Diminished Value

jbhnc · 05-13-2009, 07:53 PM

First, thank you for all the assistance yesterday. This is my first real accident and I want to make sure my M3 is returned to its prior glory.

Does anyone have experience with diminished value? I live in NC which is a diminished value state.

If so, how did you come up and defend the estimated diminished value ?

Thanks - J

ajj · 05-13-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbhnc

First, thank you for all the assistance yesterday. This is my first real accident and I want to make sure my M3 is returned to its prior glory.

Does anyone have experience with diminished value? I live in NC which is a diminished value state.

If so, how did you come up and defend the estimated diminished value ?

Thanks - J

same thing happened to me, with 3k miles on the odometer. car was purchased at msrp in the $73-74k range when it first came out. the other guy had usaa insurance who had to paint and replace my rear driver quarter panel, which was about +/-$1500 in repairs. it will not be perfect wherever you go, but they did a decent job.

i then called the usaa office for a diminished value claim. do a search for texas auto services. they are here in san antonio(use to live in san antonio) and specifically work on these sorts of claims. you're out of state, but they may be able to help you for a $400 upfront fee. long story short, usaa ended up giving me an additional $3000 made out to me. not sure how they got this number, as texas auto services estimated ~$7k in diminished value based on one replaced quarter panel, and repainted door(apparently, body guys have to blend in the paint with the door and partially "painted" it, even though it wasn't damaged.) they base this on auction values for our cars, which aren't horribly flattering numbers. it took about 4 weeks from me filing the complaint to check in hand. it ain't much, but better than nothing. hope this helps and good luck!

Angry3 · 05-14-2009, 12:51 AM

J,

As you discovered, NC recognizes 3rd party DV claims. The biggest problems, naturally, are:

1. Compelling the insurer to pay them.
2. If (1) can't be accomplished, filing a viable Complaint in the proper court and gathering enough evidence to prove the claim at trial (while likely facing a seasoned attorney that defends these claims for a living).

Here are the nuts and bolts of DV claims here from what I've seen:

1. Leased car = no standing to sue = no claim for DV.

2. Owned car: You must prove that the car in its repaired condition is worth less than the car prior to the accident. The diminution in value can be related to the quality of the repairs, but more commonly comes from the fact of the accident itself. A "branded" vehicle history report may come into play, but the real problem IMO is that an M3 is a specialty car with a limited market, and pretty much everyone in that market will consider the accident and repair in their purchase decision. Under NC law, if the repair exceeds 25% of the car's value you will have to disclose the accident upon sale, at least until the point that the car becomes 5 model years old. Even if that law doesn't apply, anyone that has a PPI done (or has a paint meter) will readily be able to tell that the car has been wrecked.

The bottom line is that getting a DV payout is a reasonable expectation. Determing a reasonable settlement amount is another story. My advice? Look around for a local, reputable company that does DV assesments. These folks generally inspect the car and write a report that draws on the market for that particular car. The problem is that some want you to fork out $300-$400 up front, only to give you a sloppy report with unjustified findings and "Pie in the sky" numbers that you can't use. As the guy in the Indiana Jones scene with the Holy Grail cups says, "Choose wisely."

I expect Geico will offer something to settle the DV issue with you, and ultimately you'll have to decide whether it's worth it to spend the money to go after them for more. Complicating things further is that disagreements about DV may not trigger the "bad faith refusal" statute that allows Plaintiffs to recover their attorney fees here. That means that if you want to go to war with a lawyer on your side, it's almost certainly going to be on your dime.

Hope that helps!

bily · 05-14-2009, 08:11 AM

Lease or own, it does not matter in a DV claim. It all depends on the insurer and the policy. Some policies explicitly exclude it. Geico does pay. I know as my wifes car was hit and had about $6K worth of damage and we got $1300. There was no negotiation, it done based on their charts based on the vehicle and the amount of damage.

Check your policy for exclusion
If none, then call your adjustor and file a claim

gobuffs · 05-14-2009, 08:37 AM

Just FYI...DV only works if you were not at fault.

jbhnc · 05-14-2009, 09:55 AM

Thank you all for the feedback.

I was not at fault.

Interestingly enough, the repair shop I will use (Precision Collision in Wake Forest) brought it up as well. I will wait until the repairs are underway to bring it up to GEICO (timing is everything!) and see what they offer. I have heard general guidelines of ~30-35% of the repair for inherent dv .

Any other feedback is welcome and I will post the value I was able to get to hopefully help others on the board in the future.

