new csl?

[gooner]

anyone heard whether new csl coming to the us? just moved over from uk was going to bring e46 csl over !!!!

[UltimateBMW]

Wayyyyy too soon for any info on the CSL. They haven't even given us official dates and prices yet for the US.

If thats all your really interested in I'd say check back in 1-2 years.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

Wayyyyy too soon for any info on the CSL. They haven't even given us official dates and prices yet for the US.

If thats all your really interested in I'd say check back in 1-2 years.

It is not all that early. Although it still seems it takes BMW forever to get new models released world wide they are doing better (e.g. coupe and sedan available simultaneously in the US). E92 M3 CSL spy pics have been available since September. Have a look here. I for one would love to see the cabin of that car and see if it has M-DCT. But back on topic I think we will be hearing about the E92 M3 CSL sooner in the E92 cycle compared to the E46 cycle. Just a hunch. The question still remains as to whether the E92 M3 CSL will be available in the US.

[UltimateBMW]

I disagree on the timeline. In the past BMW has followed a trendline of releasing 1 new version of the M3 at a time. With the e46 the sedan came out, then the coupe a year later, then the M3 a year after that along with the e46 Convertible. And lastly a year after that the convertible was released. We didn't hear about the CSL until after both M3 models were released.

Obviously, this is just speculation as I don't work for BMW nor am I psychic. But their marketing isn't without cause. Its obvious they space out the releases so that they are always in headlines and always have new things for poeple to look forward too. While BMW M division may be getting the step on the CSL, that has absolutely no bearing on when they publicly release information on it. An example of that is poeple saying the BMW M was working on the engine for the e92 M3 ever since the e46 went on sale. Yet, obviously they had 7 years of e46 M3 sales before we heard any word on the e92 M3's engine.

All in all, We won't hear any news about the CSL until after the Convertible e93 M3 is released, or at least has a PR. Its not a matter of BMW just being better at releasing things faster, its a deliberate delay.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

I disagree on the timeline. In the past BMW has followed a trendline of releasing 1 new version of the M3 at a time. With the e46 the sedan came out, then the coupe a year later, then the M3 a year after that along with the e46 Convertible. And lastly a year after that the convertible was released. We didn't hear about the CSL until after both M3 models were released.

Obviously, this is just speculation as I don't work for BMW nor am I psychic. But their marketing isn't without cause. Its obvious they space out the releases so that they are always in headlines and always have new things for poeple to look forward too. While BMW M division may be getting the step on the CSL, that has absolutely no bearing on when they publicly release information on it. An example of that is poeple saying the BMW M was working on the engine for the e92 M3 ever since the e46 went on sale. Yet, obviously they had 7 years of e46 M3 sales before we heard any word on the e92 M3's engine.

All in all, We won't hear any news about the CSL until after the Convertible e93 M3 is released, or at least has a PR. Its not a matter of BMW just being better at releasing things faster, its a deliberate delay.

So BMW is or is not doing things differently with the E92 and E90 say vs. E46 and E46 convertible? They will be releasing more models simultaneously this time around. It is a delicate balance between conflicting goals, they need to appear to be constantly having "new" models even if they are not new (as you say). They also have to get cars to the market quickly to stay ahead of competitors and to simply capture revenue and grow sales absolutely as soon as possible (the obvious goal of any company). I do believe that these early N'Ring sightings of the CSL bode well for an earlier introduction of that model (again a guess on my part as well). However there is other evidence to support my claim.

-All the mags are already talking about the more racy, serious version of the car, the CSL. Many of them have spoken directly to BMW on this topic.
-BMW is planning to offer more and more CSL models such as the M6 CSL
-Quote from M boss Richter, "The last M3 CSL was very successful and fun to drive. From now on, there will always be a CSL version of the M3."

They are simply getting more serious about the CSL line and are taking it from "experiment" to "product". All this being said I agree with you that we really won't hear much official from BMW until the 'vert is released. But again I strongly suspect we will hear more about the M3 CSL both unofficially and officially earlier in the E9X cycle compared to the E46 cycle.

[UltimateBMW]

You make some interesting points. I wasn't aware of all the coverage on the CSL already.

However, I still stand by that you won't hear anything about it from BMW in at the very least a year.

On a side note, having the CSL become a bit more main-stream would definitely be something to marvel. The sky is the limit with the e92 M3 as a base.

[footie]

I agree with UltimateBMW, why would they bring out a CSL before all of the normal M3 versions have hit the streets. I thought there was talk of even a Touring M3 but even if that was not the case the cabrio is still more an 10 months away at best, so I agree that the logical answer would be 2009 when Audi are supposed to release their RS5 model.

A way of stealing their thunder so to speak.

