Sold the M3. New owner is claiming damage.

[comebackid]

Fellas,

Due to financial reasons, I had to sell my 2011 M3. Took delivery in June. Sold it last month.

The new owner just called me to tell me the check engine light went one. When the new owner took it to the dealer, the dealer noticed that the rear bumper was hit and re painted. Something was also cracked inside the bumper as well and there was some overspray. Basically a shotty job of repair. What infuriates me is I had no idea. This damage did not occur when I had the car.

FYI. I took it to the dealer twice. Once for 1,200 service and another time for CEL. "Increased emissions". Apparently the "Inreased Emissions" is back which forced the dealer to look underneath. That's when they noticed the bumper. Does this make sense?

I am waiting on his e-mail to give me more specifics.

I told him I would call my dealership and BMW USA first thing in the morning. But what will this do for me? Clearly this happened during transport or during a service visit. Will either the dealership or BMW USA admit and come forward?

This puts me in a tight spot. I signed a contract attesting that there was no bodywork. Although I did put on the title and bill of sale, "As Is". Whatever the case, can someone offer advice?

Thanks.

[FStop7]

I'm guessing the law varies from state to state but I would think -logically- speaking that it's a matter of caveat emptor and that you're fine.

That said, if the repair didn't happen when the vehicle was in your possession and you were the first owner then either the car was damaged in transit to the dealership and they did a bad repair job, or it was damaged it transit to the USA and the VPC did a bad repair job. In either case there should be something documenting the repair in the car's history, unless the dealership was trying to pull off something shady.

[Erhan]

I'd be surprised if dealer accepts that they screwed your car, repaired it poorly, and not informed you. That'll put them in a very tough position, and they won't do that. Well, unless they're honest people. But then you weren't be in this position to begin with.

If it happened during the transport, then again the dealer must have fixed it.

If it happened during the transport from the Germany, than it'd be properly fixed to factory specs at the VPC (afaik, VPC guys are really good).

[Mr. ///M3 RD]

Did you not make a "Bill of Sale" and in it had a sentence like "Sold as is with remaining Dealer warranty"

I don't know to what type of person you sold your car to, I think he properly did all this himself now tries to see how far he can get with you ... I think it is time for you to take a Lawyer or at least tell him that he will be hearing from your Lawyer when you get his e-mail.

[comebackid]

Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter

Did you not make a "Bill of Sale" and in it had a sentence like "Sold as is with remaining Dealer warranty"

I don't know to what type of person you sold your car to, I think he properly did all this himself now tries to see how far he can get with you ... I think it is time for you to take a Lawyer or at least tell him that he will be hearing from your Lawyer when you get his e-mail.

Oh yeah. I forgot about that. He wrote up a contract. On that, it did not indicate "as is".

HOWEVER, I wrote up a bill of sale that had "as is" condition written on it as well as the title.

So 3 documents. Contract, bill of sale and title. Bill of sale and title state "as is".

By the way. I don't think he was threatening me or anything. But he wants to get to the bottom of it. And so do I. He feels he was probably deceived, but so do I.

[Gkap]

If on any of the documents it says that you sold the car "as is" and
both parties signed it then you have no legal obligation to help him.

[comebackid]

Originally Posted by Gkap

If on any of the documents it says that you sold the car "as is" and
both parties signed it then you have no legal obligation to help him.

I'm sure, but I'll make the call anyway.

It sounds like he is OK with it, but the bodywork was terrible. I'm shocked I didn't notice myself. But then again, it was all on the inside of the bumper. It sounds like he wants it redone, but he shouldn't have to pay. At least I THINK that is what he is implying.

[Doctor J]

BUYER beware....

[Gkap]

Originally Posted by comebackid

I'm sure, but I'll make the call anyway.

It sounds like he is OK with it, but the bodywork was terrible. I'm shocked I didn't notice myself. But then again, it was all on the inside of the bumper. It sounds like he wants it redone, but he shouldn't have to pay. At least I THINK that is what he is implying.

your car was a 2011 M3 and you are saying that in the time you
had it you didnt get into any "accidents" etc. To me it sounds
like the new owner is trying to pull a fast one on you.

[chris s]

It's not uncommon for brand new cars to be damaged in transport and be repaired prior to sale...with the buyer NEVER have a clue or being informed before purchase. It's sad to say, but very very true. My buddy owns a shop and has contracts with VW, BMW and others. He gets new cars all the time.

Buyer has no recourse IMHO...at this point, he should be happy it's just the bumper and not something more "significant". Bumpers were made to be repainted! Don't expect the dealer to fess up at this point!

[Kobaiyashi]

Originally Posted by Gkap

If on any of the documents it says that you sold the car "as is" and
both parties signed it then you have no legal obligation to help him.

I'm not a contracts lawyer, but my expereince in law school leads me to believe the above is incorrect. The law does vary from state to state and so you''ll want to do some research into this yourself, but I'd guess the question of liability would depend upon who bears the burden of proving when and how the damage occured. I seem to remember from property that when a house is sold, the seller is responsbile only for disclosing those defects/damages that he/she was or should have been aware of. Insurance is purchased by the buyer to cover everything else. Applied here, it doesn't seem like you'd be held responsible for something you were not aware of nor would be excpected to be aware of... that assumes, of course, similar legal rules apply. Worst comes to worst, you might be able to sue BMW for indemnity, but you'd have to closely examine all the relevant documents.

Anyway, before you delve into the whole legal world, I'd just speak with a manager at the dealership and BMWUSA. My experience is that threatening a lawsuit rarely works much better than being reasonable but firm, stating that you are looking for answers, and won't stop until you get some. You and the buyer need facts, so focus on getting them.

