cracked sump

[polly]

hi

my e90 m3 (the love of my life) has 8000km on the clock. 3 weeks ago i hit a rock in the road at low speed (about 80km/h). i drove on for about 2 km when i noticed smoke from my rear mirror. i immediatly stoped (no warning lights came on) jumped off and noticed oil dripping from sump. called in bmw to tow car. i cracked the corner of sump. a new sump was ordred and put in.
does any one know if there would be long term damage to the engine. accorong to the dealer the car runs on a dry sump so there is no damage. is that true? when i had to put the car on the flatbed trailer i started it to get in it N. (its a dct).

since i picked up the car i did a 900km road trip.no problems yet.

[BCA]

It think you should be fine. The only thing that would have caused engine damage is oil level too low, and you would have gotten a warning message if that had happened.

[Gkap]

you should be fine.

[Gearhead999s]

I have cracked a sump before on a E30 and as long as the engine was running the leak was minimal because of the crankcase vacuum.Shut it off and the oil poured out.You will be OK.

[James T. Kirk]

You're fine. You did the right thing in stopping the car immediately.

[saeedg48]

you're more than fine - you have a new sump

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by James T. Kirk

You're fine. You did the right thing in stopping the car immediately.

+1.......I can't say for sure, but I have found with all generations of ///Ms they seem to think about the worst case scenario, i.e., what if the customer did X, Y, & Z. They seem to think about the most common happenings (and believe me yours is concerned common, especially here in the U.S. with all of our potholes in the northeast) and design the car not to completely "fail" if these things were to happen.

Don't worry, your car is fine, and will be fine for many, many, many more miles

Cheers,
e46e92

[Kyoshi71]

If you stopped immediately, not a problem at all.

[polly]

thanks all you guys for the replys
what is a wet sump?

also like to mention that, the car was parked at the dealer for two weeks waiting for the sump to arrive from germany. when i picked up the car and drove for first 10min i got a warning saying the oil is 1ltr short. drove back and the dealer filled up oil. he said when he test drove the day before the oil was fine. how can the oil go from being fine to 1ltr short in 1 day. may be he not being honest with me.

by the way i traded in my c63 for this baby. and will never turn back.
what a great car to drive.

[Rshane]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

Your engine is NOT a dry sump. It is a 10-qt wet sump.

It takes a long time for 10 quarts of oil to leak out and run bone dry before you would have done any damage. As the others have said...you are fine.

What he said. I drives me nuts when people that make a living in the car business have no clue about the cars they sell.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

I have cracked a sump before on a E30 and as long as the engine was running the leak was minimal because of the crankcase vacuum.Shut it off and the oil poured out. You will be OK.

Correction: The S65 does indeed use a Positive crankcase ventilation system but I just never noticed it when my intake plenum was off. I apologize for the misinformation. Please disregard the info in my post below...... the engine uses the breathers with integral oil separators in tandem with a conventional PCV system.

No PCV system on the S65..... just two breathers with integral oil seperators that send crankcase vapor up to the plenum. You can see these on the top of each valve cover. Since the throttle plates are downstream of the plenum there is very little vacuum present in the plenum...... Vacuum will only be present in the runners downstream of the throttle plates which is where the M3 takes it's vacuum from for the brake booster.

To the OP, as long as you never got a low oil pressure warning you are ok and there will be no damage.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by polly

accorong to the dealer the car runs on a dry sump so there is no damage.

What an idiot. As it was said, it's a wet sump. And it has TWO .

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

This allows you to run as much oil as you want (2 gallons, 3 gallons, etc) as the oil is being held external to the motor. This design is traditionally more efficient and draws less power from the motor -- meaning you will end up with more power to the wheels. The down side: it's expensive.

You forgot probably the best feature of a dry sump engine: LOWER CENTER OF GRAVITY . You can place a dry-sump engine lower in the car, with the same ground clearance. It also helps with a lower hood line.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

No PCV system on the S65..... just two breathers with integral oil seperators that send crankcase vapor up to the plenum.

You just described a PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system . That's all there is to it. And yes, we have 2 of those. A lot of those 'valves' let a lot of oil fumes into the intake, and that's not good. An extreme example are the ones in Vettes, where you absolutely need a catch can. When I removed the plenum, didn't feel any oily film right by the TBs, but only had a few thousand miles. Next time I remove it will be a better gauge, but with 2 'valves', we're better off than most.

