different Evolve tune review...

john335coupe · 08-21-2011, 04:29 PM

First off I'd like to say that the customer service from Sal and others at Evolve has been great.

I made 3 baseline runs the day before I installed the tune. I used the dynolicious iphone app. I know many of you might discount this as an effective or accurate way to gauge acceleration but I've found it to be surprisingly accurate or consistent at the least.

I'm at 5800 ft elevation so the numbers will seem low. That's what happens to NA cars up here. They cannot breath...

Baseline average of 3 runs
using LC
0-30 2.06 sec.
0-60 5.42 sec.
0-100 13.42 sec.

no LC
0-30 2.75 sec.
0-60 5.98 sec.
0-100 13.32

My e92 m3 dct has about 35000 miles on it and has a pulley, afe stage 2 intake and dinan rear exhaust.

I then flashed as directed by Evolve and spent some time on the phone with Sal who was very helpful fixing some of the initial problems.

Drove for at least 50 miles so that computer could adapt.

Ran 3 more runs using the dynolicious app on the same road in the same direction at almost the same outside temp. and had some interesting results.

using LC average of 3 runs
0-30 2.17 sec.
0-60 5.52 sec.
0-100 13.64 sec.

no LC
0-30 2.88 sec.
0-60 6.41 sec.
0-100 14.11

As you can see after the Evolve flash. the car did not accelerate as fast. I was shocked by these numbers because my butt dyno was telling me it was a little quicker... I tried everything to get the car to get better times.

1/4 mile mph were similar. There was nothing I could do to get the et and mph to be better after the flash.

I then put the stock tune back on the car and drove for about 20 miles and ran another time. Here is the results using LC:

using LC
0-30 2.15 sec.
0-60 5.49 sec.
0-100 13.57 sec.

I emailed Sal at Evolve and told him I was not seeing any gains and to see if another tune would be better suited for my car. I know little about tunes so I was thinking that maybe my car had a tune that was too conservative...and even more conservative than stock tune. If there was nothing they could do, I requested a refund.

Sorry I don't have a different story to tell. Believe me I really wanted one.

John

1MOREMOD · 08-21-2011, 04:42 PM

Very interesting. Nice to have the iphone apps data. May not be perfect but sounds like its consistent enough to give you an idea what was happening. Hope this isn't true for the tune across the board. Maybe an elevation thing?

lukester · 08-21-2011, 04:56 PM

hmm...even if this is just a NA engine and only +/- 10-15HP (at 8200rpm) are gainable...
something is wrong here.
Didn't Evolve try to send you a new tune?

john335coupe · 08-21-2011, 06:25 PM

They have not sent me anything as of yet. Last Sal told me that I had the same tune as everybody else. This was a few days ago. They have not responded to my last email which was Friday, requesting a better tune or a refund. I was really looking to a document-able gain from a tune. I figured if you could feel it then the numbers would show a gain. The opposite is here. The tune actually slowed the car and when the original tune was put back on the performance increased... I hope something can be done.

John

1MOREMOD · 08-21-2011, 07:20 PM

Subscribed. Let us know the results. I feel like my evolve tune pulls harder and would hope it results in a measureable increase in performance. Sal and paul will get back with you tomorrow and fix this I'm sure. I'm running the new tuner protected stage 2.

gthal · 08-21-2011, 07:55 PM

A little off topic... I was able to get 4.39s on 0-60 with Dynolicious with LC off. At close to sea level.

Very interested in how this plays out.

Taz@Evolve. P · 08-21-2011, 08:00 PM

Hi John,

Our engineer will be in touch tomorrow, had the weekend off and your message didn't come through till 11pm on Friday so missed it. Sure it's either a loading issue or file issue, there certainly are gains so we just need to find where the problem is.

Thanks
Paul

john335coupe · 08-21-2011, 08:36 PM

Paul

Thanks. You guys have my files. Shoot me a new one and I'm glad to give it a shot. After all I would not have done this in the first place if I was not looking for performance gains. I do however need those gains to be documentable.

john

kyleb350 · 08-22-2011, 12:11 AM

I know it might cost a bit more, but the true way to see any gains would be an actual dyno

Mahmood07 · 08-22-2011, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall$treet

I think this goes to show the car is tuned optimally from the factory and many tunes out there give you "butt dyno" feeling by modulating throttle response and increasing smoothness of the pulls but in the end I really believe a tuned car is at best equally fast to stock and likely slower in most cases as this evidenced.

