Just drove the 997.2 S... impressive.

[adc]

I had the pleasure of test driving a 2009 911S - made sure I followed my own special secret test route and gave it the beans. There were some sections where I was going much faster than in the M3, but the TC light never intruded.

The feel & feedback is amazing, just the way I was expecting. The car is significantly faster than the M3 - and I do mean significantly faster. Anyone who says different is either delusional or encountered a very bad 911 driver.

Rear traction is outstanding, but the car moves around a lot - despite being smaller & tighter than the M3 it tends to occupy the same amount of road, if you know what I mean.

Excellent throttle response - M3 is still a little better IMO but we're nitpicking. Brakes require a lot more effort and so does the clutch. Steering is better but in all honesty cannot touch the Elise - I was expecting a little more from the steering. It is true that as soon as I jumped into the M3 after the S, the M felt a little bit more aloof, but it had similar steering precision and the suspension seemed to be doing the same work with less effort (impressions, ok, not lap times).

I need to go test drive a C4S - coming from the M3 the C2S requires a lot more work and effort and I'm dead certain there's a big learning curve when you want to drive it really fast. I also got the feeling it would be a handful in the wet/snow, where the C4S would be more idiot-proof.

I think it would make an amazing weekend and track car, but I'm undecided if I could live with it on a daily basis. More test drives this weekend, we'll see...

Almost forgot - the car was on Bridgestones which I've never liked - I'll try to test drive one riding on PS2, which I adore & trust.

[Brosef]

the C2S is awesome in the snow. with the weight of the motor over the rear drive wheels, it gets much better traction than my 335 did, and it's fun to spin around when the mood strikes. (with snow tires, of course)

[adc]

Originally Posted by Brosef

the C2S is awesome in the snow. with the weight of the motor over the rear drive wheels, it gets much better traction than my 335 did, and it's fun to spin around when the mood strikes. (with snow tires, of course)

I'm curious, why did you go from 911S to M3?

[elh0102]

I had an '06 997S. They are great cars, but different, as you noticed in your test drive. They feel nervous due to the light front, but that's also one reason the steering feel is so good. It's really not that difficult to become comfortable with it on track. They have a lot of on-throttle understeer in a turn, since those big rear tires and all the rear weight pretty much overrule your steering input. But, it just takes a slight lift to get enough weight transfer for some rotation, then back on the throttle. And that rear weight gives the rear brakes a lot of power; nothing brakes like a 911. If you're a student of driving, it's really a fun car to learn.

[1N54E92]

Originally Posted by adc

I had the pleasure of test driving a 2009 911S - made sure I followed my own special secret test route and gave it the beans. There were some sections where I was going much faster than in the M3, but the TC light never intruded.

The feel & feedback is amazing, just the way I was expecting. The car is significantly faster than the M3 - and I do mean significantly faster. Anyone who says different is either delusional or encountered a very bad 911 driver.

Rear traction is outstanding, but the car moves around a lot - despite being smaller & tighter than the M3 it tends to occupy the same amount of road, if you know what I mean.

Excellent throttle response - M3 is still a little better IMO but we're nitpicking. Brakes require a lot more effort and so does the clutch. Steering is better but in all honesty cannot touch the Elise - I was expecting a little more from the steering. It is true that as soon as I jumped into the M3 after the S, the M felt a little bit more aloof, but it had similar steering precision and the suspension seemed to be doing the same work with less effort (impressions, ok, not lap times).

I need to go test drive a C4S - coming from the M3 the C2S requires a lot more work and effort and I'm dead certain there's a big learning curve when you want to drive it really fast. I also got the feeling it would be a handful in the wet/snow, where the C4S would be more idiot-proof.

I think it would make an amazing weekend and track car, but I'm undecided if I could live with it on a daily basis. More test drives this weekend, we'll see...

Almost forgot - the car was on Bridgestones which I've never liked - I'll try to test drive one riding on PS2, which I adore & trust.

Nice ! where did you go to test drive this 911S ? which dealership ?

[adc]

Originally Posted by 1ntense135i

Nice ! where did you go to test drive this 911S ? which dealership ?

Rockville Porsche - talked to a nice young sales person, an enthusiast. PM me know if you need contact info...

[pride355]

Originally Posted by adc

I'm curious, why did you go from 911S to M3?

I'm coming from 07 997.1 Carrera S coupe, too. And as you noticed with your short test drive, M3 and 911 have very different handling style and I prefer M3s characteristics. I had an 96 M3 Coupe EVO, then 03 M3 Coupe SMG and 05 M3 Coupe SMG. And for a change, I wanted to try Porsche route.

My MY07 Carrera S was manual with -20 mm sports chassie. These 2 options were the main reasons I dislike the car.
Everything aside (handling, size, character of the car etc.), the clutch was heavy for daily use, and I also had factory short-shift. I love SMG-F1-DKG style trannies but in 2006, there was no PDK for Porsche. All you got was 5 speed auto-box which is barrowed from Mercedes. So I went for manual.

