Finally got to test DCT.

[footie]

OK guys,

You know how much I am a fan and defender of the manual gearbox, well this is still the case but I can now speak with experience of the new DCT and what I have to say on the most part is good, no very good, no GREAT.

First the good points, this lag I hear so many comment on and find a concern for is really unfounded, the gearbox work perfectly and just as swamp described it, a little extra throttle and you move off with no problems what so ever. The gearbox also gives the car a total different character to the manual car, unlike the manual what is difficult to drive ultra smoothly with the DCT the car is ultra smooth and child's play to drive. Creep mode is a real plus in these systems and something I wish my DSG had, though I reckon the new one will include it so no worries. The D modes all work faultlessly and drop to the desired gear every time and lightening quick. S mode does still have a slight delay after flicking the paddle though not as bad as it was with the GTi but I felt the actual shift itself was quicker in the GTi than the M3 and this was right up to S5 though again this might be my memory playing tricks.

Now the sole bad point of the gearbox and I think most of you will already know what I am about to say, the surge. Why is it there, it feels artificial and fake, apart from that I got the feeling that there was more of a delay between shifts with it than there was without, I am sure there was a slight hesitation before the surge that wasn't there in S3, now please don't jump down my throat on this one as I didn't get to open the taps fully what with the sales manager and owner of this actual car beside me. I will agree that the surge is only present as a push with no negative jerk involved but there is no way that I personally will be running my car with it on normal day to day driving.

Has BMW improved the system compared to the original DSG, yes. It now has features that I would have dreamed of before and will make the ownership period far and a way more enjoyable.

Would I pick it as my first choice if I was either going to the track or as an occasional car............no, a manual has more emotion and connection which no paddle shifter will ever provide, but as a daily driver that the wife can jump into and drive without fear of stalling or something then this is without doubt the best option.

P.S.
On a different note, the E93 M3 I drove had no EDC and the suspension felt better sorted than the E92 I drove with it. Maybe the extra weight of the steel roof or maybe the suspension is tuned totally different to the coupe but this car was far more comfortable and rode the bumpy and crests the better of the two. Though I have specced EDC on mine I am starting to wonder was it money well spent.

With post a couple of pics later though it will pissing down and the shots are crap.

[rai]

great

glad we can all get along.

I'm lazy (in some ways) can you tell me how you get in creep mode?

My CA didn't give me one bit of instruction with the DCT, my car was first sold at the dealership.

To be quite honest, I do not know what you refer to 'surge' I don't believe I have experienced that yet.

Were you able to appreciate full throttle and near-redline shifts in your test drive? I'm still in break-in mode myself.

[rzm3]

thanks for the review

and edc is awesome especially if you drive both on roads and the track.

[sg///M3]

Originally Posted by rai

great

glad we can all get along.

I'm lazy (in some ways) can you tell me how you get in creep mode?

Tap the throttle when at a stop, and the car will maintain a "walking pace" - basically it will creep forward slowly without having to depress the gas pedal.

[footie]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

thanks for the review

and edc is awesome especially if you drive both on roads and the track.

I too thought the first time I drove the M3 with EDC that is was great, but the second time the car was kitted out with Schnitzer gear that according to the dealer included a suspension kit, that car bounced all over the show and after today run without EDC it got me thinking.

I'm pass trackdays, I have had my fill of racing and now personally prefer to tool around. I'm amazing I'm not driving a Volvo instead.

[valeram]

[QUOTE=footie;2838700]Would I pick it as my first choice if I was either going to the track or as an occasional car............no, a manual has more emotion and connection which no paddle shifter will ever provide, but as a daily driver that the wife can jump into and drive without fear of stalling or something then this is without doubt the best option.
QUOTE]

Exactly the same reason why I chose M-DCT but I am pretty sure that I will miss the MT .

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by footie

I'm amazing I'm not driving a Volvo instead.

