How much better is M3 in snow than 335i?

[Thrumcap]

Looking to make the switch from 335i to M3 in the spring and curious if those who made the same move observed better handling in snow in the M3 due to the lsd?

[BigHat]

Well been awhile since I drove a 335i, but I'd have thought the question would have been the other way around. In other words, how much of a problem is the M3 going to be in the snow...

If you drive sanely, outfit the M3 with proper size and composition snow tires I'd say it should be about the same. The variable M differential and the all-season traction feature of the DSC should be helpful in theory, but I think those systems shine more in the wet. I wouldn't expect to see great changes at snow storm speeds.

That said, I parked mine after a few scares with summer tires (yea stupid) so never really exercised the system hard in the snow.

[mkoesel]

^^^

Disagree. LSD does help in the snow, although it is only when the snow is deep enough to begin to impede your movement that you notice. In light snow, they will perform equally - both are very capable (great, even) with snow tires, and both are little more than four wheeled coffins with summer tires.

[ACZakka325i]

I would say a well equipped m3 will almost always outperform an equally equipped 335i. Locked rear dif FTW.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by ACZakka325i

I would say a well equipped m3 will almost always outperform an equally equipped 335i. Locked rear dif FTW.

For spirited or performance driving, certainly. Driving down the road? The LSD won't do a thing unless you are actually in a situation where the open diff would have otherwise lost traction.

[Thrumcap]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

^^^

Disagree. LSD does help in the snow, although it is only when the snow is deep enough to begin to impede your movement that you notice. In light snow, they will perform equally - both are very capable (great, even) with snow tires, and both are little more than four wheeled coffins with summer tires.

What does the depth of the snow have to do with it? Wouldn't it also help on packed snow or ice if one wheel was spinning? My 335i with Blizzaks is pretty good but I wish it were better on slippery inclines. Hoping M3 with similar set-up would be an improvement.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

For spirited or performance driving, certainly. Driving down the road? The LSD won't do a thing unless you are actually in a situation where the open diff would have otherwise lost traction.

Correct, LSDs come into their own on hairpins and occasions when traction is limited.

But that being said I still think the difference in extreme weather conditions like snow wouldn't be that great. It's not like you are going to be driving at speed or be heavy handed with the throttle where the added traction of a Slip will be noticed.

[adc]

Definitely better than the 335i:
- the LSD can be felt in very low adhesion conditions (driving through snow, or one wheel on ice/snow one on pavement)
- the 335i has so much torque (and a little lag) down low, it's more difficult to make a clean start than with the M3

Edit: For reference, I was using both the 335i and M3 with all seasons in stock-ish sizes.

Heck, I can tell a massive difference even in the rain...

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

What does the depth of the snow have to do with it? Wouldn't it also help on packed snow or ice if one wheel was spinning? My 335i with Blizzaks is pretty good but I wish it were better on slippery inclines. Hoping M3 with similar set-up would be an improvement.

Sure, inclines or other low traction situations apply too. In my experience, the two behave about the same in mild winter conditions in my neck of the woods where hills are fairly sparse. This is assuming you are not intentionally trying to break the wheels loose. Obviously if you mash the throttle on a slick road, the M3 gets better traction. But even then both cars are going sideways real quick, and the DSC will kick on immediately which limits wheel spin and cuts throttle anyway.

But that being said I still think the difference in extreme weather conditions like snow wouldn't be that great. It's not like you are going to be driving at speed or be heavy handed with the throttle where the added traction of a Slip will be noticed.

Yep, that's my feelings too footie.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by adc

- the 335i has so much torque (and a little lag) down low, it's more difficult to make a clean start than with the M3

Another difference I have never experienced myself. Wife has never mentioned having any trouble getting going with the 335i nor the M3 in snow either.

Edit: For reference, I was using both the 335i and M3 with all seasons in stock-ish sizes.

Now, admittedly I've never driven any BMW with all season tires.

[brava09]

Never drove the 335i or the M3 in snow....these are fun cars for nice weather.
what's the fun driving them slow in slush or muddy roads?

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by brava09

Never drove the 335i or the M3 in snow....these are fun cars for nice weather.
what's the fun driving them slow in slush or muddy roads?

Well, you see, in many parts of the world winter has more to offer than slush or muddy roads. It's pretty much commonly accepted that RWD cars are fun to drive in the snow, at least over here in the USA.

[Thrumcap]

Originally Posted by brava09

Never drove the 335i or the M3 in snow....these are fun cars for nice weather.
what's the fun driving them slow in slush or muddy roads?

This car is my daily driver,so for me it is not an issue of fun in the winter but rather staying on the road and not getting stuck. If winter lasted as long as spring, summer and fall, I would be driving an AWD vehicle.