I like the oversteer tendancy with the cars I have. I like throttle oversteer, so LSD was a must for me. In 2006, you cannot get LSD with PASM. So I went for the sports chassie which was too stiff. The suspansion was so stiff that even on highway, after 200 km/h I was shaking in the car (And I hit 200 km/h everyday)

If you ask me, the biggest problem with the 911s is that the engine is in the WRONG place. The front of the car is light, even in 997. It doesn't have sharp turn-in response. BUT as you mention, you can slightly lift off the throttle, the car starts to oversteer and than you catch it with throttle input and you start to oversteer the car. It is possible to do this even at 40 km/h. There is a huge traction at the back, so you can throttle oversteer the car but cannot oversteer the car prograsively. The rear steps out but you have to catch it fast. I like the mid-engine or front engine- rear wheel drive handling characteristics. Rear engine - rear wheel drive is my least favorite.

The best thing about Porsche was its brakes. They were very powerful and most importantly fade free which make them superior to M3s.
I love the size/weight/propotions of the car and very like the interior feeling of 2+2. It was my daily car in which I did 22000 km in 15 months. The looks of the 911 is feminen, IMO and the M3 is more muscle and macho car.

If I had bought 997.2 Carrera S with PDK + SC and LSD w/PASM instead of my 997.1 Carrera S with manual tranny + sports chassie, my Porsche experience would be a lot different, in a better way.
I may like 997.2 Carrera S but I'm happy to be back in M3.

Maybe I will give another try with 991 in 2-3 years.

[MVF4Rrider]

Everyone thinks they're Hans Stuck. Buy/drive what makes you happy. Trust the internal smile factor. It's not about which is faster or anything subjective. It's about which makes you smile the biggest while driving and even when it's sitting in the garage all by its lonesome! Could be whatever.

[devo]

[TheKosherStogie]

Go test drive a gt3....then come back and give another review!

both the m3 and 997 are top notch cars

[nleeumd]

hmm, was this the Atlas Gray 911? with black leather interior, lighted door sills?

[pride355]

Originally Posted by shift@red

BTW- you didnt say, did you test the 6mt or pdk? If you only drove the 6mt, i can tell you the PDK is even faster! I still love their 6mt, they are simply the best out there...everything from the steering to the clutch (althouh heavy has unmatched precision/feedback) and gearback work in perfect harmony.

Since he had mentioned "clutch" in his first post, the test car should be 6 MT, I guess.

[Kyoshi71]

Another dumb thread that compares a $90,500 base price car against a $55,400 base price car that's a 4 door, back seat, daily driver. Not to mention that you'll never touch a new "S" for that price because Porsche's actual corporate name is: Porsche Nickel & Dime GmbH.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Another dumb thread that compares a $90,500 base price car against a $55,400 base price car that's a 4 door, back seat, daily driver. Not to mention that you'll never touch a new "S" for that price because Porsche's actual corporate name is: Porsche Nickel & Dime GmbH.

Lol So true.

I actually believe the GT3 is a good value. If you consider the 997.2 Carrera S is probably going to run you 100k.

[adc]

Originally Posted by DD GT3 RD

Go test drive a gt3....then come back and give another review!

Perhaps I wasn't too clear in my initial post - I'm looking for a daily driver that is trackable. Since I have doubts regarding the S's ability as a daily driver (for me), I don't think the GT3 will do better. And it will be significantly more expensive.

I will test drive one at some points just for giggles, but right now I just wanted to know what I'm missing with the M3 and whether or not I should swap it for a Porsche.

Originally Posted by nleeumd

hmm, was this the Atlas Gray 911? with black leather interior, lighted door sills?

No, it was a very dark blue with black interior and all-perforated seats. 6sp Manual, the only way I'd buy a car for me at this time.

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Another dumb thread that compares a $90,500 base price car against a $55,400 base price car that's a 4 door, back seat, daily driver. Not to mention that you'll never touch a new "S" for that price because Porsche's actual corporate name is: Porsche Nickel & Dime GmbH.

Well, since both my M3 and the cars I'm looking at are used, MSRP for new cars are completely irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant really is what I am willing to pay now.

That said, my initial post was just intended to give an honest review and to list the similarities and differences between the 2 cars. I imagine there are other enthusiasts out there asking the same questions I have, wondering what car can better fulfill their driving fantasies and provide maximum pleasure.

I think you are missing quite a few interesting non-spoken things - the fact that a 4 door sedan comes into a comparison with a 2 door quintessential sports car says a lot about the sedan.


But if you think my post was dumb, why take the time to read it all and comment on it?

[Dave07997S]

I think ADCs review pretty much nailed it. I find the M3 more stable in the turns as the 997 bounces around quite a bit, but you look at the speedo and you realize you are going faster than you thought you were.

I miss the rear end traction of my 997S, I find the M3 hunting for rear end traction alot and I even have 285's out back now. With my 997S you go in a little slower but you come out a lot faster as you are on the throttle quite a bit more early and with more earnest than I can match with the M3.

The issue why I sold the 997 was practicality as a DD..I can't afford having 3 cars in the household so I got rid of my DD 08 328i on lease turnin and had to drive the 997 as a DD, it just wasn't that good of a DD. I find the M3 really is the quintessential sport DD, almost 911 performance with much better practicality and at a huge price savings.