J

PorscheRacer · 05-14-2009, 10:09 AM

I thought DV was something completely different. Guess I need to stop hanging around those porn sites

I would think the BMW dealer where you bought your car would be able to come up with a reasonable estimate of what they would take off a trade if they can tell a repair has been made. They will probably help you for free if you bought the car there.

If the accident goes on CARFAX, which it likely will with an insurance claim, take pictures of the damage and keep them for when you sell the car to show it was minor.

I'm sorry to say it, but I think a car like this with accident history on the CARFAX might as well have a salvage title. It is going to be very difficult to re-sell and you are going to take a significant value hit IMHO. If you can get a buyer past the CARFAX, the pictures would be helpful to show the minor extent of the damage.

Are you SURE your neck isn't sore

jbhnc · 07-31-2009, 07:04 PM

Been a while since I updated the post...here is the brief version

1) Took the car to Precision Collision
2) They took a long time to start the repairs...until I came back late from a business trip and wrote a nasty email at 1am...it was on the frame machine that day
3) Frame was bent but not as bad as they originally thought. Fortunately did not need a new frame rail (hence the engine did not need to be removed). Unfortunately it was bent and needed to be pulled.
4) Got the car back right before vacation...body/paint work was great. Unfortunately an EDC fault appeared on the way home so it sat in my garage for a week while we were gone.
5) Took it to Leith BMW upon my return. It took them 4 days to figure out what was wrong (turned out a hairline crack in the sensor connector) . At least I had an '09 328 loaner
6) Got the last piece (a forgotten headlight seal I just happened to notice...looked weird w/o it)
7) Finally my car is whole again as of this week! It feels great to have it back...it had been so long, it felt like I just bought it all over again!

Just met with the appraiser today. I will have my appraisal report within 10 business days. Then I will submit for GEICO for DV...I hope they make DV easier then the whole repair shop thing...we will see!

Cheers - J

Angry3 · 08-03-2009, 12:38 PM

Thanks for the update. When you say you're meeting with the DV appraiser, are you talking about Geico's appraiser or yours? I would expect their appraiser's DV value to come in pretty low, but who knows. Let us know where the DV estimates come in at, anyone here in NC that has to go through this would certainly benefit from that info.

jbhnc · 08-04-2009, 09:24 AM

The appraiser is someone I hired from Auto Appraisal Group . He spent ~1 hr taking pictures, asking questions, and taking a test drive.

From what I have heard, it is likely that the insurance company will send out someone as well.

I will certainly keep the group updated as to where I end up and how I got there so it is useful for anyone else who has to go through a similar mess.

Cheers - J

Angry3 · 08-04-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbhnc

The appraiser is someone I hired from Auto Appraisal Group . He spent ~1 hr taking pictures, asking questions, and taking a test drive.

From what I have heard, it is likely that the insurance company will send out someone as well.

I will certainly keep the group updated as to where I end up and how I got there so it is useful for anyone else who has to go through a similar mess.

Cheers - J

Thanks for the reply. You will be meeting with an appraiser hired by Geico at some point, likely after they see the report done by your appraiser and the claimed DV value. Expect the DV amounts asserted in your appraiser's report and Geico's to differ significantly.

Hopefully they will be reasonable about what they will pay, if not your choices are to file suit on your own or through an attorney, and neither option will be certain to net you any more money in the end.

Good luck.

jbhnc · 12-25-2009, 06:52 PM

Hi All,

For those who have to deal with the DV nightmare, I thought I would share my experience.

So to recap, I have an 09 E90 M3. someone pulled out in front of me last spring. I t-boned them at ~25 mph. They were cited at the scene and had GEICO. GEICO was miserable to deal with. I actually had to subrogate the repairs through my insurance (Erie) since GEICO wouldn't pay for the repair shop I wanted to use, wanted to use refurb parts on a <1 yr old car, etc.

The end repair bill was 15.5K . Frame was slightly bent so the rails were pulled (not replaced). The repair shop (Precision Collision) did a beautiful job and the car drives like pre-accident.

I had the car appraised by an independent appraiser (AAG). It came back ~$11.5K DV. GEICO made a ridiculous offer ($2800), followed about another ridiculous offer (<$3500) without even seeing the car. GEICO finally ended up sending out an appraiser from Twiggs (which I was told by my appraiser would happen). Twiggs came back with $5500 which GEICO offered. They wouldn't budge from that number.

I found a 2009 sedan for sale in GA that was very similar option wise that was in an accident. They sold it for ~$10-12K less then blue book (depending on which number and condition you used).

