a tune or change the sound noise coming in.

Tune would be cool. Noise would b pretty lame

[Ducfan]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Cray said the most important engineer in his super computer design shop was the HVAC guy ... something like that will be true for cars.

If you want to know the future of autos you're looking in the wrong place - check the battery tech instead.

The engine of the future is already here:

Agreed. And on every objective performance measure they will be far better than the best NA we have today. The OP question is interesting. I might be tempted to say the turbo engines will soon surpass the NA as well but I actually think true development on these as stand alone engines will soon nearly cease in favor of pure electric. Or this combined power unit as listed above....but that can only be temporary.

Btw while I would bet my savings on this....doesn't mean I nessessarily relish it as a car guy.

[jbraslins]

One electric motor per wheel is the way to go imho. With some software and various presets, you could turn your car from AWD, to RWD or even FWD. Control power distribution and simulate various type of rear differentials.
Sky is the limit.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by Wah

Well BMW already put the synthesized sound on the inside. Might as well put a speaker next to the exhaust and pump out driver selectable exhaust sound on the outside.

Actually, no kidding the BMW i8 already does that. There are two exhaust pipes coming out of the little 3 cylinder 1.5L Turbo engine on the i8. One exhaust pipe is for real exhaust gases to come out of, the other pipe has a small speaker in it that emits exhaust notes to "increase" the sound of the vehicle on the outside.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

One electric motor per wheel is the way to go imho. With some software and various presets, you could turn your car from AWD, to RWD or even FWD. Control power distribution and simulate various type of rear differentials.
Sky is the limit.

^This is the future, as seen on the SLS AMG for example. IMO battery technology is the bottleneck. Once we have good enough batteries, it will be the death of the internal combustion emgine.

[RPiM5]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

^This is the future, as seen on the SLS AMG for example. IMO battery technology is the bottleneck. Once we have good enough batteries, it will be the death of the internal combustion emgine.

Better battery technology IS coming. Just a matter of time. One day we will have much smaller and lighter batteries that will hold 10x the charge of today's current batteries in automobiles. Tesla is on the forefront of this technology. We will also see new technology where super-capacitors are able to charge a large battery to full within a matter of seconds or minutes. However, I don't think the internal combustion will be going anywhere for the next 50 to 100 years. The Oil Companies will fight to keep them around and could you ever imagine buying a Lamborghini that's only powered by batteries and electric motors? Lol!

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

^This is the future, as seen on the SLS AMG for example. IMO battery technology is the bottleneck. Once we have good enough batteries, it will be the death of the internal combustion emgine.

I absolutely agree, but...

...they've been saying this for over 100 years. Electric cars ruled back before 1910 or so, but IC engines surpassed them and have kept pulling away. Current battery technology probably equals IC engines from perhaps the 1940s. A real breakthrough is needed, but as far as I can see isn't imminent.

Bruce

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I absolutely agree, but...

...they've been saying this for over 100 years. Electric cars ruled back before 1910 or so, but IC engines surpassed them and have kept pulling away. Current battery technology probably equals IC engines from perhaps the 1940s. A real breakthrough is needed, but as far as I can see isn't imminent.

Bruce

Fully agree. Battery technology is not evolving that fast, that's why I said it is the bottleneck. We are not yet at the dawn of the IC engine IMO. Further, if all cars are to switch to electric power, we will need as a society to make way more (clean) electricity.

[pkimM3r]

theres already a review about how soft the throttle response is on the s55 f82 so no the tech is not there yet. sucks for us.

[mowmentous]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Fully agree. Battery technology is not evolving that fast, that's why I said it is the bottleneck. We are not yet at the dawn of the IC engine IMO. Further, if all cars are to switch to electric power, we will need as a society to make way more (clean) electricity.

Interesting discussion. I like the idea of an energy recovery system charging the batteries and filling in the torque curve to compensate for the non-linear turbo pattern. But I'll echo others' sentiments in that battery tech seems to be stalled ATM. Even our best Li-ion batteries are relatively heavy and don't work very well in cold climates. If there were to be a significantly better battery technology, or a cost-efficient supercapacitor system, I think it would be big trouble for the IC engine.
One interesting idea that Audi used in their R18 e-tron was to have a standard IC engine driving the rear wheels and a flywheel based system (powered by braking energy recovery) driving the front.

[signes]

Originally Posted by mowmentous

It's pretty amazing what the M division has done with this engine to reduce the turbo lag and make it more ///M like in it's power delivery. With F1 cars sporting turbos for the first time, I believe we are entering an era where we will see turbo tech improved and refined greatly in the coming years. Just look at what Mercedes has accomplished by divorcing the turbine from the compressor and mounting the compressor in the front of the motor. With heat being far less of an issue they are enjoying >1sec lap times over their 'competition'. It will only be a matter of time before we see this trickle down into consumer vehicles, I'm guessing sooner than later with the popularity of turbos in the marketplace today.
For the engineering-minded member: what other types of improvements do you think are possible, both in terms of power and linear and predictable power delivery. Will we see the day when a force-fed motor is indistinguishable from a NA one from a drivers perspective?

The Mercedes is ahead for more reasons that their engine, although that is by far most of the gap. With more racing applications and an explosion in turbocharged road cars I am sure the technology will continue to evolve but agree with others that the biggest advanced will be made in better integrated and simpler hybrid systems.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by mowmentous

Materials, engineering and computing technology are very different now than they were back then, I'm interested in hearing peoples ideas of what will be possible tomorrow, not what was possible yesterday.

I only mentioned it because you wrote that F1 now had turbos "for the first time".

It was just a factual information to highlight that F1 have had turbos before... It wasn't a comment on technology in any way.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by RPiM5

Actually, no kidding the BMW i8 already does that. There are two exhaust pipes coming out of the little 3 cylinder 1.5L Turbo engine on the i8. One exhaust pipe is for real exhaust gases to come out of, the other pipe has a small speaker in it that emits exhaust notes to "increase" the sound of the vehicle on the outside.

Yup exactly this, clever stuff.