Why is the RS4 faster than new M3 in nurburgring?

[Mr.Marvelous]

Guys you really gotta help me.

I am trying to convince a friend that real wheel drive is way much better than a quattro system in any way except a case that you live in the swiss alps

But he came with the lap times of the RS4 and the new M3. Altough the audi is heavier, lacks the 50-50 balance and has the same bhp, it is pretty faster than the new M3 on the nurburgring... What's the reason for this?

[Just_me]

there is no official M3 V8 time yet. Rumour has it the new M3 did it in 8.03 min, thats 6 seconds faster than the RS4. But if you mean the old M3 "E46" yes then RS4 is much faster, mostly thanks to R-tires and more power.

[lucid]

Almost every single review I've read says the RS4 is easier to drive due to AWD, and then continues to say the M3 is the more involving and fun to drive. So, I guess it depends on the kind of experience you want.

[Uli_HH]

Wait for this fríday, November 23th...! Then we all get the official lap time for the M3 E92 for Nürburgring Nordschleife...because the new SA comes out with the new M3 "Supertest"....


Greetings Uli_HH

[The CSL]

The fastest production car at the 'Ring is RWD and so is F1. That's all that matters in the RWD debate.

[Epacy]

Originally Posted by Uli_HH

Wait for this fríday, November 23th...! Then we all get the official lap time for the M3 E92 for Nürburgring Nordschleife...because the new SA comes out with the new M3 "Supertest"....


Greetings Uli_HH

Really? At least something to look forward to now after the huge disappointment that was the LA Auto Show.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Really? At least something to look forward to now after the huge disappointment that was the LA Auto Show.

Really, unless Sportauto decided to publish another car's Supertest.

Best regards, south

[Just_me]

its either the new M3 or CLK63 Black Series in next Sportauto.

[Steved]

I doubt the RS4 would be quicker on the 'ring, and I believe the time posted by Sport Auto was not of a car in standard spec. Ultimately it is 100kg heavier than the M3, although it does have a very stable chassis and they would no doubt achieve similar speeds on the Hohe Acht straight.

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by Steved

I doubt the RS4 would be quicker on the 'ring, and I believe the time posted by Sport Auto was not of a car in standard spec. Ultimately it is 100kg heavier than the M3, although it does have a very stable chassis and they would no doubt achieve similar speeds on the Hohe Acht straight.

The tested RS4 in Sportauto was on R-tires, ceramic brakes and the extra optional sportchassi.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by Just_me

The tested RS4 in Sportauto was on R-tires, ceramic brakes and the extra optional sportchassi.

Exactly.

[footie]

Again, why the fascination with lap times. The problem with the ring and the times produced on it, is the bloody track is so long that you can experience differing weathers on the same lap. The temperature alone could effect the time by as much as 4s easy enough and that's without the slightest whiff of rain.

As for the RS4 which did the 8:09, well ceramic brakes wouldn't make that much as the ring isn't as demanding as some tracks on brakes, the optional sportchassis (SS+) again I'm also doubt it would have made much an effect, but the tyres now that's a whole different ball game.

Will it be quicker than the M3, of course it won't. The M3 pulls harder as the speed increases and the ring has some pretty long straights to aid this top end grunt, all the M3 needs to do is match the RS4 on the corners and the straights alone will make it 4 seconds easily.

[Clemenza]

Originally Posted by Just_me

there is no official M3 V8 time yet. Rumour has it the new M3 did it in 8.03 min, thats 6 seconds faster than the RS4. But if you mean the old M3 "E46" yes then RS4 is much faster, mostly thanks to R-tires and more power.

Was reading a review of the C63 AMG in "Mercedes Enthusiast" (UK Mercedes Mag) and they stated that the M3 V8 is 20 seconds faster than the E46 M3 around the n'ring.

[footie]

If so then that would put the E92 M3 at 8:02 which is amazing for a coupe with a good boot and able to seat four adult in comfort.

[Clemenza]

Originally Posted by footie

If so then that would put the E92 M3 at 8:02 which is amazing for a coupe with a good boot and able to seat four adult in comfort.

