alignment /Toe recomendations on 235/265

[JeffchaPz]

Hello everyone, so last week I ordered new 235 front and 265 rears.

Obviously, it is wise to get the car aligned once the new tires are mounted but I want to know what toe, camber #s you reccomend for a DD car with the chace of seeing the track 3-4 times a year.

Currently I have OEM suspencion and rims.... I appraciate your help/comments.


Laterz!

[Kgolf31]

I run my front camber all the way out, 0 toe.

rear camber I have pulled all the way out, -1/4th total toe rear (-1/8th each wheel)

[Finnegan]

^ So max out stock negative camber, which is about ~ -1.3 front and ~-1.7 rear with those toe settings. (Or whatever you can get.)

You could always add 1 Turner camber washer (20 bucks or so) to the front to get -1.7 to -1.8. Zero toe up front. The negative camber gives better turn in, maybe a little more inside wear (not that I've seen, since the track days even out the wear since the negative camber preserves tires under track conditions).

[Kgolf31]

yup.

I ran -1/8th total toe in the rear and couldn't get power down. this new alignment I did this year is x10 better

[Kgolf31]

yup.

I ran -1/8th total toe in the rear and couldn't get power down. this new alignment I did this year is x10 better

[JeffchaPz]

Thanks for the info gents.... I appreciate it.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

yup.

I ran -1/8th total toe in the rear and couldn't get power down. this new alignment I did this year is x10 better

So the tightens up the rear end a bit and keeps it hooked in more under throttle (e.g. rolling on at apex and out of the apex)? And noticed improvement under heavy braking too?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

So the tightens up the rear end a bit and keeps it hooked in more under throttle (e.g. rolling on at apex and out of the apex)? And noticed improvement under heavy braking too?

Exactly.

Under braking the car feels much more planted. A friend who drove with me at Mid-Ohio couldn't believe how solid the car felt at ~120-130 down into China Beach under braking. His car was shimmying back and forth...I never had that issue

I can get on the throttle at APEX (especially during autox) and slowly roll on the throttle as I track out. Previously I would have to start on throttle once the car was starting to point in the direction I wanted it to go, and that was 3/4ths of the way through the corner.

Even at that, I was getting some heavy oversteer and had to do a lot of correction to fix it and keep on the throttle.

I know more tire wear is a direct result of this new alignment, but I won't go back to that alignment setting in the rear.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Exactly.

Under braking the car feels much more planted. A friend who drove with me at Mid-Ohio couldn't believe how solid the car felt at ~120-130 down into China Beach under braking. His car was shimmying back and forth...I never had that issue

I can get on the throttle at APEX (especially during autox) and slowly roll on the throttle as I track out. Previously I would have to start on throttle once the car was starting to point in the direction I wanted it to go, and that was 3/4ths of the way through the corner.

Even at that, I was getting some heavy oversteer and had to do a lot of correction to fix it and keep on the throttle.

I know more tire wear is a direct result of this new alignment, but I won't go back to that alignment setting in the rear.

Perfect. I'm going to change settings (running less toe in than you) and lock down the rear end a bit. Thanks.

[JeffchaPz]

KGOLF.... so what are exactly the numbers you recommend or what should I get with my current set up?

Lets hope the tire alignment place does what I ask - not what BMW recommends.


Many thanks gents.

Jeff.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by JeffchaPz

KGOLF.... so what are exactly the numbers you recommend or what should I get with my current set up?

Lets hope the tire alignment place does what I ask - not what BMW recommends.


Many thanks gents.

Jeff.

I have camber shims up front, so I'm around -2.3* camber at 0 toe up front.

fair warning, 0 toe up front will make the car a bit twitchy. the car will want to tramline on the highway and take sudden darts if it catches a rut. I can live with it because I'm young, not saying you can't or anyone older than me can't, but it isn't for everyone.

in the rear I have the tires pulled out as much as possible. I think it ended up around -1.7*, but this max value will vary.

for toe, I ended up doing -1/8th of an inch toe IN on each side, or 1/4 toe total. like I mentioned above, I ran leas toe before and I didn't like how the rear end behaved.

[Incompatible]

Great thread/discussion! While trying to following this and other threads on suspension setup, toe is expressed in fractions of an inch (1/16, 1/8...) or degrees (0.05, 0.18....). Is there a conversion factor between the two or is this something which is variable dependent on tire diameter at the circumference? I'm trying to make sense of my alignment numbers which are expressed in degrees. TIA

[JeffchaPz]

Kgolf... I appreciate the info and I know what you mean when you say the car gets twitchy.... I always have one hand on the wheel because of this.

Now, I don't have camber shims.... so I'm not sure I can go to -2.3

Does anyone know what BMW recommends??

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Finnegan

Perfect. I'm going to change settings (running less toe in than you) and lock down the rear end a bit. Thanks.