You have to think and realize that the m3 is already getting piss poor gas milage so clearly M did not have to de-tune the car or compromise with a/f ratios and vanos parameters in order to compromise for good efficiency and performance like other models. They used the parameters probably for a reason and max performance.

No offense to any tuner but I would think the M engineers are leaps and bounds more educated and experienced than 99 percent of the independant tuners out there playing around on the computer. Trust in the M department-they know what they are doing.

What you said is simply not true. It has been proven that these tunes add power, and it is not something new to tune the ECU for power

.

NRing · 08-22-2011, 01:17 AM

if you want to get a "tune", just get www.sprintboostersales.com. it also does not make your car faster but most will think it does. and it is much cheaper.

gthal · 08-22-2011, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall$treet

I think this goes to show the car is tuned optimally from the factory and many tunes out there give you "butt dyno" feeling by modulating throttle response and increasing smoothness of the pulls but in the end I really believe a tuned car is at best equally fast to stock and likely slower in most cases as this evidenced.

Not true... how can you possibly take one non-scientific comparison and make this statement. First, who knows if the tune was properly implemented on his car. Second, there is a TON of evidence that these tunes add measurable and real power. More power = faster, period. You can't ignore the wide body of non-subjective evidence and rely on one member's bad experience. You have already convinced yourself that tunes are not worthwhile, in your opinion, and you want to take every piece of evidence, good or bad, to prove your opinion but you are clearly ignoring the vast majority of evidence (dynos, the Evolve video) to the contrary.

People who know FAR more about this than you and I would NOT agree than the M3 is tuned "optimally" from the factory. It is a compromise tune because the vehicle has to meet a wide range of needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall$treet

No offense to any tuner but I would think the M engineers are leaps and bounds more educated and experienced than 99 percent of the independant tuners out there playing around on the computer. Trust in the M department-they know what they are doing.

Although this may be true, that does NOT mean the BMW engineers are programming the engines for maximum potential output/power. They are leaving large tolerances and making compromises for the broader market. Could they "tune" more power from factory? Yes. Could then maybe even "tune" more power than the independent shops? Maybe, yes. But just because they could does not mean they did... cause they didn't.

LiM3y · 08-22-2011, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NRing

if you want to get a "tune", just get www.sprintboostersales.com. it also does not make your car faster but most will think it does. and it is much cheaper.

+1.

Singletrack · 08-22-2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall$treet

I think this goes to show the car is tuned optimally from the factory and many tunes out there give you "butt dyno" feeling by modulating throttle response and increasing smoothness of the pulls but in the end I really believe a tuned car is at best equally fast to stock and likely slower in most cases as this evidenced.

You have to think and realize that the m3 is already getting piss poor gas milage so clearly M did not have to de-tune the car or compromise with a/f ratios and vanos parameters in order to compromise for good efficiency and performance like other models. They used the parameters probably for a reason and max performance.

No offense to any tuner but I would think the M engineers are leaps and bounds more educated and experienced than 99 percent of the independant tuners out there playing around on the computer. Trust in the M department-they know what they are doing.

Pretty poor inductive reasoning.

john335coupe · 08-22-2011, 09:00 AM

I'm pretty sure the tune "took" to at least some degree since the cold rough start was gone immediately after the tune. There was a definite difference after the tune. Like some of you have said, it could have been throttle mapping and other things.

Sal wrote me and said he is working on another tune for me and will get it to me asap. I will keep everyone informed as to the results.

John

M3DCTBT · 08-22-2011, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john335coupe

I'm pretty sure the tune "took" to at least some degree since the cold rough start was gone immediately after the tune. There was a definite difference after the tune. Like some of you have said, it could have been throttle mapping and other things.

Sal wrote me and said he is working on another tune for me and will get it to me asap. I will keep everyone informed as to the results.