I talked to an an attorney. He said he would have hired both AAG and Twiggs so GEICO couldn't. Ultimately, he thought I could get more, at least splitting the difference but it would still take months to get through the process.

I elected to settle for the $5500...sucks b/c you never know if it is the right amount? Guess, I won't know until I sell my car...

Anyways, hope this helps anyone else in a similar situation.

Drive safe and Merry Christmas!

J

John@BMW · 12-29-2009, 04:41 PM

i killed Bambi with my car about 9 months ago

sorry kids....

anyway, Damage was at 12,000 dollars and they gave me a diminished value of 1700 dollars....

here are pictures
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=bambi

gundamz · 12-29-2009, 04:54 PM

jbhnc,

I am sorry to hear that but any amount from an insurance company is considered a win. I just recently got my M and want to see if you know anyone BMW meets in the area.

Thanks,
Sam

jbhnc · 12-29-2009, 07:58 PM

Sam,

I don't know of any groups in the area...honestly, I am so buried between work and trying to find time for my family I haven't been good about the social side of my car (or mtb or even alma mater clubs!...I haven't been to a Clemson or UNC event in years)

There are some good autocross groups like Tarheel Sports Car Club around.

Cheers,

J

luv135i · 01-01-2010, 06:17 PM

I was browsing this forum and come upon this DV issue. I can tell you as a former claims adjuster for a major ins company we got our DV by using this ridiculous math formula that took into account location of damage, # of panels damaged, amt of damage, and value of vehicle. Im sure there were other variables as well but those I can remember off the top. Then if the claimant didnt want to take that we gave them the option of hiring their own appraiser and even then we never gauranteed we would go by the value they give. No one can truely know what your DV will be until you sell it.

earlyapex · 01-04-2010, 08:13 AM

This is so similar to what happened to me, it's almost eerie. In NC, 2008 wrecked by tow company. I didn't want to deal with all this DV stuff, etc, and told them I would only accept a full FMW settlement for the car (even if it wasn't totalled). $17.5k in damage. They argued a lot, but I got a check for $49.5k for a 2008 sedan with 18k miles, which is probably a bit north of fair.

It's not in my nature to be a jerk, but that's the only language insurance companies can speak. If you are nice and reasonable, they'll take advantage of you.

My advice? Be very aggressive and make real threats to hire a good attorney (don't bluff, if you say you are going to hire one, be prepared to do so). Once you hire an attorney, they lose and they know it. Find a good one and get ready to fight, they'll be reasonable (but only in that circumstance).

Also, I called the insured several times and said "you need to understand this is YOUR problem, not your insurance company's. If they don't treat me fairly, I'm going to sue YOU, not them." He became my best advocate.