Blasphemy........don't say such things

[Gearhead999s]

You have confirmed my thinking & reservations as I am totaly pleased with my 6 speed car and the only reason at this point would be to accomodate my wifes lack of ability to drive a 3 pedal car.
I think that on the EDC as I feel its the best comprimise between the firmness needed for track use & compliance and control for normal street use.I have put about 400 kms on in the last day on business in around Toronto and I continue to be amazed at how capable this car is in normal usage and gets somewhat decent fuel milege at 22.42 IMP MPG in normal urban use.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

You have confirmed my thinking & reservations as I am totaly pleased with my 6 speed car and the only reason at this point would be to accomodate my wifes lack of ability to drive a 3 pedal car.
I think that on the EDC as I feel its the best comprimise between the firmness needed for track use & compliance and control for normal street use.I have put about 400 kms on in the last day on business in around Toronto and I continue to be amazed at how capable this car is in normal usage and gets somewhat decent fuel milege at 22.42 IMP MPG in normal urban use.

The thing that shocked me more than anything was how much the whole character of the car has changed with the gearbox and it's even more understandable why BMW choose to launch it with the E93, it may be quicker than the manual but it's got the ability to be a big cruiser, a Grand tourer if you like. With this gearbox it's moving in character closer to my S5, only with all of the ability to handle with the best of them.

The suspension thing really surprised me, I honestly thought the stock damper kit would have been a lot firmer than it was, the only explanation I can give is either the extra weight of the E93 over the coupe (steamrolling the bumps) or the Cab has a softer tuning suspension than the coupe which is even more surprising given that when body stiffness falls the suspension is usually stiffened to compensate.

[Mickb]

Footie

Just to add to some of your points on S5 mode. I note you weren't "on it" due to salesman in the car.

In my car, the speed of the shift seems to be linked to the amount of throttle you are applying.

When you are on full throttle i.e. past the detente point for the auto kickdown (don't know if you felt that) the shift delay is virtually zero. Especially at 7000+ rpm.

You can also smooth out the shift and force it to be immediate by giving a v ery slight lift of the throttle. I don't mean a complete lift; remain on the throttle while ever so slightly softening the pressure. Revs drop immediately.

And my theory on the surge? It feels exactly like a manual car if you force shifts without lifting throttle. On full bore upshifts, when the gears re-engage, because you have been constantly on throttle the engine speed is higher than it would ordinarily be on an upshift when revs would normally fall for the new gear. I think the surge is what you feel as a result (i.e. the drivetrain and engine speeds syncing)

Either way, you don't feel a let up in acceleration and I think its bloody fantastic.

Mick

[mkoesel]

Good post MickB...

Originally Posted by Mickb

When you are on full throttle i.e. past the detente point for the auto kickdown (don't know if you felt that) the shift delay is virtually zero. Especially at 7000+ rpm.

What's this? Explain to me this detent point? It's the first I've heard of such a thing. I know what you mean - you are talking about the point where the car downshifts for you in auto mode because you mash the pedal and it knows what you are trying to do. But the idea that you can feel the point at which this will occur, that's new to me. I know that on a Steptronic (i.e non-M, non-manual) car you can actually feel it, but I did not know this existed for M-DCT.

[Mickb]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Good post MickB...



What's this? Explain to me this detent point? It's the first I've heard of such a thing. I know what you mean - you are talking about the point where the car downshifts for you in auto mode because you mash the pedal and it knows what you are trying to do. But the idea that you can feel the point at which this will occur, that's new to me. I know that on a Steptronic (i.e non-M, non-manual) car you can actually feel it, but I did not know this existed for M-DCT.

My pedal has a detente point........beyond a certain point you can actually feel a "click" of sorts........you don't hear it but feel it. Now in auto mode, going there forces the box to kickdown, often more than one gear. The manual calls it "the pressure point".

In sequential mode, I have found that when the throttle is depressed beyond this pressure point, an upshift is triggered almost intantly when the paddle is pulled, without the delay others have referred to.

Also, lets say you are in sequential mode, quite a cool feature is that you can downshift more than 2 gears with a single pull of the down paddle if you press the throttle past this pressure point. Lets say for example you are cruising in 7th and an overtaking opportunity arises. You could pull hte paddle 3-4 times to get to 3rd/4th, or alternatively just massh the throttle past this pressure point and pull once and the box will automatically find the gear that delivers optimum torque for that road speed. Its brilliant.

I honestly feel that so many people are bashing this box without having either driven it, or if they have it was on short test drives or they are too lazy to rtfm or experiment.

Mick

[skierman64]

The detent point is the last bit of travel on the accelerator pedal, just prior to be being full throttle. You can feel a detent in the pedal that causes a kickdown in automode, and it must be in the detent in order to stay in launch mode on a launch control start.

