Hurry up before they are gone

[ruff]

The M3 is shaping up to be an excellent car. What makes a great car are the devil in the details.

This issue may be of no concern to anyone else, but to me, it is a major concern. Interestingly, I get flamed about every time I mention it. I wonder why? Reports in gerneral indicate that the steering of the e92 M3 is lacking feedback, some stating it is feeless and indicating it is not as good as the base 3 series. Let me repeat myself fellow M enthusiasts, not as good as the base 3 series. Red flag anyone? Now some of you will say not all reports are saying this....Well I can tell you and anyone else who have read the body of evidence thus far knows the preponderance of reports indicate it is an achiles heel to an otherwise great car. So if you want to rationalize it away, be my guest. I do not expect the M3 to have Porsche like steering, but at the very minumum I do expect it to at least match a base 3 series, don't you? Don't know about others, but I consider steering feel on par in importance to the driving experience as I do the drive train. I would be only slightly less concerned if the 4 litre was anemic. It is a travesty that the M Division has has allowed marketing to tarnish an otherwise great car with Servotronic. Hint BMW, more assist is never a friend to feedback nor feel. Give me fake ISF exhausts anyday, it is a lot easier to fix than a whole steering system. Can only hope they will remedy the problem fairly quickly like they did on the early 90s 3 series. So why other focus on drag races and a 10th of a second here or there, I will lament on the steering feel of the M series dropping below the level of a 3 series...I know, details, details.

Issue #2, which I am sure is even less of a concern for M enthusiasts than the first issue. BMW has always had a well deserved reputation for getting great mileage per performance quotient. The dreaded 335 smokes the competition in performance and mileage. The 4.2 litre RS4 is two years older than the M3. The RS4 has higher displacement than the 4 litre and has more torque, dreaded all wheel drive, and lastly is saddled with close to 250 lbs more weight, yet is getting the same mileage as the M3. What am I missing here? Does it have something to do with inferior engineering from the efficient dynamics boys in Munich?

Finally, I read something absolutely remarkable in the December issue of C&D. It said the new GT2 pushing 530 hp and 505 lbs of torque has a projected Epa mileage rating of 17 city and 24 highway. I couldn't believe it, I thought it had to be a misprint. If it is only partly true it is a remarkable achievement. How does that compare to the 414 hp and 295 lbs of torque 4 litre in the M3? Much better indeed. Something to think about in regards to Porsche's upcoming power/mileage quotient they will soon be implementing into their other platforms. Like it or not, turbo charging is the wave of the future. Bet my bottom dollar the next M5 will have FI and so will the next M3. M execs have already hinted about it. What other choices do they have, drop a 7 litre V10 into a M5? What they should do is steal the engine specs of the Z06. So for the purists, hurry and get your blunt steering, normally aspirated, gas guzzling v8 with a stick before they become extinct. Who knows, maybe they will be worth a bit of money years down the road.

Happy Hallows Eve mates.

[swamp2]

Ruff, if you need convincing to not buy the car, I don't think you will find it here. Maybe spend more time on e90post or m3forum.com.

#1: I would no longer say it is accurate that "the preponderance of reports indicate it is an achiles heel". Shall we bother to count up reports and tally the ayes and nays? It is pretty simple here, ruff, you are beating the dead horse. Wait to drive the car yourself. I bet you will be able to decide if you like the steering in about 10 minutes. If I could run some simulations or regression on the steering I would

#2: Audi is rated at 14/21 mpg in the US. Evo reports getting about 18.5 US pmg (22.5 UK mpg) with their RS4 with a good mixture of commuting and actually using the V8. A 2000+ mi car from Filthy is getting about 20 mpg US. Sure only one data point but it does not look too bad. I would be shocked if an identically driven RS4 and M3 got the same mpg, the displacement, weight and drivetrain loss is not on it's side. However, DI, is on its side. Lastly it does appear the the "8% better" is pure BMW BS. Unfortunate, I too was looking forward to better consumption than my current M3, it will probably be worse, yet cleaner in many pollutant categories as well.

#3: I think you are right, FI is probably in Ms future. If they can maintain response and high revs why not? Supercharging would be pretty sweet. Lastly given your lung burning altitude I think you should go for a Vishnu 335i with coil overs. Seriously!

[ruff]

Swamp,
You would make a good financial advisor. If I went for the 335 I would have to go on and on about poor throttle response, overheating, run flats and worst of all, a lack of an LSD. BMW in their infinite wisdom welded the the differential making it much more difficult to give the 335 the LSD it so badly needs. I understand you don't like my negative analysis of the M3 because it rains on your M3 parade of praise.