05-13-2009, 07:53 PM	#1
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	Diminished Value - NC First, thank you for all the assistance yesterday. This is my first real accident and I want to make sure my M3 is returned to its prior glory. Does anyone have experience with diminished value? I live in NC which is a diminished value state. If so, how did you come up and defend the estimated diminished value ? Thanks - J
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05-14-2009, 12:51 AM	#3
Angry3 All your 1 are belong to us!!! 20 Rep 658 Posts Drives: '08 135i 'Vert Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC iTrader: (0)	J, As you discovered, NC recognizes 3rd party DV claims. The biggest problems, naturally, are: 1. Compelling the insurer to pay them. 2. If (1) can't be accomplished, filing a viable Complaint in the proper court and gathering enough evidence to prove the claim at trial (while likely facing a seasoned attorney that defends these claims for a living). Here are the nuts and bolts of DV claims here from what I've seen: 1. Leased car = no standing to sue = no claim for DV. 2. Owned car: You must prove that the car in its repaired condition is worth less than the car prior to the accident. The diminution in value can be related to the quality of the repairs, but more commonly comes from the fact of the accident itself. A "branded" vehicle history report may come into play, but the real problem IMO is that an M3 is a specialty car with a limited market, and pretty much everyone in that market will consider the accident and repair in their purchase decision. Under NC law, if the repair exceeds 25% of the car's value you will have to disclose the accident upon sale, at least until the point that the car becomes 5 model years old. Even if that law doesn't apply, anyone that has a PPI done (or has a paint meter) will readily be able to tell that the car has been wrecked. The bottom line is that getting a DV payout is a reasonable expectation. Determing a reasonable settlement amount is another story. My advice? Look around for a local, reputable company that does DV assesments. These folks generally inspect the car and write a report that draws on the market for that particular car. The problem is that some want you to fork out $300-$400 up front, only to give you a sloppy report with unjustified findings and "Pie in the sky" numbers that you can't use. As the guy in the Indiana Jones scene with the Holy Grail cups says, "Choose wisely." I expect Geico will offer something to settle the DV issue with you, and ultimately you'll have to decide whether it's worth it to spend the money to go after them for more. Complicating things further is that disagreements about DV may not trigger the "bad faith refusal" statute that allows Plaintiffs to recover their attorney fees here. That means that if you want to go to war with a lawyer on your side, it's almost certainly going to be on your dime. Hope that helps!
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05-14-2009, 08:11 AM	#4
bily Lieutenant 84 Rep 540 Posts Drives: 22 G05, 22 G26 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2022 i4 [0.00] 2022 BMW X5 [0.00] 2015 BMW 428 Cabriolet [0.00]	Depends on Insurer and Policy Lease or own, it does not matter in a DV claim. It all depends on the insurer and the policy. Some policies explicitly exclude it. Geico does pay. I know as my wifes car was hit and had about $6K worth of damage and we got $1300. There was no negotiation, it done based on their charts based on the vehicle and the amount of damage. Check your policy for exclusion If none, then call your adjustor and file a claim
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05-14-2009, 08:37 AM	#5
gobuffs Captain 74 Rep 709 Posts Drives: E30 M3 S54 (race car) Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Texas iTrader: (4)	Just FYI...DV only works if you were not at fault.
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05-14-2009, 09:55 AM	#6
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	Thank you all for the feedback. I was not at fault. Interestingly enough, the repair shop I will use (Precision Collision in Wake Forest) brought it up as well. I will wait until the repairs are underway to bring it up to GEICO (timing is everything!) and see what they offer. I have heard general guidelines of ~30-35% of the repair for inherent dv . Any other feedback is welcome and I will post the value I was able to get to hopefully help others on the board in the future. J
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05-14-2009, 10:09 AM	#7
PorscheRacer Private First Class 12 Rep 138 Posts Drives: 08 M3 Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bay Area CA iTrader: (0)	I thought DV was something completely different. Guess I need to stop hanging around those porn sites I would think the BMW dealer where you bought your car would be able to come up with a reasonable estimate of what they would take off a trade if they can tell a repair has been made. They will probably help you for free if you bought the car there. If the accident goes on CARFAX, which it likely will with an insurance claim, take pictures of the damage and keep them for when you sell the car to show it was minor. I'm sorry to say it, but I think a car like this with accident history on the CARFAX might as well have a salvage title. It is going to be very difficult to re-sell and you are going to take a significant value hit IMHO. If you can get a buyer past the CARFAX, the pictures would be helpful to show the minor extent of the damage. Are you SURE your neck isn't sore
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07-31-2009, 07:04 PM	#8
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	Progress Been a while since I updated the post...here is the brief version 1) Took the car to Precision Collision 2) They took a long time to start the repairs...until I came back late from a business trip and wrote a nasty email at 1am...it was on the frame machine that day 3) Frame was bent but not as bad as they originally thought. Fortunately did not need a new frame rail (hence the engine did not need to be removed). Unfortunately it was bent and needed to be pulled. 4) Got the car back right before vacation...body/paint work was great. Unfortunately an EDC fault appeared on the way home so it sat in my garage for a week while we were gone. 5) Took it to Leith BMW upon my return. It took them 4 days to figure out what was wrong (turned out a hairline crack in the sensor connector) . At least I had an '09 328 loaner 6) Got the last piece (a forgotten headlight seal I just happened to notice...looked weird w/o it) 7) Finally my car is whole again as of this week! It feels great to have it back...it had been so long, it felt like I just bought it all over again! Just met with the appraiser today. I will have my appraisal report within 10 business days. Then I will submit for GEICO for DV...I hope they make DV easier then the whole repair shop thing...we will see! Cheers - J