[008]

[QUOTE=elp_jc;8635612]
You forgot probably the best feature of a dry sump engine: LOWER CENTER OF GRAVITY . You can place a dry-sump engine lower in the car, with the same ground clearance. It also helps with a lower hood line.

[QUOTE]

The best feature is the fact that during sustained lateral and horizontal forces the engine will continue to receive its oil supply!

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

What an idiot. As it was said, it's a wet sump. And it has TWO .


You forgot probably the best feature of a dry sump engine: LOWER CENTER OF GRAVITY . You can place a dry-sump engine lower in the car, with the same ground clearance. It also helps with a lower hood line.

You just described a PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) system . That's all there is to it. And yes, we have 2 of those. A lot of those 'valves' let a lot of oil fumes into the intake, and that's not good. An extreme example are the ones in Vettes, where you absolutely need a catch can. When I removed the plenum, didn't feel any oily film right by the TBs, but only had a few thousand miles. Next time I remove it will be a better gauge, but with 2 'valves', we're better off than most.

Correction: Although my description of and the difference between a crankcase breather system and a PCV system that as explained below were correct, my information stating that the S65 does not have a PCV system was not. The S65 does indeed use a PCV system in tandem with the oil separators/breathers, I just never noticed the PCV line/check valve when the plenum was off of the car. I apologize for the misinformation.


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...17&hg=11&fg=15

A PCV System is not an open breather type system like we have.

A PCV system has a one way check valve in it and uses engine vacuum to provide "POSITIVE" crankcase ventilation. This type of system pulls the crankcase vapours into the intake manifold using manifold vacuum. The reason for the check valve is under full throttle engine vacuum is lost so this check valve closes to maintain vacuum in the crankcase until the throttle position is decreased and the engine starts making vacuum again. The Vacuum is what makes it positive.

The only place you have vacuum in a gasoline engine is downstream of the throttle plate(s). Our breathers are vented into the plenum where there is no significant vacuum present (except the extremely minor vacuum of ~1 in Hg or less that is created by the air filter restriction at maximum power) so the system is not a PCV system, but rather a crankcase breather system like a diesel engine uses (diesel engines make no vacuum since they have no throttle plates).

The only reason the pre-2010 MY cars had the carbon layer integrated into the air filter was to stop the crankcase vapor from escaping to atmosphere. I am not sure why the US EPA allowed BMW to stop using it but it is a benefit for us 2010 and later M3 owners who get the larger/better flowing Euro air filter on our new cars. Maybe it slipped through the cracks

[devo]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

In a nutshell:

Dry sump: oil is collected at the bottom of the motor and immediately evacuated via pump to an external tank. This allows you to run as much oil as you want (2 gallons, 3 gallons, etc) as the oil is being held external to the motor. This design is traditionally more efficient and draws less power from the motor -- meaning you will end up with more power to the wheels. The down side: it's expensive.

A wet sump is exactly the opposite. The oil collect in your oil pan beneath the motor and is not evaculated to an external tank.

Some cars have a hybrid approach. They call it a dry sump, but they still store the motor in a tank beneath the block. I think Porsche uses this design.



I've seen this happen on my own car, parked in my own driveway. It's just a fluke.

The latter Porsches use the "integrated dry sump" design in their 9A1 engines (2009 and > engines, .2 turbo).

The true dry sump as in my gt3 and the Mezger engine GT Porsches to date should not be over filled as you state above. There has been well documented damage to this as a direct result of over filling.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by PencilGeek

In a nutshell:

Dry sump: oil is collected at the bottom of the motor and immediately evacuated via pump to an external tank. This allows you to run as much oil as you want (2 gallons, 3 gallons, etc) as the oil is being held external to the motor. This design is traditionally more efficient and draws less power from the motor -- meaning you will end up with more power to the wheels. The down side: it's expensive.

A wet sump is exactly the opposite. The oil collect in your oil pan beneath the motor and is not evaculated to an external tank.

Some cars have a hybrid approach. They call it a dry sump, but they still store the motor in a tank beneath the block. I think Porsche uses this design.



