The future of M

[chicagobimmerboy]

Let's face it BMW has made some of the best race bred cars around, doing it the old fashoned way, small high revving engines and a balanced chasis. The German HP war has had BMW increasing engine size and cylinder count like crazy, examles M5 V10, M3 V8 etc. This however leaves BMW at an interesting crossroads, M division want only light high-revving engines but part of that is having a rather small displacement. Here is the problem, there is only so much play you have with an engine before you have to increase capacity (which means bigger, heavier internals, garbage MPG and not so high rev's. The current M straight six is maxed out, the current V10 is going to be upgraded soon and the M V8 well it's brand new, the problem concerns the M5, rumors have started that a TT M5 is in the wings for the next generation. Belive me I would have no problem with a 600-650 HP V10 but its against M heritige to have forced induction, the M boss even said "M cars have been and will always be high revving and NAURALLY ASPERATED", and remember that engine will have to be completely rebuilt with heavy duty parts to withstand that kind of boost. To be honest turbocharging is a lazy way to make power, M always has put more effort into their cars than that!!! However I can see one direction BMW M might take; they switch to direct injection wich boosts HP and MPG's massively, they make the cars lighter and give only modest increases in engine size (this way we can get 600-650 HP, good MPG's and have an 8300 plus redline. A possible mid-life upgrade for the M3 could be direct injection, can anyone say 450 HP or more !!! which route do you all think BMW will take? stay true to M heritge and invest in new technology or do the Audi quick fix and bolt on some turbos?

[Big Windy]

i think "never say never" about what M leadership has said about FI. considering that you are talking about the future of M, leadership changes somewhere down the road might cause BMW to also have a different mindset or perspective on FI.

the other possibility is really looking into weight saving techniques. yeah they've done a great job with the new V8 being more powerful, yet lighter than the previous 6...but the M3 is still chubby. I don't see a V10 being a realistic option, so something is eventually going to change...just my .02

[lucid]

Yes, they have clearly stated that the next step is not to increase power but to decrease weight. I think the NA V8 is here to stay for many many years. I would not be surprised, however, if it got a small bump in displacement to 4.2-4.3 liters in a few years.

[JEllis]

Yep, most auto makers in fact have hinted at lighter cars over more power for their future sports cars. With efficiency increases in the production of exotic materials, we will start to see more and more composites in auto design and production. The CF roofs on the new M's is only the tip of the iceburg.

Jason

[footie]

Firstly, the question of N/A or force induction, I personally don't have a problem either way, BMW has made a very impressive engine in the 335i which behaves as near a N/A as is possible, the only tell tale sign is the fact that it has more torque down low than even a bigger V8. I can see why die-hard M fans wouldn't want it as BMW are the only one of the big three not to chose that route for their top performance cars, but the facts are that N/A only really benefits professional motor racing when that fine throttle balance is truly required.

On this front, I reckon BMW are waiting to see how the motoring press and public opinions are on the new RS6 which I believe is meant to have the same turbo technology as the 997Turbo. If they all rate it the dogs bollocks then you might see a change of position from BMW.

Secondly, chassis balance. BMW are the only one of the true sportscar makers that still perceive the 50/50 weight balance is the right one, Ferrari, McLaren and other believe front engined rwd sportscar should have a slight rear weight bias to aid traction, especially as power increases. I don't have an opinion on this as I have never own either a Ferrari or anything with a rear weight bias which was front engined and rwd, maybe someone else better informed might give their view on this subject. But the funny thing is that the original E30 M3 had this rear weight bias and many still believe it was the finest handling M car ever and this includes the CSL which does give food for thought.

I do agree with the weight reduction thing but as this generally means more cost then I doubt too many of us will be willing to pay for the excess of Carbon Fibre required to reduce the weight enough to really benefit the performance in the same way as two very small turbos could. So unless the production process for making CF comes down by quite a bit I doubt we will see the weights of our M cars dropping by much.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by footie

but the facts are that N/A only really benefits professional motor racing when that fine throttle balance is truly required.

Geesh, here's that disinformation again.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

I can see why die-hard M fans wouldn't want it as BMW are the only one of the big three not to chose that route for their top performance cars, but the facts are that N/A only really benefits professional motor racing when that fine throttle balance is truly required.