John

Take it to a real dyno - with AFR and ignition logging. Allow the men at Evolve to do their thing based on that. Making a new tune blindly with none of this info will not help you.

Even though this DME is target based. I've seen a few cars come in with AFR's in the 10's up top with various popular tunes on the market. That will slow it down for sure. Also it would nice to see 3rd party data as I only remember seeing one evolve 3rd party tune done in California at one of alexshop/pg's dyno days and it's results weren't stellar.

Singletrack · 08-22-2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3DCTBT

Take it to a real dyno - with AFR and ignition logging. Allow the men at Evolve to do their thing based on that. Making a new tune blindly with none of this info will not help you.

Even though this DME is target based. I've seen a few cars come in with AFR's in the 10's up top with various popular tunes on the market. That will slow it down for sure. Also it would nice to see 3rd party data as I only remember seeing one evolve 3rd party tune done in California at one of alexshop/pg's dyno days and it's results weren't stellar.

I agree that it would be nice to see more 3rd party results, but the car on aleks' dyno was close to a dinan car with higher octane and more modifications.

IMG · 08-22-2011, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singletrack

I agree that it would be nice to see more 3rd
party results, but the car on aleks' dyno was close to a dinan car
with higher octane and more modifications.

The Alekshop dyno (347whp, 258wtq) showed results that were about
10-12whp over a bone stock car. But the catch was that the car in
the Alekshop dyno had a quite a few other mods:
* Macht Schnell Air Filter
* RPI Air Scoops
* Primary CAT Delete
* Turner Test/Cross Pipe
* Evolve Stage-2 ECU Tune

This tells me that the majority of the gains over stock came from
the cat delete and air filter, as these are very well documented
and quantifiable gains. The dyno results are published in the
Dyno Database (www.bmwdynodatabase.com) for anybody to access.
The files are available for download so anybody can look at them
an scrutinize the results.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=399

The Dinan car from the same day made 359whp, and 257wtq. These
were the only two NA M3's on the dyno that day.
http://bmw.pencilgeek.org/showDyno.php?recID=390

Bone stock cars on this dyno range from 336-343whp.

The results are all in the public domain for anybody who tries to
find them. Until more independant dynos are done, it's hard to
say if the Alekshop and OP's results are the norm, or not.

GT3 Tim · 08-22-2011, 10:20 AM

Does "adaptation" come into play here?

ie: Doesn't the DME, etc. need to "adapt" to the new settings before a dyno would show the true gains from a given tune?

That has always been my understanding from talking to tuners such as Jim Conforti, etc.

Paul, comments?

Non-tuners, unless you know tuning, and how it really "works", save the newb comments.

kyleb350 · 08-22-2011, 10:25 AM

^^Correct. It even mentions the adaption period in the instructions for this tune.

stega · 08-22-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT3 Tim

Does "adaptation" come into play here?

ie: Doesn't the DME, etc. need to "adapt" to the new settings before a dyno would show the true gains from a given tune?

That has always been my understanding from talking to tuners such as Jim Conforti, etc.

Paul, comments?

Non-tuners, unless you know tuning, and how it really "works", save the newb comments.

The OP said he drove for "at least" 50 miles to let the car adapt to the tune...

He may have needed a bit more?? 100?

wdd1040 · 08-22-2011, 10:35 AM

How much wheelspin was there on these launches? It could be additional wheelspin causing slower acceleration.

Maybe test 60-130? Or even just 10-100?