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08-03-2009, 12:38 PM	#9
Angry3 All your 1 are belong to us!!! 20 Rep 658 Posts Drives: '08 135i 'Vert Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC iTrader: (0)	Thanks for the update. When you say you're meeting with the DV appraiser, are you talking about Geico's appraiser or yours? I would expect their appraiser's DV value to come in pretty low, but who knows. Let us know where the DV estimates come in at, anyone here in NC that has to go through this would certainly benefit from that info.
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08-04-2009, 09:24 AM	#10
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	The appraiser is someone I hired from Auto Appraisal Group . He spent ~1 hr taking pictures, asking questions, and taking a test drive. From what I have heard, it is likely that the insurance company will send out someone as well. I will certainly keep the group updated as to where I end up and how I got there so it is useful for anyone else who has to go through a similar mess. Cheers - J
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12-25-2009, 06:52 PM	#12
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	Diminished Value in NC - Final Hi All, For those who have to deal with the DV nightmare, I thought I would share my experience. So to recap, I have an 09 E90 M3. someone pulled out in front of me last spring. I t-boned them at ~25 mph. They were cited at the scene and had GEICO. GEICO was miserable to deal with. I actually had to subrogate the repairs through my insurance (Erie) since GEICO wouldn't pay for the repair shop I wanted to use, wanted to use refurb parts on a <1 yr old car, etc. The end repair bill was 15.5K . Frame was slightly bent so the rails were pulled (not replaced). The repair shop (Precision Collision) did a beautiful job and the car drives like pre-accident. I had the car appraised by an independent appraiser (AAG). It came back ~$11.5K DV. GEICO made a ridiculous offer ($2800), followed about another ridiculous offer (<$3500) without even seeing the car. GEICO finally ended up sending out an appraiser from Twiggs (which I was told by my appraiser would happen). Twiggs came back with $5500 which GEICO offered. They wouldn't budge from that number. I found a 2009 sedan for sale in GA that was very similar option wise that was in an accident. They sold it for ~$10-12K less then blue book (depending on which number and condition you used). I talked to an an attorney. He said he would have hired both AAG and Twiggs so GEICO couldn't. Ultimately, he thought I could get more, at least splitting the difference but it would still take months to get through the process. I elected to settle for the $5500...sucks b/c you never know if it is the right amount? Guess, I won't know until I sell my car... Anyways, hope this helps anyone else in a similar situation. Drive safe and Merry Christmas! J
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12-29-2009, 04:41 PM	#13
John@BMW I can't belive this car is a 4 door family sedan. 66 Rep 385 Posts Drives: 2008 M3 sedan, '96 M3 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Atlanta iTrader: (1)	i killed Bambi with my car about 9 months ago sorry kids.... anyway, Damage was at 12,000 dollars and they gave me a diminished value of 1700 dollars.... here are pictures http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ighlight=bambi __________________
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12-29-2009, 04:54 PM	#14
gundamz Private 4 Rep 64 Posts Drives: N/A Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	jbhnc, I am sorry to hear that but any amount from an insurance company is considered a win. I just recently got my M and want to see if you know anyone BMW meets in the area. Thanks, Sam
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12-29-2009, 07:58 PM	#15
jbhnc New Member 5 Rep 21 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 - Black/Black Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	Sam, I don't know of any groups in the area...honestly, I am so buried between work and trying to find time for my family I haven't been good about the social side of my car (or mtb or even alma mater clubs!...I haven't been to a Clemson or UNC event in years) There are some good autocross groups like Tarheel Sports Car Club around. Cheers, J
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01-01-2010, 06:17 PM	#16
luv135i Major 60 Rep 1,073 Posts Drives: White Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: GA iTrader: (0)	I was browsing this forum and come upon this DV issue. I can tell you as a former claims adjuster for a major ins company we got our DV by using this ridiculous math formula that took into account location of damage, # of panels damaged, amt of damage, and value of vehicle. Im sure there were other variables as well but those I can remember off the top. Then if the claimant didnt want to take that we gave them the option of hiring their own appraiser and even then we never gauranteed we would go by the value they give. No one can truely know what your DV will be until you sell it.
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01-04-2010, 08:13 AM	#17
earlyapex Private 8 Rep 81 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 M3 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Raleigh, NC iTrader: (0)	This is so similar to what happened to me, it's almost eerie. In NC, 2008 wrecked by tow company. I didn't want to deal with all this DV stuff, etc, and told them I would only accept a full FMW settlement for the car (even if it wasn't totalled). $17.5k in damage. They argued a lot, but I got a check for $49.5k for a 2008 sedan with 18k miles, which is probably a bit north of fair. It's not in my nature to be a jerk, but that's the only language insurance companies can speak. If you are nice and reasonable, they'll take advantage of you. My advice? Be very aggressive and make real threats to hire a good attorney (don't bluff, if you say you are going to hire one, be prepared to do so). Once you hire an attorney, they lose and they know it. Find a good one and get ready to fight, they'll be reasonable (but only in that circumstance). Also, I called the insured several times and said "you need to understand this is YOUR problem, not your insurance company's. If they don't treat me fairly, I'm going to sue YOU, not them." He became my best advocate.
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