Clutch do/don't help

[2008e93M3lease]

Hi, I'm past the stalling stage, but I had some more questions about the clutch:


1. To get into first gear without stalling or jerking, I find that I have to rev to over 1000 and then half clutch until the car starts to move (feel that pull) and then I rev slightly more as I release the clutch fully. This process is really slow, but my real question is, is this clutch abuse? Am I burning the clutch when I half clutch at like 1500 RPM to make the launch nice and steady? Should I just do this faster (it's hard)?

2. When I'm braking I have a habit of depressing the clutch and then the brake. Is this bad to hold in the clutch like this? Does this hurt anything? Is this bad driving technique? Should I just press on the brake, and go into neutral? At a red light I usually hold the clutch and brake in and keep it in 1st gear. Is that bad?

3. Do you have to rev the engine as you release the clutch to get into 3,4,5 or do you just release the clutch gradually?

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by 2008e93M3lease

Hi, I'm past the stalling stage, but I had some more questions about the clutch:


1. To get into first gear without stalling or jerking, I find that I have to rev to over 1000 and then half clutch until the car starts to move (feel that pull) and then I rev slightly more as I release the clutch fully. This process is really slow, but my real question is, is this clutch abuse? Am I burning the clutch when I half clutch at like 1500 RPM to make the launch nice and steady? Should I just do this faster (it's hard)?

2. When I'm braking I have a habit of depressing the clutch and then the brake. Is this bad to hold in the clutch like this? Does this hurt anything? Is this bad driving technique? Should I just press on the brake, go into neutral At a red light I usually hold the clutch and brake in and keep it in 1st gear. Is that bad?

3. Do you have to rev the engine as you release the clutch to get into 3,4,5 or do you just release the clutch gradually?

1. Now that you're past the stalling stage (congrats) focus on using lower and lower rpm to get started. You can actually roll away on a flat surface with no extra throttle. When I back out of my garage space I use no throttle and just a little clutch slip to get going, then depress the clutch and coast back carefully (there's a car parked behind me usually).
2. Don't depress the cluch on braking unless you need to shift or you're about to come to a stop. If you're in 6th and the revs fall below 900 rpm in, then declutch. Your clutch action should be related to the tach. Start being aware of the rpm as you brake and come to a stop.

Keeping it in gear with the clutch in is not a bad thing, generally. If the stop is real long, then you might put it in neutral, but then you'll need to be away when your light is about to go green so you can slip it into gear so that you're not bumbling around after the light's already green.
3. As gears go up, then the revs fall. If they fall below the gear speed, then you're taking too long to shift. Don't rush the upshifts in normal day-to-day driving, but don't dilly-dally either. It should be a smooth action. When you re-engage the clutch the engine speed and gear speed should be perfectly synchonized. You WILL need throttle. If you're totally off the throttle, then it'll buck and be rough, but the rpm will be lower than they were in the prior gear.

Good luck with this. Practice makes perfect. Remember, slip the clutch as little as possible and be smooth. Not every shift will be perfect, but concentrate on it.

When I first got the car I was shifting at too low rpm, probably because I'd driven lot of big-torque cars in the past. I found it's smoother when I shift at 3.000 rpm and above.

When you get this down we can work on more advanced techniques.

Dave

[omegatlc]

dcstep is right on point with the advice. My wife drove my car...in an empty parking lot...for the first time today and I was giving the same instructions. Of course the comments on her skills from my 9 yr old son in the back didn't help, but she began to get it together. Practice and confidence is key. You'll be there in no time. Good luck!

[niqui]

sorry to thread jack, but a quesiton, when you shift down to slow down the car, for example, when exiting the highway; is it better for the car to drop the clutch slowly right?
i am asking because i find if you drop the clutch slowly, it takes too long to slow the car down...
when you guys are parked u always leave 1st engaged right>
someone told me on m's your not supposed to do this....i think that makes zero sense.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by niqui

sorry to thread jack, but a quesiton, when you shift down to slow down the car, for example, when exiting the highway; is it better for the car to drop the clutch slowly right?
i am asking because i find if you drop the clutch slowly, it takes too long to slow the car down...
when you guys are parked u always leave 1st engaged right>
someone told me on m's your not supposed to do this....i think that makes zero sense.

No, the rule of the clutch is either in or out, except when slipping it as little as possible getting going from a stop.