Semantics aside, maybe I should hold you to your claims and you can count the reports that have mentioned a lack of feel in the steering vs those who have said it has good to excellent feed back and feel. You forced me to look up the Cayman performance numbers on a tight track. You know as well as I do, I speak the truth about the reports on steering feel. I don't understand your need to try and rationalize it away. You are more objective than that. I know I haven't drove it but you are also making a million assumptions about DCT that hasn't even been anounced yet. We are all getting info from the same sources. The only difference between you and I is if I point out a negative, I am beating a "dead horse" and need to give it a rest. If you point out a positive you get a ton of that a boy from the BMW fan boy faithful. So you don't think singing the M3 praises day after day post after post hasn't been covered or beat to death yet?

I am overly critical about all cars but I believe if we step away from the M Marque and it's addictive glow we can see the car as just a car because that is all it is. And if enough of us can remain halfway objective, we can get BMW to fix the steering by under engineering some feel back into it.

Take your BMW praises to other forums and see if your posting fortunes are as praiseworthy.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp,
You would make a good financial advisor. If I went for the 335 I would have to go on and on about poor throttle response, overheating, run flats and worst of all, a lack of an LSD. BMW in their infinite wisdom welded the the differential making it much more difficult to give the 335 the LSD it so badly needs. I understand you don't like my negative analysis of the M3 because it rains on your M3 parade of praise.

Swamp
Maybe I should hold you to your claims and you can count the reports that have mentioned a lack of feel in the steering vs those who have said it has good to excellent feed back and feel. You forced me to look up the Cayman performance numbers on a tight track. You know as well as I do, I speak the truth about the reports on steering feel. I don't understand your need to try and rationalize it away. You are more objective than that. I know I haven't drove it but you are also making a million assumptions about DCT that hasn't even been anounced yet. We are all getting info from the same sources. The only difference between you and me you is if I point out a negative, I am beating a "dead horse" and need to give it a rest. If you point out a positive you get a ton of that a boy from the BMW fan boy faithful. So you don't think singing the M3 praises day after day post after post hasn't been covered or beat to death yet?

I am overly critical about all cars but I believe if we step away from the M Marque and it's addictive glow we can see the car as just a car because that is all it is. And if enough of us can remain halfway objective, we can get BMW to fix the steering by under engineering some feel back into it.

Take your BMW praises to other forums and see if your posting fortunes are lucrative

I lean toward swamp's side of this debate. I've had a deposit down for 2 full years now, so to say I ws looking forward to the E92 is an understatement. I love my 2001, but I'm getting somewhat bored with it and just need something new. I, too, was very uneasy a few months ago, but the more I read of reviews and actual owners' feedback, the more excited I get again to own this car.

#1 Steering - I find as many neutral or good reports of the steering than negative. I think it will prove to be no worse than the E46 M3's, which I find not stellar, but just fine.

#2 Mileage - This concerns me some, as well. As an architect who practices "green" design in my projects, I try to be "sustainable" to a large degree in my private life, as well. I guess when it comes to cars I cut myself some slack on that, but no Hummers in my life. Since we don't have EPA test numbers yet, we have no hard data for the US. And since the test protocol is changing this year, it will be hard to correlate to last year's cars exactly. My guess is that the E92 will get similar mileage to the E46 when you take it easy, but once the foot goes down the graph will plummet.

#3 Forced Induction - Despite the M group's current stance, I, too, could imagine it being used on future M vehicles. Things are going to need to change. As long as the basic M performance and character targets are met, I don't care if they use FI, hydrogen or hybrid.

The bottom line for me is that I think the E92 will be an exciting and enjoyable car to drive. It doesn't have to be the best at any one thing, but the success of the M has been a melding of many capabilities into one machine. I don't see another car out there for anywhere close to its price that I would consider.

[ruff]

Greg,
Just a guess, your not a Republican?
Nice write up in C&D by the way.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by ruff

Greg,
Just a guess, your not a Republican?
Nice write up in C&D by the way.

No, you guess right, I'm not. My C&D letter was really lame now that I reread it. I think I had a couple glasses of wine and was being really picky. I'm surprised they published it. I'm sending a better one on this month's article.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp,
You would make a good financial advisor. If I went for the 335 I would have to go on and on about poor throttle response, overheating, run flats and worst of all, a lack of an LSD. BMW in their infinite wisdom welded the the differential making it much more difficult to give the 335 the LSD it so badly needs. I understand you don't like my negative analysis of the M3 because it rains on your M3 parade of praise.