Oh lord, not this again. I am not a pro and not getting paid to race but I would notice the diffrence. All turbos have lag, thats the big problem and there is no way to eliminate it.

If I were BMW I would be investing heavily in electronic valve actuatiors. Doing away with the cams is the next big step after direct injection. It eliminates the need for throttle bodies and unlike vanos if allows full adjustment of lift, duration, and overlap.

[heyimsexy]

i dont think its a question of forced induction or not, i think bmw just needs to reconsider the direction of their motorsport program. my opinion is that bimmer has lost sight of what the m3 should be and is starting to head into the direction of benz, caring more about sales volume than a quality product.

i say bring back the motorsport in the cars name. the lightweight higher performance csl is what the base m3 should be. if they want to sell a car with navi, ac, comforts, etc call it the 340i or the m package. if that means cutting sales and profits, i say its worth it.

[footie]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

Geesh, here's that disinformation again.

I DO drive a V8 powered N/A Audi S5 so I know the benefits of having such an engine and I have driven turbo powered cars over the years as well. I agree that in the past turbo engine haven't had the same instant responses as a good N/A engine but after sampling the 335i and the 997turbo I have to say that the difference between pressing the throttle in either of these an a N/A engined car like the new M3 isn't as great as some of you guys believe.

Unlike some how might be commenting on this I have had the please of diving the E92 M3 and all of the other cars mentioned so I think I do know what I am talking about.

[Big Windy]

Originally Posted by heyimsexy

i say bring back the motorsport in the cars name. the lightweight higher performance csl is what the base m3 should be. if they want to sell a car with navi, ac, comforts, etc call it the 340i or the m package. if that means cutting sales and profits, i say its worth it.

if only you were BMW M

[UltimateBMW]

I wouldn't knock BMW for trying to increase profits. More money means more ideas, concepts, car types, and more room to experiment to become better. Besides don't forget that they are still a business.

I may be mistaken in this, but BMW is one of the last car manufacturers to pretty much be stand alone, and self owned.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy

...which route do you all think BMW will take? stay true to M heritge and invest in new technology or do the Audi quick fix and bolt on some turbos?

Oversimplfy much?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by UltimateBMW

I may be mistaken in this, but BMW is one of the last car manufacturers to pretty much be stand alone, and self owned.

The last profitable one anyway.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by footie

I DO drive a V8 powered N/A Audi S5 so I know the benefits of having such an engine and I have driven turbo powered cars over the years as well. I agree that in the past turbo engine haven't had the same instant responses as a good N/A engine but after sampling the 335i and the 997turbo I have to say that the difference between pressing the throttle in either of these an a N/A engined car like the new M3 isn't as great as some of you guys believe.

No, I meant your comment regarding which is more desirable in racing cars driven by professionals. Unless you are also claiming to be a pro race driver?

NA only benefits drivers in race series where FI has already been banned, or severely handicapped.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The last profitable one anyway.

Porsche would be part of this club as well.

[footie]

Originally Posted by sdiver68

No, I meant your comment regarding which is more desirable in racing cars driven by professionals. Unless you are also claiming to be a pro race driver?

NA only benefits drivers in race series where FI has already been banned, or severely handicapped.

Sorry but I don't understand what your comments are relating to. I was only hinting that for normal day to day driving the fine throttle balance that a N/A engine gives over a turbo engine isn't really required. Lets face it, the only time such throttle balance would be required is like I said, motorsport or possibly drifting your own car in a corner and as that isn't the most mature thing to do I don't see it's benefits for the M3 having a N/A engine over a turbo with a big fat torque band that runs from the ground up.

There is others pluses to having a turbo engine, namely the size of the motor can be smaller and lighter which then leads to more economy and lower Co2 gases.

I say don't knock it until you've tried it, that's all.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry but I don't understand what your comments are relating to. I was only hinting that for normal day to day driving the fine throttle balance that a N/A engine gives over a turbo engine isn't really required. Lets face it, the only time such throttle balance would be required is like I said, motorsport or possibly drifting your own car in a corner and as that isn't the most mature thing to do I don't see it's benefits for the M3 having a N/A engine over a turbo with a big fat torque band that runs from the ground up.