+1 going to give it a try.
I will gladly sacrifice a little more tire wear for better traction tracking out.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by Incompatible

Great thread/discussion! While trying to following this and other threads on suspension setup, toe is expressed in fractions of an inch (1/16, 1/8...) or degrees (0.05, 0.18....). Is there a conversion factor between the two or is this something which is variable dependent on tire diameter at the circumference? I'm trying to make sense of my alignment numbers which are expressed in degrees. TIA

Should be a conversion somewhere. I need to look at my alignment spec because I know they show degrees and inches

Originally Posted by JeffchaPz

Kgolf... I appreciate the info and I know what you mean when you say the car gets twitchy.... I always have one hand on the wheel because of this.

Now, I don't have camber shims.... so I'm not sure I can go to -2.3

Does anyone know what BMW recommends??

Good question. I should look on my alignment sheet to see what original specs where

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

+1 going to give it a try.
I will gladly sacrifice a little more tire wear for better traction tracking out.

Yea, it is double the toe-in but it is amazing what the difference was.

Total confidence getting on the gas over Madness and into Thunder Valley at Mid-Ohio. Both difficult, off camber turns that is easy to step the rear out

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by Incompatible

Great thread/discussion! While trying to following this and other threads on suspension setup, toe is expressed in fractions of an inch (1/16, 1/8...) or degrees (0.05, 0.18....). Is there a conversion factor between the two or is this something which is variable dependent on tire diameter at the circumference? I'm trying to make sense of my alignment numbers which are expressed in degrees. TIA

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Should be a conversion somewhere. I need to look at my alignment spec because I know they show degrees and inches

I'm not aware of a direct conversion, as deg measurement is finite regardless of wheel size.
Inch measurement is somewhat arbitrary depending on the distance of reference point from the wheel hub.
You can have the same toe but a larger number depending how far away from the hub you measure.

There are several manufactures of toe plates. IDK if they all use the same length.
If anyone is aware of a standard for inch measurement i would be interested to know.

For my alignments I use the wheel rim (18")
someone with 20" wheels and using the same method would end up with different toe if they were both set to -1/8"

[Kgolf31]

Here is what I found:

Toe in Degrees = aTan(Toe in Inches/Rim Diameter), per wheel
Toe in Inches = Rim Diameter * Tan(Toe in Degrees), per wheel

[Incompatible]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

I'm not aware of a direct conversion, as deg measurement is finite regardless of wheel size.
Inch measurement is somewhat arbitrary depending on the distance of reference point from the wheel hub.
You can have the same toe but a larger number depending how far away from the hub you measure.

There are several manufactures of toe plates. IDK if they all use the same length.
If anyone is aware of a standard for inch measurement i would be interested to know.

For my alignments I use the wheel rim (18")
someone with 20" wheels and using the same method would end up with different toe if they were both set to -1/8"

That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Basic trig function solving for the Tangent variable.

What you do bring up is where the inch measurement is taken, off the rim or off the outside diameter of the tire. For values specified in inches, where the measurement was taken is critical, for degrees it does not matter.

Thanks to inTgr8r and Kgolf31!

[JeffchaPz]

Quick update:

I told the tech to remove the pins and it looks like he didn't.

So I ended up with
front left camber -1.16 and -1.28 on the right
rear Left camber -17.3 and -1.51 on the right


The tech also wrote down that I need a bigger cam bolt for the rear right wheel.... does that make sense?

I would like to end with probably -2.0 in the front and -1.8 in the rear.

What hardware would you recommend in order to achieve something like that?

---------------------------------------
A special thanks to Ron for clarifying my questions.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by JeffchaPz

Quick update:

I told the tech to remove the pins and it looks like he didn't.

So I ended up with
front left camber -1.16 and -1.28 on the right
rear Left camber -17.3 and -1.51 on the right


The tech also wrote down that I need a bigger cam bolt for the rear right wheel.... does that make sense?

I would like to end with probably -2.0 in the front and -1.8 in the rear.

What hardware would you recommend in order to achieve something like that?

---------------------------------------
A special thanks to Ron for clarifying my questions.

Shim kit would get you the camber you want in the front.

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by JeffchaPz

Quick update:

I told the tech to remove the pins and it looks like he didn't.

So I ended up with
front left camber -1.16 and -1.28 on the right
rear Left camber -17.3 and -1.51 on the right


The tech also wrote down that I need a bigger cam bolt for the rear right wheel.... does that make sense?

I would like to end with probably -2.0 in the front and -1.8 in the rear.

What hardware would you recommend in order to achieve something like that?

---------------------------------------
A special thanks to Ron for clarifying my questions.

You're welcome!

Front is easy to acheive using the Turner camber washer kit. See this thread for everything you'd ever need to know. 2 washers will easily get you to -2.0, and allow adjustment between ~-1.7 - ~-2.6 by moving the struts in/out.

They're suggesting a that the reason they could only get to -1.5 on the right is that there's limited adjustment left with the cam bolt. While that could be addressed with a different bolt, the better question is why it's needed at all. Are there suspension parts that are bent?

Other options are adjustible camber arms (also Turner) or rear adjustible camber bushings. If the camber arm is bent, the adjustible aren't a bad replacement, but the install will probably be more than the parts given the disassembly / reassembly required. If you're going to do that, I'd consider replacing the bushings while you're at it (depending on mileage).