I've seen this happen on my own car, parked in my own driveway. It's just a fluke.

Wouldn't the power necessary to evacuate the oil eat more power or is friction reduced by that much in a dry-sump? I though dry-sump's big advantage was tolerance for extended exposure to high-g lateral forces, no? Didn't realize it translated to less drain on the engine.....the S85 is a dry-sump, was surprised they didn't carry that over to the more "track typical" ///M3.

Cheers,
e46e92

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Correction: Although my description of and the difference between a crankcase breather system and a PCV system that as explained below were correct, my information stating that the S65 does not have a PCV system was not. The S65 does indeed use a PCV system in tandem with the oil separators/breathers, I just never noticed the PCV line/check valve when the plenum was off of the car. I apologize for the misinformation.


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...17&hg=11&fg=15

A PCV System is not an open breather type system like we have.

A PCV system has a one way check valve in it and uses engine vacuum to provide "POSITIVE" crankcase ventilation. This type of system pulls the crankcase vapours into the intake manifold using manifold vacuum. The reason for the check valve is under full throttle engine vacuum is lost so this check valve closes to maintain vacuum in the crankcase until the throttle position is decreased and the engine starts making vacuum again. The Vacuum is what makes it positive.

The only place you have vacuum in a gasoline engine is downstream of the throttle plate(s). Our breathers are vented into the plenum where there is no significant vacuum present (except the extremely minor vacuum of ~1 in Hg or less that is created by the air filter restriction at maximum power) so the system is not a PCV system, but rather a crankcase breather system like a diesel engine uses (diesel engines make no vacuum since they have no throttle plates).

The only reason the pre-2010 MY cars had the carbon layer integrated into the air filter was to stop the crankcase vapor from escaping to atmosphere. I am not sure why the US EPA allowed BMW to stop using it but it is a benefit for us 2010 and later M3 owners who get the larger/better flowing Euro air filter on our new cars. Maybe it slipped through the cracks

Isn't evacuating those vapors into the intake a bad thing? The vapors will be sucked back into the engine, and won't that lead to residue build up in the cylinders?

Cheers,
e46e92

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by e46e92love

Isn't evacuating those vapors into the intake a bad thing? The vapors will be sucked back into the engine, and won't that lead to residue build up in the cylinders?

Cheers,
e46e92

Pretty pretty well every gasoline engine (except for a few exceptions) on the road runs a PCV system where the crankcase vapours are sucked into the intake and burned. The reason for the two oil separators on the S65 is to keep excessive oil from entering the intake when vacuum is lost under full throttle.

The reason PCV systems haven't caused issues up until now is that fuel and air is flowing through the inlet ports and the detergents and solvents in gasolines wash the oil residue from ports and inlet valves. Any crankcase vapour that is in the cylinder gets burned in the combustion process and doesn't pose any issues since the volume of vapour is so small compared to the volume of fuel and air.

Now with direct injection, many manufacturers seem to be having issues with carbon/oil residue build-up on intake valves and intake ports. Since the injectors inject fuel directly in the cylinders on Direct I injection instead of in the ports on Port Injection there is no longer fuel flowing through the ports and over the valves to wash them clean. It seems Audi and VW is having the biggest (or at least most publicized) issue of all manufacturers with build-up on their FSI engines.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by 008

The best feature is the fact that during sustained lateral and horizontal forces the engine will continue to receive its oil supply!

Depends who you ask, but it's between those 2 which one is the 'best' . But both center lower of gravity and uninterrupted oil supply are the main reasons for dry sump.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

Depends who you ask, but it's between those 2 which one is the 'best' . But both center lower of gravity and uninterrupted oil supply are the main reasons for dry sump.

Exactly, many engines are fitted with dry sumps for the lower centre of gravity and/or the ability to run lower hood lines due to being able to mount the engine lower in the car. Some times uninterrupted oil supply is just a bonus. A good wet sump can be baffled to provide uninterrupted oil flow as well.

The S85 V10 runs a dry sump system with 3 oil pumps but the S65 V8 (which was a further development of the S85 albeit with 2 less cylinders) runs a wet sump system which is lighter and is obviously able to handle acceptable g-forces considering the M3's tracking/high performance driving intentions.