Keep us informed; I'd be interested in seeing how this unfolds.

P.S. This is not legal advice! [Now you know I'm a lawyer. ]

[IFX]

Originally Posted by chris s

It's not uncommon for brand new cars to be damaged in transport and be repaired prior to sale...with the buyer NEVER have a clue or being informed before purchase. It's sad to say, but very very true. My buddy owns a shop and has contracts with VW, BMW and others. He gets new cars all the time.

Buyer has no recourse IMHO...at this point, he should be happy it's just the bumper and not something more "significant". Bumpers were made to be repainted! Don't expect the dealer to fess up at this point!

someone with brains, thank you! some people just have no idea what really goes on..

[comebackid]

I think he just wants it fixed but shouldn't be obligated to pay. And I don't blame him considering it happened during transport or service visit.

Just got the e-mail. Service guy told him CEL was because of a cracked vapor collector which was under the rear bumper. The estimated repair to the vapor canister is approximately $500. Still no estimate on repainting the rear bumper cover. If BMW or dealership admits it, will they repair it?

Here are pics.

[NYCMCBM3]

dam that sucks

[chris s]

Originally Posted by comebackid

Just got the e-mail. Service guy told him CEL was because of a cracked vapor collector which was under the rear bumper. The estimated repair to the vapor canister is approximately $500. Still no estimate on repainting the rear bumper cover. If BMW or dealership admits it, will they repair it?

I really doubt BMW will admit fault...if you manage to swing that one...kudos to you. If they do admit fault, then of course they would repair it. But this is sort of your word against theirs unfortunately. They may loose a future customer in you, but that might be worth the risk to them.

Buying a used car always carries some risk...your buyer has to understand that. That's the bottom line. I'm not familiar with state laws on these things, especially in NJ, but I really don't believe he has any legal recourse here, IF he decided to pursue that route.

Did he have a pre-purchase inspection done? Any halfway decent body shop would have spotted paint work immediately. If he didn't have one done...shame on him. I would never purchase used without a PPI....even if the car had 1000 miles on it...and i even have an eye for paint work. just my .02... good luck with this!

[comebackid]

Unless the guy did it, it must have been the fault of the dealership. I highly doubt the VPC would let it go like that.

Although there was a transport company that picked it up. So transported from NJ to Alabama. I even went as far as typing up a contract that stated the vehicle was free of any indentations and was in excellent condition. The transport driver inspected it, and signed my contract. It was at night, but he went around the body with a flashlight.

But I wonder if the transporter could have damaged it. Unless they made a pit stop somewhere and did a half ass job?

[Gkap]

Originally Posted by chris s

It's not uncommon for brand new cars to be damaged in transport and be repaired prior to sale...with the buyer NEVER have a clue or being informed before purchase. It's sad to say, but very very true. My buddy owns a shop and has contracts with VW, BMW and others. He gets new cars all the time.

Buyer has no recourse IMHO...at this point, he should be happy it's just the bumper and not something more "significant". Bumpers were made to be repainted! Don't expect the dealer to fess up at this point!

I will be having my 2011 looked over as soon as I get it now lol

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by chris s

It's not uncommon for brand new cars to be damaged in transport and be repaired prior to sale...with the buyer NEVER have a clue or being informed before purchase. It's sad to say, but very very true. My buddy owns a shop and has contracts with VW, BMW and others. He gets new cars all the time.

Buyer has no recourse IMHO...at this point, he should be happy it's just the bumper and not something more "significant". Bumpers were made to be repainted! Don't expect the dealer to fess up at this point!

Yes.

(IIRC)

And not only that, if it's damaged in shipping and the receiving center takes care of it, the car is not damaged. Whatever condition it is sold in, IS the very definition of that car's new condition.

There was a big deal about this a while back when a transport ship tipped over and damaged a crap load of new BMW's.
A bunch were fixed (body work) and sold as new with clean history.

-scheherazade

[shamoo]

It's been mentioned before. I also live in NJ. Any private sale is assumed "as is" regardless if it's mentioned on the contract/bill of sale or not. You are under no obligation to do anything. At this point, anything you do is simply you being a nice guy.

[JCtx]

Looks like an accident while backing up to me; probably a high curb. I don't know where you can find the laws regarding what dealers must disclose to new car buyers (I'm sure different for each state), but for what I've read/seen in decades, they never do.

That's why it's so important to have the car checked. Not only for the buyer's sake, but for the seller's too. Let's all learn from the OP, and never sign anything other than 'AS IS with remaining manufacturer's warranty'. Good luck man.

By the way, I just discovered my car has minor lift damage. Will never know if somebody knew about it or not, but without inspecting the car ourselves with a fine comb even underneath, not even a bodyshop is going to find that unless large enough to be obvious. In case of the OP's car, it'd have been obvious to any competent shop that something was broken there... as well as the paint work. Lesson learned.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by comebackid

Unless the guy did it, it must have been the fault of the dealership. I highly doubt the VPC would let it go like that.

Although there was a transport company that picked it up. So transported from NJ to Alabama. I even went as far as typing up a contract that stated the vehicle was free of any indentations and was in excellent condition. The transport driver inspected it, and signed my contract. It was at night, but he went around the body with a flashlight.

But I wonder if the transporter could have damaged it. Unless they made a pit stop somewhere and did a half ass job?

You, the new owner, VPC or the transport company... the usual suspects.

[Elaz]

how much milage when you sold it.also how much did you get for it.if you don't mind me asking.