[PortoM3]

sorry for being ignorant here but what does the CSL stand for? and what is CSL? what did the last model have extra than regular E46 . That car was nice just as is.. and What is the CS without the L.. Hate to imagine what the E92 CSL will have that is not already on the base. the base seems fast enough. thanks

[JEllis]

In English CS=Competition and L=Lightweight. At least that is my understanding

Jason

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by PortoM3

sorry for being ignorant here but what does the CSL stand for? and what is CSL? what did the last model have extra than regular E46 . That car was nice just as is.. and What is the CS without the L.. Hate to imagine what the E92 CSL will have that is not already on the base. the base seems fast enough. thanks

"Coupe, Sport, Lightweight". Lighter, more power, faster, harder edged machine. 1,400 E46 M3 CSLs were produced in 2003, none imported to the US. The E90 version will probably follow the same formula. No idea if it will be designed with the US in mind this time.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2030228....-csl-in-detail

[phoenixbmwlife]

Here is the one thing some of you may have neglected. Probably one of the most important factors in BMW'S corporate decision making, if not THE most important factor for when to release new models.

What is my competition doing/creating/releasing now and within the next 2 years? With a Nissan GTR that completes the Nurburgring in 7:3X seconds, and a GT2 finishing in close to or similar times, do you think that BMW will just sit on the bench and watch their competition shine? BMW wants and believes they deserve a piece of the pie also, because they know that their product is better and will sell better than the competition. The timeline for releasing the M3 CSL version will depend on the level of performance of the competition. In other words, I wouldn’t bet on the rule of thumb that BMW will be releasing the CSL after the Hardtop convertible is released. It all depends on what the competition is doing.

I don’t have a crystal ball so this is just my opinion, but here is why I seriously believe that we can see a concept model in 08, (and by the way in 6 weeks we will be in 08) with the release of the M3 CSL in 2009. Unless they decide to release the M6 CSL first which again will be based on what is my competition doing? The horse power wars have been in full throttle for a few of years now, and the only way to get ahead is to continue to release edgy, and quality high performance models that dwarf the competition.

Weight reduction is the way of the future for performance cars.

[UltimateBMW]

I see where your logic is coming from, but you seem to be forgetting that the e92 M3 was only released in Europe in September. (Filthy was the first forum member to get his on Sept. 8th) That was 2 months ago. The US release will happen around Febuary/March of '08. Then you need to have the convertible release, which will probably start showing up in late '08 as a 2009 model. Now here is the clincher, after the release of the e93 M3 there only other model that BMW has left to release for the 3 series is the CSL. There are no other slated models, which translates that when the CSL is released we will be dry of any forth coming significant 3 series changes for a few years, short of any face lifts that the non-M cars will receive.

The reason BMW won't announce anything on the CSL within the next year is because of your logic and reasoning about staying in the news and keeping up with competition. Also, remember the RS4 has been out for more than just a year. It is almost up to be replaced by Audi within the next year or so. Based on that it seems apparent that BMW isn't keeping their models up to compete in performance so much as compete in quantity of their product line and innovative new vehicle classifications.

Remember, BMW model lines run for 7 years. That is much longer than Audi lines and far more consistent of a habbit than any other car manufacturer. Audi has been through 4 model codes for the A4 line in the last 10 years or so. Furthermore, look at the whole picture. If the CSL is announced in 8 months, July of 2008, or even say a year, Nov. 2008, then what is left for them to release when Audi introduces the new RS4 in 2 years. By then the CSL would of been a year old and while most likely not boring, certainly it will be considered old news and will take the defensive position that the RS4 is holding right now in most car comparison tests.

When you look at both the whole picture and the short term, when being logical and sympathetic to their Marketing campaign and production trends you really can't end up with a CSL release time any sooner than in 2009.

Also, in closing keep in mind that I am only refering to official BMW releases. Spy shots are purely coincidental and mostly luck dependant on how careful BMW is in testing/camo. There has already been a spy shot of a test mule M3 with the CSL bootlid, which means nothing other than that BMW is doing what every manufacturer does and tests their car well before any press announcement has been made.

[Steved]

As a few of you will remember from me posting at the e92 M3's launch, BMW spoke to all of the press and mentioned the forthcoming CSL version, which for BMW is unusual - they normally like to keep very quiet about future models and then surprise us. We asked when would a CSL version arrive and the answer was 'sooner than you might expect', which most people took to be within a year. BMW representatives would just smile at such a remark and made no effort to correct that assumption, so I would expect therefore that BMW 'could' launch the CSL if they still choose to later in 2008.

A few of you may not be aware of the timing of the press announcements for the E46. The M3 was initially announced in 2000, with the first launch press release (for UK markets) in April 2001.

Now, the M3 CSL concept was presented initially in Frankfurt (September) 2001 and then Tokyo, so that was just a year or so after the M3 was announced and only a few months after M3 deliveries to customers began.