There is others pluses to having a turbo engine, namely the size of the motor can be smaller and lighter which then leads to more economy and lower Co2 gases.

I say don't knock it until you've tried it, that's all.

I guess I'm challenging the assumption that NA cars ARE more easier to control from a road racing perspective than FI.

And I agree, going both ways. Don't knock either until you've tried them. In my own NA V8 track experience, I list my own Porsche 928GT and a friend's C5 Vette. At an elevated back road pace, also my M45 Sport.

[mkoesel]

What's the highest revving forced induction motor on the market? Do any even rev to 7500k RPM?

I will take FI but I don't want to give up the rev-ability. I'm sure its technologically feasible of course, as there are aftermarket turbo and superchargers for high revving motors available.

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy

Let's face it BMW has made some of the best race bred cars around, doing it the old fashoned way, small high revving engines and a balanced chasis. The German HP war has had BMW increasing engine size and cylinder count like crazy, examles M5 V10, M3 V8 etc. This however leaves BMW at an interesting crossroads, M division want only light high-revving engines but part of that is having a rather small displacement. Here is the problem, there is only so much play you have with an engine before you have to increase capacity (which means bigger, heavier internals, garbage MPG and not so high rev's. The current M straight six is maxed out, the current V10 is going to be upgraded soon and the M V8 well it's brand new, the problem concerns the M5, rumors have started that a TT M5 is in the wings for the next generation. Belive me I would have no problem with a 600-650 HP V10 but its against M heritige to have forced induction, the M boss even said "M cars have been and will always be high revving and NAURALLY ASPERATED", and remember that engine will have to be completely rebuilt with heavy duty parts to withstand that kind of boost. To be honest turbocharging is a lazy way to make power, M always has put more effort into their cars than that!!! However I can see one direction BMW M might take; they switch to direct injection wich boosts HP and MPG's massively, they make the cars lighter and give only modest increases in engine size (this way we can get 600-650 HP, good MPG's and have an 8300 plus redline. A possible mid-life upgrade for the M3 could be direct injection, can anyone say 450 HP or more !!! which route do you all think BMW will take? stay true to M heritge and invest in new technology or do the Audi quick fix and bolt on some turbos?

That is the key, M boss even said it in an article (forget where I read it...sorry). He said they are done with the horsepower road, that with the environmenta; concerns and the increasing EPA regulations the future is making the car lighter, not the engine more powerful.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

That is the key, M boss even said it in an article (forget where I read it...sorry). He said they are done with the horsepower road, that with the environmenta; concerns and the increasing EPA regulations the future is making the car lighter, not the engine more powerful.

Yeah, but are you willing to pay the cost of such a course of action. At present CF is very expensive to produces and though alloy is lighter than most steels the R8 and Aston Martins have proved one thing, being built entirely from aluminium don't always make for a light car. I think if the weight can be reduced cheaply it will be done in a combination of ways, from lighter engines to more suspension and steering parts being made from either alloy or CF. Less luxuries could save a lot but are we willing to give them up and of course more use of H/S steels like what Porsche do should gain a small but important amount.

As for the end of the power war, I very much doubt we have reached the end of that, from either BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

I say don't knock it until you've tried it, that's all.

Been there, done that, didn't like it.

I have driven Evo's, Supra's, 320i (aftermarked turbo), 633csi (Dinan turbo), Maseriti Bi-Turbo, and a few other turbos I cannot remember right now. On the NA side, Z06, lots of BMWs, Elise, Miata, Gti, S2000, numerous FWD imports, and one Porsche.

Now if all you do is loaf around on the street, sure, get the turbo. However, if like me, you take your car to play either at the track or autocross on the weekend, I prefer NA.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by footie

Yeah, but are you willing to pay the cost of such a course of action. At present CF is very expensive to produces and though alloy is lighter than most steels the R8 and Aston Martins have proved one thing, being built entirely from aluminium don't always make for a light car.

In my book the #1 thing BMW should do is go and re-design the front suspension of their cars so they don't plow like pigs through the turns. Its an easy fix and would probably take 10s to 15s off the ring times. It would be awesome to be able to use all of the front tires instead of just he outside half of them.

As long as they keep the weight ~3500 for the 4 seat cars, they are doing fine. I do think the Z's should go on a bit of a diet.