I also found the M3 more comfortable than the 997, my 997S did have the sport seats which were light but lacking in padding and a few hours in the car made you a tad sore. Also the suspension in the 997 even with PASM in the normal mode is stiffer than the M3 with the EDC set in full sport. Put the 997s PASM in sport mode and it feels like there is "Louisville Sluggers" in there for shocks.

The 997S gets its main acceleration advantage from its traction out back, with those 295's (305s on my 997S) sitting on 11" wide rims with the motor providing the down force over the wheels, the car just rips out of the hole. However, once rolling I find the M3 to more than match the velocity of the 911 as the weight advantage of the 911 digresses once rolling.

I switched from a 07 997S to the M3 for the above reasons...I do miss the 911 but I do feel more at home in the M3.

Dave

[Dave07997S]

If you ask me, the biggest problem with the 911s is that the engine is in the WRONG place. The front of the car is light, even in 997. It doesn't have sharp turn-in response.

This is true, I find that trailbraking the 911 can help in turn in as the weight of the car is shifted somewhat forward, helping turn in bite. The 911 really requires you to relearn on how to go fast, its just such a different experience with the motor out back.

Dave

[graider]

totally agree. the standard look of boxter, 991, cayman are a bit feminine.

unless you move up to atleast turbo, gt3, then they start to look more aggresive.

Originally Posted by pride355

I'm coming from 07 997.1 Carrera S coupe, too. And as you noticed with your short test drive, M3 and 911 have very different handling style and I prefer M3s characteristics. I had an 96 M3 Coupe EVO, then 03 M3 Coupe SMG and 05 M3 Coupe SMG. And for a change, I wanted to try Porsche route.

My MY07 Carrera S was manual with -20 mm sports chassie. These 2 options were the main reasons I dislike the car.
Everything aside (handling, size, character of the car etc.), the clutch was heavy for daily use, and I also had factory short-shift. I love SMG-F1-DKG style trannies but in 2006, there was no PDK for Porsche. All you got was 5 speed auto-box which is barrowed from Mercedes. So I went for manual.

I like the oversteer tendancy with the cars I have. I like throttle oversteer, so LSD was a must for me. In 2006, you cannot get LSD with PASM. So I went for the sports chassie which was too stiff. The suspansion was so stiff that even on highway, after 200 km/h I was shaking in the car (And I hit 200 km/h everyday)

If you ask me, the biggest problem with the 911s is that the engine is in the WRONG place. The front of the car is light, even in 997. It doesn't have sharp turn-in response. BUT as you mention, you can slightly lift off the throttle, the car starts to oversteer and than you catch it with throttle input and you start to oversteer the car. It is possible to do this even at 40 km/h. There is a huge traction at the back, so you can throttle oversteer the car but cannot oversteer the car prograsively. The rear steps out but you have to catch it fast. I like the mid-engine or front engine- rear wheel drive handling characteristics. Rear engine - rear wheel drive is my least favorite.

The best thing about Porsche was its brakes. They were very powerful and most importantly fade free which make them superior to M3s.
I love the size/weight/propotions of the car and very like the interior feeling of 2+2. It was my daily car in which I did 22000 km in 15 months. The looks of the 911 is feminen, IMO and the M3 is more muscle and macho car.

If I had bought 997.2 Carrera S with PDK + SC and LSD w/PASM instead of my 997.1 Carrera S with manual tranny + sports chassie, my Porsche experience would be a lot different, in a better way.
I may like 997.2 Carrera S but I'm happy to be back in M3.

Maybe I will give another try with 991 in 2-3 years.

[alms211]

You think these look feminine?

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The M3 cant touch a 997.2S especially if it has PDK from a stop or from a roll (do i need to post the video again of the modded m3 getting trounced by the stock 997.2S from a roll?). The m3 is faster from a roll than a 997.1 and matches the 997.2 BASE but cannot come close to the 997.2S.



Looks more agressive than the M3 to me (which I find a bit on the feminine side compared to the e46 m3). Again, personal preference.

Remember I had a 997.1S, to me the M3 feels just as fast from a roll if not faster. My 997.1S also had the X51 headers, AWE 200cpi cats and a Borla. Never had the pleasure of running a 997.2S.

Dave

[adc]

Originally Posted by alms211

You think these look feminine?

I don't know what the big deal is - as far as I'm concerned, some of the most beautiful cars ever made have had long/swooping/sinuous curves normally associated with the feminine body.

I've always thought the 911 is a beautiful car - less so the 996. The 997 I like a lot...

[alms211]

Originally Posted by adc

I don't know what the big deal is - as far as I'm concerned, some of the most beautiful cars ever made have had long/swooping/sinuous curves normally associated with the feminine body.

I've always thought the 911 is a beautiful car - less so the 996. The 997 I like a lot...

I don't think the "feminine" comment has much to do with the curves, lines, etc. of the female body. My interpretation of "feminine" is associated with softness and the likliehood that a female would drive it.

IMO --- the 993 is one of the most beautiful cars ever produced. The 996, not so much. The 997 is a very good looking car.