If you have a parking garage, try going in and out in first or second gear and controlling the speed with only you right foot. (Be ready to use the brake if needed). You should be able to smoothly slow for corners using engine compression and be smooth getting on and off the throttle. The movements are very small, so it'll help realize the control required and strengthen it through practice. I do this every time I enter or leave a parking garage, several times per day.

Dave

[VanM3Lover]

Originally Posted by 2008e93M3lease

Hi, I'm past the stalling stage, but I had some more questions about the clutch:


1. To get into first gear without stalling or jerking, I find that I have to rev to over 1000 and then half clutch until the car starts to move (feel that pull) and then I rev slightly more as I release the clutch fully. This process is really slow, but my real question is, is this clutch abuse? Am I burning the clutch when I half clutch at like 1500 RPM to make the launch nice and steady? Should I just do this faster (it's hard)?

2. When I'm braking I have a habit of depressing the clutch and then the brake. Is this bad to hold in the clutch like this? Does this hurt anything? Is this bad driving technique? Should I just press on the brake, and go into neutral? At a red light I usually hold the clutch and brake in and keep it in 1st gear. Is that bad?

3. Do you have to rev the engine as you release the clutch to get into 3,4,5 or do you just release the clutch gradually?

1. Try let out the clutch out quickly while giving a little gas, if you feel the car is gonna stall, just push the clutch all the way in and start over again. You will get the feel of it after just a little bit of practice and then you will be able to get moving quickly every time.

2. For street driving and for the most part, when coming to a stop, just break without depress the clutch, push in the clutch once the engine speed is near idol, shift to neutral and release clutch. For slowing down to a very slow speed without stopping and then get going again, do the same as above, but instead of shift to N, while clutch is depressed, rev the engine a bit and shift to a lower gear and release clutch and give more gas to accelerate.

3. You don't need to give more gas while up shifting, but do not let of the gas completely too. Shift up and let off the clutch quickly and quickly apply some gas will usually give you a smooth ride.

[ChitownM3]

Originally Posted by niqui

sorry to thread jack, but a quesiton, when you shift down to slow down the car, for example, when exiting the highway; is it better for the car to drop the clutch slowly right?
i am asking because i find if you drop the clutch slowly, it takes too long to slow the car down...
when you guys are parked u always leave 1st engaged right>
someone told me on m's your not supposed to do this....i think that makes zero sense.

I drop the clutch slowly to slow down the car when downshifting, if the purpose is to slow down the car. If you drop the clutch fast the tires will lock up a little and screech, will feel like you just slammed the brakes. Also, when I park I have the parking brake on and 2nd gear engaged.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by ChitownM3

I drop the clutch slowly to slow down the car when downshifting, if the purpose is to slow down the car. If you drop the clutch fast the tires will lock up a little and screech, will feel like you just slammed the brakes. Also, when I park I have the parking brake on and 2nd gear engaged.

Matching revs to car speed and gear is too advanced for this guy right now. In a few weeks he'll be ready for more discussion, but he needs to work on this smoothness simply upshifting for now.

He should ask about blipping the throttle and heel-and-toe a little further down the road.

Dave

[spyderco10]

when slowing down, blip the thottle before engaging the lower gear to match engine speed with road speed. then once you're mastered that, you can practive heel and toe. which is the above, but doing this while applying the brakes.

or you could get a dct, which does this for you.

[endofanera7]

haha you really remind me of myself when I was learning how to drive a manual... I had those exact same questions...

Best of luck and yes, the suggestions from the fellow forum members are really good and it should help you a lot. Practice makes perfect...

It will be a lot more fun when you start learning about heel-toe rev match etc.... that's why you wanna get 6MT, to get the most fun out of your car!

[2008e93M3lease]

Thanks for all the help! You guys are awesome.

[!Xoible]

Use this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112651

[jlaw]

Originally Posted by !Xoible

Use this: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112651

To the OP: I would be very cautious about any "advice" given by the quoted poster or in that thread. Anyone advocating double clutching in a modern BMW clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by jlaw

To the OP: I would be very cautious about any "advice" given by the quoted poster or in that thread. Anyone advocating double clutching in a modern BMW clearly has no idea what they are talking about.

There's nothing wrong with double clutching in an M3. I do it most of the time. I agree that our OP doesn't need to be concerned with it. I find that double clutching takes tension off the synchronizers and, since there's plenty of time to downshift when braking, it doesn't slow me down, so I continue to do it. I even use it on the upshifts when it gets below zero here and the gearbox is REALLY tight. You can feel the gears slide effortlessly into place when you do it right.