08-21-2011, 04:29 PM	#1
john335coupe 08 e92 M3 DCT, Pulley, AFE stage 2 intake, Dinan 15 Rep 114 Posts Drives: Tesla Model S, e92 M3 DCT Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (1)	different Evolve tune review... First off I'd like to say that the customer service from Sal and others at Evolve has been great. I made 3 baseline runs the day before I installed the tune. I used the dynolicious iphone app. I know many of you might discount this as an effective or accurate way to gauge acceleration but I've found it to be surprisingly accurate or consistent at the least. I'm at 5800 ft elevation so the numbers will seem low. That's what happens to NA cars up here. They cannot breath... Baseline average of 3 runs using LC 0-30 2.06 sec. 0-60 5.42 sec. 0-100 13.42 sec. no LC 0-30 2.75 sec. 0-60 5.98 sec. 0-100 13.32 My e92 m3 dct has about 35000 miles on it and has a pulley, afe stage 2 intake and dinan rear exhaust. I then flashed as directed by Evolve and spent some time on the phone with Sal who was very helpful fixing some of the initial problems. Drove for at least 50 miles so that computer could adapt. Ran 3 more runs using the dynolicious app on the same road in the same direction at almost the same outside temp. and had some interesting results. using LC average of 3 runs 0-30 2.17 sec. 0-60 5.52 sec. 0-100 13.64 sec. no LC 0-30 2.88 sec. 0-60 6.41 sec. 0-100 14.11 As you can see after the Evolve flash. the car did not accelerate as fast. I was shocked by these numbers because my butt dyno was telling me it was a little quicker... I tried everything to get the car to get better times. 1/4 mile mph were similar. There was nothing I could do to get the et and mph to be better after the flash. I then put the stock tune back on the car and drove for about 20 miles and ran another time. Here is the results using LC: using LC 0-30 2.15 sec. 0-60 5.49 sec. 0-100 13.57 sec. I emailed Sal at Evolve and told him I was not seeing any gains and to see if another tune would be better suited for my car. I know little about tunes so I was thinking that maybe my car had a tune that was too conservative...and even more conservative than stock tune. If there was nothing they could do, I requested a refund. Sorry I don't have a different story to tell. Believe me I really wanted one. John
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08-21-2011, 04:42 PM	#2
1MOREMOD - 11817 Rep 23,187 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	Very interesting. Nice to have the iphone apps data. May not be perfect but sounds like its consistent enough to give you an idea what was happening. Hope this isn't true for the tune across the board. Maybe an elevation thing? __________________ 02 Tiag e46 M3\|6MT\|GC plates\|MCS c.o.\|GC bars\|GC race control arms\|GC bushings\|BW eng. & tran. mounts\|subframe kit\|BW race shifter\|BW Jaffster\|Euro header\|BW exhaust\|K&N c.a.i.\|Epic race tune\|Rouge pulleys\|Seibon CF hood\|CSL bumper\|apr gt 250 & splitter\|ST-40\|XR-2\|SS lines\|half cage\|Recaro profi\|Profi 2 harness\|BMWpedals\|BW studs\|
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08-21-2011, 04:56 PM	#3
lukester First Lieutenant 313 Rep 359 Posts Drives: BMW M3 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Munich, Germany iTrader: (0)	hmm...even if this is just a NA engine and only +/- 10-15HP (at 8200rpm) are gainable... something is wrong here. Didn't Evolve try to send you a new tune? __________________ lukecustoms on youtube: pedal to the metal => KLICK HERE .
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08-21-2011, 06:25 PM	#4
john335coupe 08 e92 M3 DCT, Pulley, AFE stage 2 intake, Dinan 15 Rep 114 Posts Drives: Tesla Model S, e92 M3 DCT Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (1)	They have not sent me anything as of yet. Last Sal told me that I had the same tune as everybody else. This was a few days ago. They have not responded to my last email which was Friday, requesting a better tune or a refund. I was really looking to a document-able gain from a tune. I figured if you could feel it then the numbers would show a gain. The opposite is here. The tune actually slowed the car and when the original tune was put back on the performance increased... I hope something can be done. John
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08-21-2011, 07:20 PM	#5