[BigGuyM3]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

Looking to make the switch from 335i to M3 in the spring and curious if those who made the same move observed better handling in snow in the M3 due to the lsd?

to op, i have an 335i (regular tires) and it absolutly sucks in the deep snow, as you may already know, so of what the guys said is true lots of torgue and the wheels just spin, the computer doesnt do anything more then just keep you in the same spot, i am getting at M3 but end of january so hopefully there be some snow here in NJ and i can help you even better from experience not just whats better on paper, but eaither way this time i am going with snow tires since a lot of owners say it improves the ride little bit.

on the other hand i will try not to drive my M in the snow, remember you also got to worry about other other drives and some of them dont know how to drive in the snow.

[Thrumcap]

Here's another question related to the LSD. If you were to turn off DTC, does LSD still function the same way and transfer power to the wheel that is not spinning?

[brava09]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

This car is my daily driver,so for me it is not an issue of fun in the winter but rather staying on the road and not getting stuck. If winter lasted as long as spring, summer and fall, I would be driving an AWD vehicle.

Well, since you have already drove your 335i in the snow, and probably you were fine with it, the M3 could not be any worse than the 335i.

So, go for the M3

[brava09]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

Here's another question related to the LSD. If you were to turn off DTC, does LSD still function the same way and transfer power to the wheel that is not spinning?

There is not DTC on the M3. Probably because the traction is handled by the LSD....

M3 has the stability control, called DSC, and the LSD still function the same way when it's switched off. But I wouldn't switched it off, especially on the snow .

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by brava09

There is not DTC on the M3.

True, although I think he basically meant turn off all traction control (but I might be wrong).

Both the M3 and 3 series have full DSC, its just that with the M3 the (optional) intermediate mode is called MDM and is performance focused, while with the 335i the (non-optional) intermediate mode is called DTC and is mainly for driving in low traction situations where full DSC is too intrusive.

Originally Posted by Thurmcap

Here's another question related to the LSD. If you were to turn off DTC, does LSD still function the same way and transfer power to the wheel that is not spinning?

The LSD's presence (or lack thereof) becomes even more apparent with the traction off since there is now nothing to intervene and stop wheel spin electronically. IOW, if you take a 335i and M3 to a slilppery road and turn off DSC (completely) on both cars, the 335i will spin one wheel into oblivion while the M3 will spin both wheels into oblivion.

If you are ultimately wondering if the M3 makes doing winter-time donuts and drifing and other shananigans more easy and more controllable - the answer is yes! However, as the brava09 said, don't turn off DSC in the snow unless you are in a safe controlled, no-traffic area to play (preferably not on a road, though I have played around in my neighborhood later at night in a snowstorm).

[Thrumcap]

Thanks for the replies. I was referring to turning all traction control off. I have turned off DTC in my 335i to help get up some slippery hills before which actually helped. I was wondering if it would be even better in M3 with traction off and the LSD.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

Thanks for the replies. I was referring to turning all traction control off. I have turned off DTC in my 335i to help get up some slippery hills before which actually helped.

Ok, I get ya.

I was wondering if it would be even better in M3 with traction off and the LSD.

Better than your 335i in DTC mode? Very unlikely. Better than your 335i with traction control off? Yeah.

But again, I would not switch off traction control to get up a hill. In the 335i, I might engage DTC mode like you mention. In the M3 I'd just leave DSC alone. If I had MDM I might try that instead, though I cannot say (becaus I have no experience) if it would make much different in this case.

[Thrumcap]

There are times when it helps to have your wheels spinning and prefereably both wheels. I have been in areas where it helped to spin enough to move the snow to get to the surface underneath and gain traction. In that case it would definitely help to have both wheels moving so it sounds like the M3 would have the advantage there.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Thrumcap

Thanks for the replies. I was referring to turning all traction control off. I have turned off DTC in my 335i to help get up some slippery hills before which actually helped. I was wondering if it would be even better in M3 with traction off and the LSD.

Yes, DSC can actually get in the way of you going up a hill in certain sitautions with the M3. For instance, if there is no ice but just fresh snow, I found it that some wheel spin can actually help with traction as it helps you get to the paved surface, or create an uneven surface the tires can grab a little, etc.

LSD should help, at least in theory, in any situation when one of the drive wheels has less grip. Meaning you won't lose power altogether just because one wheel has no traction and can't apply longitudinal force to accelerate the car. This is handy on surfaces across which traction varies significantly. A winter road is not too far from that description.

My understanding is that, without LSD, the electronics try to achieve the same effect by applying the brakes to the wheel that has lost traction. So, in theory, the drivetrain is still applying torque to that wheel, which is simply being counter-acted and balanced by the retarding torque generated by the brakes. Of course, that doesn't result in longitudinal force applied at that wheel, but the point is that the other wheel which has traction can get/keep you moving. I don't know the details of how these systems work, so this is my guess.