Following these press launches of the M3CSL, BMW were testing the water to assess customer reaction and they then invited the press to drive prototypes of the CSL during early 2002 with the intention of producing it shortly after. It took over a year for them to put it into production, mainly it seems because they had problems reliably extracting more performance from the 3.2l S54 engine, they actually put it on more of a lightweight diet than originally intended and the final production press release was in Feb 2003 before first cars were delivered in June 2003.

The announcement timeline in BMW's home market of Germany was;

June 2000 - E46 M3 announced
Sept 2000 - E46 M3 in production
November 2000 - M3 Cabrio announced and in production
April 2001 - M3 now fitted with SMG gearbox
September 2001 - M3 GTR announced
September 2001 - M3 CSL concept first shown
July 2002 - M3 CSL announced and made available to the press
Feb 2003 - M3 CSL production model launched (in time for Geneva '03).

None of this guarantees a similar timeline for the E92 CSL. This time BMW are unlikely to have problems finding sufficient power, and they know where and how to reduce weight whilst still meeting customer expectations. As always with BMW, they will chose to launch it when it suits them, but the word certainly within official circles was for a late 2008 launch, perhaps Frankfurt or Tokyo just as with the E46 M3 CSL. We'll see.

[Steved]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

The reason BMW won't announce anything on the CSL within the next year is because of your logic and reasoning about staying in the news and keeping up with competition. Also, remember the RS4 has been out for more than just a year. It is almost up to be replaced by Audi within the next year or so. Based on that it seems apparent that BMW isn't keeping their models up to compete in performance so much as compete in quantity of their product line and innovative new vehicle classifications.

Neither BMW nor Audi design the launch schedules of their performance models to fit with each other, that works at the lower volume end of the scale (although even then it is not as tightly coupled as some would like to think), but niche models are launched when it suits them. Yes, of course they are conscious of their competition, but there's a significant launch every year in this sector and like any good strategy you don't compete by watching what others are doing. Someone has to lead and BMW see themselves as leaders in this sector. Let Audi or any others play catch-up if they can.

Last time out the M3 CSL coincided with the GT3RS and Challenge Stradale, this time they are further apart. Last time out the CSL had nothing to do with the RS4, and this time will be the same.

They are very dissimilar cars, I should know since I own both.

Likewise it is very unlikely that a new RS4 will be out in the next 2 years, the TTR and RS5 are due before the RS4 and Audi are still sticking to their guns of only producing one RS model at a time. Also they are only 'just' launching the RS6, which will need a run of 12-18 months before switching to the next RS model.

So BMW will launch their CSL version of the E92 M3 when they are ready. It will have very little to do with Audi's product life-cycle and probably little correlation to the M3 convertible. BMW have already stated that over this next year they will launch more cars (10 I believe) than they ever have in the same period, so expect plenty of fireworks.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

When you look at both the whole picture and the short term, when being logical and sympathetic to their Marketing campaign and production trends you really can't end up with a CSL release time any sooner than in 2009.

That's exactly what I said. I said a concept model sometime in 08, with the release of the CSL version in 09.

About the new RS4 you mentioned. Rumors are that the M3 CSL can weigh in at around 3150lbs. Therefore unless Audi makes a real lightweight version, which they never really made, that's agile (unlike the previous RS4) it would be the better to release the CSL before so they can control the market and stay on top. Which again brings me back to the same logic. It all depends on what is my competetion doing/creating/releasing?

Thanks for replying.

[Steved]

Guys, the CSL and RS4 are not in the same space. You should not be comparing them.

The E92 M3 is 'exactly' the same kind of car as an RS4, and therefore the E92 M3 CSL will be in a completely different category. I really cannot see the same buyer choosing between them, assuming BMW follow the same philosophy as they did with the E46.

[footie]

I am really surprised that some here see the CSL as a rival to the RS4.

Why, they don't follow the same formula for achieving performance, the CSL is a light weight track focused driver's car for those want a tool to use occasionally instead of a daily drive (though some might still use it daily), where as the RS4 sees itself as a highly capable performance car which matches extreme performance in a less extreme package which can be used everyday in every weather conditions.

The current M3 have pitched itself in the same performance level as the out going RS4 but there is no doubt the next RS4 or RS5 will be on a level above the M3, but it will also be at a price level above as well.

If the CSL is to compete with anything I reckon it's the GT3, but whether it can improve on the new M3 as the last one did with the old M3 I won't hold my breath, the old CSL was a mind blowing piece of engineering with a price to go along with it.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by footie

I am really surprised that some here see the CSL as a rival to the RS4.

Why, they don't follow the same formula for achieving performance, the CSL is a light weight track focused driver's car for those want a tool to use occasionally instead of a daily drive (though some might still use it daily), where as the RS4 sees itself as a highly capable performance car which matches extreme performance in a less extreme package which can be used everyday in every weather conditions.