Semantics aside, maybe I should hold you to your claims and you can count the reports that have mentioned a lack of feel in the steering vs those who have said it has good to excellent feed back and feel. You forced me to look up the Cayman performance numbers on a tight track. You know as well as I do, I speak the truth about the reports on steering feel. I don't understand your need to try and rationalize it away. You are more objective than that. I know I haven't drove it but you are also making a million assumptions about DCT that hasn't even been anounced yet. We are all getting info from the same sources. The only difference between you and I is if I point out a negative, I am beating a "dead horse" and need to give it a rest. If you point out a positive you get a ton of that a boy from the BMW fan boy faithful. So you don't think singing the M3 praises day after day post after post hasn't been covered or beat to death yet?

I am overly critical about all cars but I believe if we step away from the M Marque and it's addictive glow we can see the car as just a car because that is all it is. And if enough of us can remain halfway objective, we can get BMW to fix the steering by under engineering some feel back into it.

Take your BMW praises to other forums and see if your posting fortunes are as praiseworthy.

You have me wrong if you really think I don't like your post because it rains on anyones parade. I don't like it because it is repetitive, not novel and frankly a bit helpless. By the way I'd hardly call it an "analysis", more like a repeating of select journos...

Your points about settling for the 335i are significant (and some novel to me as a relative 335i noob). What is the comment about welding and the LSD though? Are you sure? Could that blow a hole in the argument about how cheap and easy it is to get a 335i to handle like the M3?

I will be the first to admit I am a big fan of the M3. I have not attempted to rationalize the steering feel away. May I remind you who was first to quote that terrible video review of the steering feel that mentioned something like "completely numb"? Can I remind you who slammed BMW on mutliple occasions for half truths about the weight, the mpg, the relative lack of innovation in the car, its lack of DI, greedy option packages and just today my comments to our friend Scott about BMW Marketing and DCT (trust you saw that one - if I do say so myself...). No matter how little or how much you may insinuate I am not a fanboy.

Not to get too OT but there are barely any assumptions nor any unreasonable ones in my recent DCT analysis. Sure it is techy, sure it really focuses on small gains but so what - not objective it does not make me. On the other hand I'm sure many here will agree with me that you do simply beat the dead horse on potential problems with the car. I know you are a fan, certainly not totally negative but your post simply rings of helplessness. Sorry if that sounds too harsh, it certainly does not mean you are helpless, but what can you really do? You need to stop worring about things you can't change and WAIT FOR A BLOODY DRIVE. At the same time I certainly don't mean you should not just post what is on your mind. That is what the forum is for!

I also disagree with you about where I get my information from as well as the repitition of my posts. My style and one clear goal in posting here is to bring objective, scientific and novel information to the table from my own work. Sure I have dug around on other sites and recycled or re-posted information when I thought it timely or relevant but your characterization of me here is simply not correct. I wouldn't say I am particulary guilty of singing the same praises over and over again. Sure I like to get my little M-DCT comments in here and there, but it is all in good fun. It is not a full page of gloating, ranting, boasting or signing the praises of BMW.

Your closing comment above is almost embarrasing ruff. Come on you can do better.

[ACZakka325i]

ruff, tell me what you REALLY currently drive....

[NavNurs]

Weakness x 5. Be patient and wait to drive the car if that is what you need. Then you may tell us what you think of it and we shall share our thoughts after WE do the same. Until then, go read a magazine and figure out if the new Accord is the car for you. Based upon what a gifted writer can put on the net/paper uou may figure it is the car for you and place an order. Until then , enough with the waste of time/posts/speculation.

[Davo2003]

Seems like alot of fuss. Alot of the most recent reports from actual buyers say the "poor steering feel" is hogwash. My 06 330i handled like a slot car, steering feel was impeccable, and average economy was 23MPG (USA) and I got 30MPG on the highway...it was normally aspirated, yes I know, six-cylinder etc. I guess my thoughts are if my 330i was a blast to drive, how can the new M3 be worse? Apples and oranges blah blah ya ya I know...anyway, I just think from what all I have read that the M3 will be pure exhilaration to drive regardless. I won't consider Audi, Mercedes or Lexus...I drove a Cayman for grins and thought my 330i had better feel...just my 2 cents.