The negative of double clutching is that it trades stress on the pilot and throwout bearing for stress on the synchronizers. I've paid for this with six cars that had one or the other bearing go out, or both, but never having ruined a synchro. There was a time when BMW synchros needed all the help that they could get, but I think we are indeed past that.


Dave

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by niqui

sorry to thread jack, but a quesiton, when you shift down to slow down the car, for example, when exiting the highway; is it better for the car to drop the clutch slowly right?
i am asking because i find if you drop the clutch slowly, it takes too long to slow the car down...
when you guys are parked u always leave 1st engaged right>
someone told me on m's your not supposed to do this....i think that makes zero sense.

IMHO you should not be using the transmission to slow down the car. That is what the brakes are for. Downshifting to slow down without "blipping" the accelerator to match revs is a very good way to spin out particularly if you are turning whch is generally the case when you are leaving the highway. You may get away with it but if the car is close to the limits of adhesion the sudden deceleration can shift the weight to the front of the car and cause the rear end to come around. This is called "Trailing Clutch Oversteer" (TCO). You should always "blip" (match revs) when downshifting. On a fully synchonized transmission like the one on a BMW it is not necessary to double clutch but downshifting without matching revs is not a good idea. You should also get your downshifting completed before the track out point of the turn.

CA

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dcstep

There's nothing wrong with double clutching in an M3. I do it most of the time. I agree that our OP doesn't need to be concerned with it. I find that double clutching takes tension off the synchronizers and, since there's plenty of time to downshift when braking, it doesn't slow me down, so I continue to do it. I even use it on the upshifts when it gets below zero here and the gearbox is REALLY tight. You can feel the gears slide effortlessly into place when you do it right.

The negative of double clutching is that it trades stress on the pilot and throwout bearing for stress on the synchronizers. I've paid for this with six cars that had one or the other bearing go out, or both, but never having ruined a synchro. There was a time when BMW synchros needed all the help that they could get, but I think we are indeed past that.


Dave

Agreed. There is nothing wrong with double clutching. It may not be necessary on a BMW but there it does no harm. I got in the habit of double clutching years ago and always drive an MT that way.

CA

[argonboy]

One easy way to start off when you get comfortable is:
Start lifting off the clutch lightly and when you feel it starting to engage give it gas progressively.

Try in a parking lot or something. At first it will be a little slow, then you'll be able to do it very quickly (i mean less than a second), but it's a way to not jerk passengers around.

My two cents, since one of the methods proposed is to do a quicker rev-up while lifting the clutch. That is not necessary unless you're launching.

[4nroots]

this is a good video to watch:

[lucid]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

IMHO you should not be using the transmission to slow down the car. That is what the brakes are for.

+1. Finally someone said it!

Why stress your transmission and engine to slow down the car? Brakes are much cheaper to maintain/replace.

[J08M3]

You can use the transmission to slow down with engine drag. But don't use the clutch to slow you down. There is a difference. If you want to slow down by shifting from 4th to 3rd make sure you rev-match. There is no harm done as long as you rev-match. But if you try to slow down by slowly letting out the clutch as you shift into 3rd you are essentially using the clutch as your brakes. Not good, and will wear out your clutch faster. If you're worried about locking up the wheels from downshifting like ChitownM3 described, rev-matching will eliminate that problem.

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by lucid

Why stress your transmission and engine to slow down the car? Brakes are much cheaper to maintain/replace.

What are you talkin' 'bout man? You use the transmission for all your acceleration and that's not hard on it accept in drag strip circumstances, mostly due to that sticky stuff the put down at the start. Slowing with the transmission is no big deal at all.

Maybe you're thinking about the dweebs that think that they need to downshift through every gear when coming to a stop on a city street. I agree that's a useless exercise. However, if I am accelerating through the gears and the light turns red on me, I'll just let off the gas and let the engine and transmission pull me down. Just this morning, coming out of my garage, I saw the light at the corner was green and thought that I might make it if I hustled. Well, I was over 4-grand in second and then the light changed against me. I just kept it in second and didn't touch the brakes until I was almost stopped.

Dave

[dcstep]

Originally Posted by lucid

Huh? The clutch is not a part of the tranmission? When you are accelerating after full engagement, nothing is slipping and the vibrations experienced by other parts such as gears are much lower.

Why would you slip the clutch when slowing down???

BTW, the clutch is NOT part of the transmission, it IS part of the drive train. Still, slowing with the transmission has no more impact on the clutch than accelerating. It should be fully engaged either way.

Dave