I believe that will be the number. A friend of mine who is a big Audi R8 guy, said the number will be comparable to the R8 (he always has the scoop, and was quite impressed). I believe the car tested had the option of the limiter raised/removed.

[E90ice]

just show your friend this:

http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=46f388b437911

that should shut him up.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Clemenza

I believe that will be the number. A friend of mine who is a big Audi R8 guy, said the number will be comparable to the R8 (he always has the scoop, and was quite impressed). I believe the car tested had the option of the limiter raised/removed.

Well that would make all the difference.

[Just_me]

The tested M3 in Sportauto is probably done with R-tires and raised topspeed to 280km/h but the topspeed wont do much difference, there is only one straightline were the M3 can achieve its topspeed.

PS R8 and RS4 were also tested on R-tires.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

Again, why the fascination with lap times.

To slightly turn the tables why all of the disinterest in it and minimization of it from you?

No one here is claiming they can drive the N'ring at 8 flat. It is about the cars ultimate capability on a hugely difficult, widely varying track at unholy speeds, rife with danger. It is about competition, taking a top standing place, bragging rights, history and tradition. It is a standard for OEMs to judge their own cars and to judge others by. It helps consumers on the enthusiast side decide how sporty and capable a car will be when really pushed hard.

I do suppose some German members (south?) could really add some thoughful additions to my humble POV. Heck I have not even been there!

[footie]

The only reason for the disinterest is the knowledge that very lap is compromised in some way or another and to differing degrees, so while one car could get a perfect lap, another could have a very compromised one and all within the matter of hours. To take just two examples, the CSL and the E46 M3, there is a difference on 30seconds around the ring but we don't know what each of their laps where actually like at the time, all we have to go on is their lap times and based on that the CSL is truly amazing (which it is) but will we ever know if it was just a case that the CSL got that perfect lap and the M3 did not.

P.S.

Please don't start a whole debate thinking that I am either running down the CSL or bumming up the M3 as I know the CSL is in a different league to the M3 but who knows the gap could has been less or even more, it's only an opinion on the ring and what can effect the results gained.

Personally I think what the manufacturers get is nearer the true potential as they are spending months driving the track and not the one or two days that these Supertests do.


I reckon you need to check out a selection of times on a number of tracks to get a true reflection of what the abilities are of a car and not just the ring.

Just a thought.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

I reckon you need to check out a selection of times on a number of tracks to get a true reflection of what the abilities are of a car and not just the ring.

Just a thought.

The ring time is the most complete single number available to compare the performance of two cars.

Some of us focus on performance because thats why we buy the cars instead of a 335 or a4. You have said before that you are in it for a status symbol, we get it. However, no need to attack people buying a performance car for its performance and not just bragging rights.

[Just_me]

Originally Posted by footie

The only reason for the disinterest is the knowledge that very lap is compromised in some way or another and to differing degrees, so while one car could get a perfect lap, another could have a very compromised one and all within the matter of hours. To take just two examples, the CSL and the E46 M3, there is a difference on 30seconds around the ring but we don't know what each of their laps where actually like at the time, all we have to go on is their lap times and based on that the CSL is truly amazing (which it is) but will we ever know if it was just a case that the CSL got that perfect lap and the M3 did not.

Sportauto always mention road/airpressure/air temperatures for the tested car. They always use the same driver. They also mention what tires were used during the lap.
Its not bulletproof but this most honest and unbaised Nurnburgring test we have. If Sportauto used different driver for every test I wouldnt put much intrest in the laptimes but the driver is a crucial for a good laptime.

We are all entitled to use Sportauto times or not but since this is the only carmag that do N-ring tests and with the same driver I wil use this for reference.
Even the carmakers does and they are following these Sportauto tests very closely.

Also I doubt Sportauto does one single lap with the car. I believe they do several laps and then present the best time they achieved during the testperiod. Just to minimize the variables that can damage a good laptime.

Dont forget that Sportauto also test their cars around two different tracks, the second track is Hockenheim, a smaller track were chassi and traction are more important than engine performance. High speed is not major factor on Hockenheim.