[Just_me]

I've driven the new M3 V8. The steering is great. Period!
Make your own opinion, stop being a carmag *censur*.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by ruff

It is a travesty that the M Division has has allowed marketing to tarnish an otherwise great car with Servotronic. Hint BMW, more assist is never a friend to feedback nor feel. Give me fake ISF exhausts anyday, it is a lot easier to fix than a whole steering system. Can only hope they will remedy the problem fairly quickly like they did on the early 90s 3 series.

So much overwrought emotion. Its incredible you can feel so strongly that the steering tarnishes the car, is a travesty, etc. when you have never even seen an M3 in real life, let alone driven one.

The steering is feel is fine. It does not detract from the car. The feedback, effort and road feel are good. You will like it.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ruff

Reports in gerneral indicate that the steering of the e92 M3 is lacking feedback, some stating it is feeless and indicating it is not as good as the base 3 series. Let me repeat myself fellow M enthusiasts, not as good as the base 3 series.

Ruff, can you point to three sources who state this? I would like to read their reviews.

[Filthy Monkey]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Filthy is getting about 20 mpg US. Sure only one data point but it does not look too bad.

Just for the record, I drive pretty much everywhere like I have a couple of porn star twins waiting for me at the other end, so expect most people to get much better mileage than me...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Filthy Monkey

Just for the record, I drive pretty much everywhere like I have a couple of porn star twins waiting for me at the other end, so expect most people to get much better mileage than me...

Filth, can you post your average speed (from computer)?

I know that speed cannot tell us how hard the car has driven, but there is a rough correlation between average speed and economy. IOW, if you are averaging 20mph and getting 20mpg, that's pretty good. If you are averaging 60mph and getting 60mpg, that wouldn't be so good, even considering the hard driving. This because, presumably, the higher your average speed, the more highway miles you are doing (less stops, less changes in speed).

[swiss_cornholio]

Originally Posted by ruff

...

I highly recommend you get down from your remote valley once in a while, do a test drive and get some first hand information before BS'ing so much!

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp,
You would make a good financial advisor. If I went for the 335 I would have to go on and on about poor throttle response, overheating, run flats and worst of all, a lack of an LSD. BMW in their infinite wisdom welded the the differential making it much more difficult to give the 335 the LSD it so badly needs. I understand you don't like my negative analysis of the M3 because it rains on your M3 parade of praise.

Semantics aside, maybe I should hold you to your claims and you can count the reports that have mentioned a lack of feel in the steering vs those who have said it has good to excellent feed back and feel. You forced me to look up the Cayman performance numbers on a tight track. You know as well as I do, I speak the truth about the reports on steering feel. I don't understand your need to try and rationalize it away. You are more objective than that. I know I haven't drove it but you are also making a million assumptions about DCT that hasn't even been anounced yet. We are all getting info from the same sources. The only difference between you and I is if I point out a negative, I am beating a "dead horse" and need to give it a rest. If you point out a positive you get a ton of that a boy from the BMW fan boy faithful. So you don't think singing the M3 praises day after day post after post hasn't been covered or beat to death yet?

I am overly critical about all cars but I believe if we step away from the M Marque and it's addictive glow we can see the car as just a car because that is all it is. And if enough of us can remain halfway objective, we can get BMW to fix the steering by under engineering some feel back into it.

Take your BMW praises to other forums and see if your posting fortunes are as praiseworthy.

Didn't Alain Prost recently give a few words of praise to the M3's steering and handling? Obviously that guy must be mistaken. Probably doesn't know the first thing about high-performance cars.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Didn't Alain Prost recently give a few words of praise to the M3's steering and handling? Obviously that guy must be mistaken. Probably doesn't know the first thing about high-performance cars.

Prost obviously has not read enough magazines.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by ruff

The M3 is shaping up to be an excellent car. What makes a great car are the devil in the details.

This issue may be of no concern to anyone else, but to me, it is a major concern. Interestingly, I get flamed about every time I mention it. I wonder why? Reports in gerneral indicate that the steering of the e92 M3 is lacking feedback, some stating it is feeless and indicating it is not as good as the base 3 series. Let me repeat myself fellow M enthusiasts, not as good as the base 3 series. Red flag anyone? Now some of you will say not all reports are saying this....Well I can tell you and anyone else who have read the body of evidence thus far knows the preponderance of reports indicate it is an achiles heel to an otherwise great car. So if you want to rationalize it away, be my guest. I do not expect the M3 to have Porsche like steering, but at the very minumum I do expect it to at least match a base 3 series, don't you? Don't know about others, but I consider steering feel on par in importance to the driving experience as I do the drive train. I would be only slightly less concerned if the 4 litre was anemic. It is a travesty that the M Division has has allowed marketing to tarnish an otherwise great car with Servotronic. Hint BMW, more assist is never a friend to feedback nor feel. Give me fake ISF exhausts anyday, it is a lot easier to fix than a whole steering system. Can only hope they will remedy the problem fairly quickly like they did on the early 90s 3 series. So why other focus on drag races and a 10th of a second here or there, I will lament on the steering feel of the M series dropping below the level of a 3 series...I know, details, details.