The current M3 have pitched itself in the same performance level as the out going RS4 but there is no doubt the next RS4 or RS5 will be on a level above the M3, but it will also be at a price level above as well.

If the CSL is to compete with anything I reckon it's the GT3, but whether it can improve on the new M3 as the last one did with the old M3 I won't hold my breath, the old CSL was a mind blowing piece of engineering with a price to go along with it.

out of curiosity, what class is the S4 going after?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by jworms

out of curiosity, what class is the S4 going after?

^This is a good counter point to footie. The problem is that comparisons are never perfect (well maybe a Mustand and Camaro...). Between the big rivals BMW and Audi the question is which is better?:

-A4 vs. 328i, S4 (or S5) vs. 335i, RS4 vs. M3, nothing vs. CSL ... or
-Nothing vs. 328i, A4 vs. 335i, S4 (or S5) vs. M3, RS4 vs. CSL

Each group has its logic based on price, point in model range, performance level, targeted demographics, etc. The S vs. M and RS vs CSL makes good sense when you simply line up basic model levels, sport model, rare very high end sport model. However, as Steved mentioned comparing the actual performance of the RS4 vs. CSL is a bit of a joke. Where I disagree with Steved is on the rarity point. Here RS4 vs. CSL is also a fair comparison. You can have some fun with BMW vs. Porsche comparisons as well. I think it is more difficult. However, GT3 watch out!

Now that we'll have an E92 and E90 M3 you can also argue for RS4 or S4 vs. E90 and RS5 or S5 vs E92 are the best comparisons. This is solid based on door count but breaks down because E92 and E90 are the same basic price point and chassis whereas S4 and S5 are not.

The great news about BMW being more serious about the CSL these days is that we are much more likely to see the car in the US and given higher volumes the price will be lower.

[footie]

Originally Posted by jworms

out of curiosity, what class is the S4 going after?

God knows.

Before it was so simple, the S4 competed with the M3 end of story but it is now looking for like Audi has decided to leave the M3 well alone and concern itself with the 335i. There is even talk that the S4 will be using a v6 Bi-turbo unit similar to the 335i, how more direct can you get than that.

I don't know if I am right about the next RS4/5 models, they may just get a slight rework of the current RS4 engine or they may be gunning for the C63 which would mean an increase in power to a figure much closer to 480hp when you take into account the transmission lose of awd. I suppose it will all depend as to when the next RS4/5 appears.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

^This is a good counter point to footie. The problem is that comparisons are never perfect (well maybe a Mustand and Camaro...). Between the big rivals BMW and Audi the question is which is better?:

-A4 vs. 328i, S4 (or S5) vs. 335i, RS4 vs. M3, nothing vs. CSL ... or
-Nothing vs. 328i, A4 vs. 335i, S4 (or S5) vs. M3, RS4 vs. CSL

Each group has its logic based on price, point in model range, performance level, targeted demographics, etc. The S vs. M and RS vs CSL makes good sense when you simply line up basic model levels, sport model, rare very high end sport model. However, as Steved mentioned comparing the actual performance of the RS4 vs. CSL is a bit of a joke. Where I disagree with Steved is on the rarity point. Here RS4 vs. CSL is also a fair comparison. You can have some fun with BMW vs. Porsche comparisons as well. I think it is more difficult. However, GT3 watch out!

Now that we'll have an E92 and E90 M3 you can also argue for RS4 or S4 vs. E90 and RS5 or S5 vs E92 are the best comparisons. This is solid based on door count but breaks down because E92 and E90 are the same basic price point and chassis whereas S4 and S5 are not.

The great news about BMW being more serious about the CSL these days is that we are much more likely to see the car in the US and given higher volumes the price will be lower.

Swamp2,

I would have never of classed the RS4 and CSL as rivals, the two cars aren't even fighting for the same customers for heaven sakes. What we have now that the RS4 has ended production is Audi with the S5 being sandwiched between the 335i and the M3, it's more sporty looking and with a slight performance advantage over the 335i, but it nowhere near as sporty nor has the performance to compete with the M3 and it price reflects this on both sides of the Atlantic.

If you were to stack both ranges (BMW and Audi) in a line I think it would go like this.

BMW 335i > Audi S5 > BMW M3 > Audi RS5(depending on power) > BMW CSL

I don't know if you will agree with me on this but it's how I see the two brands stacking up and their prices will no doubt match this thinking.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

BMW 335i > Audi S5 > BMW M3 > Audi RS5(depending on power) > BMW CSL

I agree with you especially on the "sandwiching" of performance between the two brands. You could add one as well, like this:

A4 > 335i > S5 > M3 > RS5 > CSL