1MOREMOD - 11817 Rep 23,187 Posts Drives: Race car-> Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: check your mirrors iTrader: (5)	Subscribed. Let us know the results. I feel like my evolve tune pulls harder and would hope it results in a measureable increase in performance. Sal and paul will get back with you tomorrow and fix this I'm sure. I'm running the new tuner protected stage 2. __________________ 02 Tiag e46 M3\|6MT\|GC plates\|MCS c.o.\|GC bars\|GC race control arms\|GC bushings\|BW eng. & tran. mounts\|subframe kit\|BW race shifter\|BW Jaffster\|Euro header\|BW exhaust\|K&N c.a.i.\|Epic race tune\|Rouge pulleys\|Seibon CF hood\|CSL bumper\|apr gt 250 & splitter\|ST-40\|XR-2\|SS lines\|half cage\|Recaro profi\|Profi 2 harness\|BMWpedals\|BW studs\|
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08-21-2011, 07:55 PM	#6
gthal Major General 1904 Rep 5,678 Posts Drives: 2018 340i xDrive Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Canada iTrader: (2)	A little off topic... I was able to get 4.39s on 0-60 with Dynolicious with LC off. At close to sea level. Very interested in how this plays out. __________________ 2020 X3 M40i \| Black \| Current DD 2020 C8 Corvette \| Z51 \| Torch Red ... built and waiting for delivery 2016 M2 \| Long Beach Blue \| 6MT 2015 M4 \| Austin Yellow \| DCT 2012 MB C63AMG \| 2011 E92 M3 \| 2010 E92 M3
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08-21-2011, 08:00 PM	#7
Taz@Evolve. P BimmerPost Supporting Vendor 28 Rep 301 Posts Drives: Quick enough Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: US iTrader: (1)	Hi John, Our engineer will be in touch tomorrow, had the weekend off and your message didn't come through till 11pm on Friday so missed it. Sure it's either a loading issue or file issue, there certainly are gains so we just need to find where the problem is. Thanks Paul
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08-21-2011, 08:36 PM	#8
john335coupe 08 e92 M3 DCT, Pulley, AFE stage 2 intake, Dinan 15 Rep 114 Posts Drives: Tesla Model S, e92 M3 DCT Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (1)	Paul Thanks. You guys have my files. Shoot me a new one and I'm glad to give it a shot. After all I would not have done this in the first place if I was not looking for performance gains. I do however need those gains to be documentable. john
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08-22-2011, 12:11 AM	#9
kyleb350 Brigadier General 424 Rep 4,709 Posts Drives: '21 X3MC Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Milwaukee iTrader: (6)	I know it might cost a bit more, but the true way to see any gains would be an actual dyno
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08-22-2011, 01:17 AM	#11
NRing Private 0 Rep 69 Posts Drives: BMWs Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Deutschland iTrader: (0)	if you want to get a "tune", just get www.sprintboostersales.com. it also does not make your car faster but most will think it does. and it is much cheaper.
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08-22-2011, 09:00 AM	#15
john335coupe 08 e92 M3 DCT, Pulley, AFE stage 2 intake, Dinan 15 Rep 114 Posts Drives: Tesla Model S, e92 M3 DCT Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (1)	I'm pretty sure the tune "took" to at least some degree since the cold rough start was gone immediately after the tune. There was a definite difference after the tune. Like some of you have said, it could have been throttle mapping and other things. Sal wrote me and said he is working on another tune for me and will get it to me asap. I will keep everyone informed as to the results. John
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08-22-2011, 10:20 AM	#19
GT3 Tim Moderator 94 Rep 1,920 Posts Drives: 2014 MB E63S Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sacramento, CA iTrader: (0)	Does "adaptation" come into play here? ie: Doesn't the DME, etc. need to "adapt" to the new settings before a dyno would show the true gains from a given tune? That has always been my understanding from talking to tuners such as Jim Conforti, etc. Paul, comments? Non-tuners, unless you know tuning, and how it really "works", save the newb comments. __________________ Tim <--- apparently likes "3" cars 2014 E63S -- The Rocket 2014 F30 328i -- Kids car 2008 E90 M3 -- Sold 2004 GT3 -- Sold 1997 M3/4 -- Sold 1995 M3 -- Sold
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08-22-2011, 10:25 AM	#20
kyleb350 Brigadier General 424 Rep 4,709 Posts Drives: '21 X3MC Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Milwaukee iTrader: (6)	^^Correct. It even mentions the adaption period in the instructions for this tune.
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08-22-2011, 10:35 AM	#22
wdd1040 Private First Class 5 Rep 117 Posts Drives: '08 e92 M3 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Orlando, Fl iTrader: (0)	How much wheelspin was there on these launches? It could be additional wheelspin causing slower acceleration. Maybe test 60-130? Or even just 10-100?
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