Issue #2, which I am sure is even less of a concern for M enthusiasts than the first issue. BMW has always had a well deserved reputation for getting great mileage per performance quotient. The dreaded 335 smokes the competition in performance and mileage. The 4.2 litre RS4 is two years older than the M3. The RS4 has higher displacement than the 4 litre and has more torque, dreaded all wheel drive, and lastly is saddled with close to 250 lbs more weight, yet is getting the same mileage as the M3. What am I missing here? Does it have something to do with inferior engineering from the efficient dynamics boys in Munich?

Finally, I read something absolutely remarkable in the December issue of C&D. It said the new GT2 pushing 530 hp and 505 lbs of torque has a projected Epa mileage rating of 17 city and 24 highway. I couldn't believe it, I thought it had to be a misprint. If it is only partly true it is a remarkable achievement. How does that compare to the 414 hp and 295 lbs of torque 4 litre in the M3? Much better indeed. Something to think about in regards to Porsche's upcoming power/mileage quotient they will soon be implementing into their other platforms. Like it or not, turbo charging is the wave of the future. Bet my bottom dollar the next M5 will have FI and so will the next M3. M execs have already hinted about it. What other choices do they have, drop a 7 litre V10 into a M5? What they should do is steal the engine specs of the Z06. So for the purists, hurry and get your blunt steering, normally aspirated, gas guzzling v8 with a stick before they become extinct. Who knows, maybe they will be worth a bit of money years down the road.

Happy Hallows Eve mates.

+100

I always love your passion Ruff. Well spoken, even though I believe BMW missed it mark more than you hint at. The Redemption is that I'm starting to undersand BMW's facsination of smaller cars..


What, you say? No I'm not talking about the 3 series. But the new tii. That is your real contender for the Porsches.

BMW is bring back the clubsport mentality with smaller faster cars. The new M3 is a luxury cruiser, long... elegant! It's too big to be anything more than what it is.

All the technology is in the wrong place for it to be the sportcar many of us want.

Which is:



What your looking at is BMW's answer to Porsche's Cayman S!! Lighter, smaller and turbocharged...! Look, The M3 looks exactly like BMW invisioned it, even though it looks docile sitting next to the Tii


The M3 looks like a elder statesmen, while the 135tii looks like a rebellious prince!




-Garrett

[JEllis]

Ruff,

Although your posts are thought out and well informed, they are getting old. If you dont like the car, then dont buy it. So far everyone that has picked theirs up and reported back has nothing but good things to say. Save your opinions until you actually drive it instead of quoting us magazines that we have all already read.

Again, I like your posts (most of the time)... but honestly, this steering thing is getting old. Please drive the car and then post. Otherwise you are just quoting the same information we have already read, back to us.

Jason

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Your points about settling for the 335i are significant (and some novel to me as a relative 335i noob). What is the comment about welding and the LSD though? Are you sure? Could that blow a hole in the argument about how cheap and easy it is to get a 335i to handle like the M3?

I don't know. I think they found a way around that.

Thankfully mine is one of the earlier builds without the welded diff

But given that 335i's are circling tracks as fast as e92 M3's, and Cayman's do not have LSD either, does it really matter except in Auto-X? Having said that, I wish I had one, the Quaife is a good solution for $1600-$1800 installed, and BMW supposedly is going to start offering one just like they are for the 135i out of the performance catalog.

BTW, I agree with Swamp, et al...on the steering. I don't know HTF you complain about steering feel when you have never driven the car....

And the mileage is an issue, but just another way to ask how this engine is special when Audi had one out 2 years ago with virtually the same specs and performance?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Garrett

What your looking at is BMW's answer to Porsche's Cayman S!!

I'll take a Z4 M for that duty, please. And heck, since we are talking about cars you cannot buy yet, make that the S65 powered one coming soon. That'll even relieve some weight from the nose.