I don't know if you can feel the detent with engine off or not.

[enigma]

Originally Posted by Mickb

I honestly feel that so many people are bashing this box without having either driven it, or if they have it was on short test drives or they are too lazy to rtfm or experiment.

Mick

Or the start with a pre-conceived notion and look for ways to justify it.

[ase2dais]

Originally Posted by footie

....

Would I pick it as my first choice if I was either going to the track or as an occasional car............no, a manual has more emotion and connection which no paddle shifter will ever provide, but as a daily driver that the wife can jump into and drive without fear of stalling or something then this is without doubt the best option.

I was worried when I was reading this, since I was on the fence with this one...I found the statement I was looking for.

thks for the review footie, as I thought.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Mickb

Footie

Just to add to some of your points on S5 mode. I note you weren't "on it" due to salesman in the car.

In my car, the speed of the shift seems to be linked to the amount of throttle you are applying.

When you are on full throttle i.e. past the detente point for the auto kickdown (don't know if you felt that) the shift delay is virtually zero. Especially at 7000+ rpm.

You can also smooth out the shift and force it to be immediate by giving a v ery slight lift of the throttle. I don't mean a complete lift; remain on the throttle while ever so slightly softening the pressure. Revs drop immediately.

And my theory on the surge? It feels exactly like a manual car if you force shifts without lifting throttle. On full bore upshifts, when the gears re-engage, because you have been constantly on throttle the engine speed is higher than it would ordinarily be on an upshift when revs would normally fall for the new gear. I think the surge is what you feel as a result (i.e. the drivetrain and engine speeds syncing)

Either way, you don't feel a let up in acceleration and I think its bloody fantastic.

Mick

Yeah, not fully in it but pretty close given the conditions and the owner beside me.

Your theory on the feel and how the surge is occurring mimics my own, nothing more needs to be said on the subject.

How best to describe the surge, first the experience, it felt like you got nudged from behind by another car, it seems to come right from the boot. The delay I was talking about earlier, the only way I can describe it is that after flicking the paddle you watch the revs drop but there seems the briefest of delays before the surge is felt and then the acceleration continues, this wasn't noticed with S3 and it may be in my head but on the throttle I was giving that is exactly how it felt to me. The surge may get better the nearer you are to full throttle and at maximum revs but from where I am standing it felt very artificial and dare I say it fake. To me S3 felt every bit as quick even though in practice this might not be the case.

I did notice how a brief lift in throttle removed the surge from S5, similar to SMG I believe.

P.S.
The most enlightening thing about the experience of the drive was when I got back into my manual S5, where as the DCT felt a doddle to drive and drive smoothly the Audi's clutch and gearbox felt cumbersome, but as I increased the speed and started to flow with the corner on the back road back to work the whole connection thing clicked again. Though this was short lived as I hit heavy stop/start traffic and wished I was back in the M3 again.

The thing is both systems have their merits and downfalls and you commitments and driving conditions dictate as much as anything which is the right choice for you. With my ankle and the wife to think about the DCT suits my needs best but I know I will always have that yearning for the manual.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by footie

OK guys,



First the good points, this lag I hear so many comment on and find a concern for is really unfounded, the gearbox work perfectly and just as swamp described it, a little extra throttle and you move off with no problems what so ever. The gearbox also gives the car a total different character to the manual car, unlike the manual what is difficult to drive ultra smoothly with the DCT the car is ultra smooth and child's play to drive. Creep mode is a real plus in these systems and something I wish my DSG had, though I reckon the new one will include it so no worries. The D modes all work faultlessly and drop to the desired gear every time and lightening quick. S mode does still have a slight delay after flicking the paddle though not as bad as it was with the GTi but I felt the actual shift itself was quicker in the GTi than the M3 and this was right up to S5 though again this might be my memory playing tricks.

Now the sole bad point of the gearbox and I think most of you will already know what I am about to say, the surge. Why is it there, it feels artificial and fake, apart from that I got the feeling that there was more of a delay between shifts with it than there was without, I am sure there was a slight hesitation before the surge that wasn't there in S3, now please don't jump down my throat on this one as I didn't get to open the taps fully what with the sales manager and owner of this actual car beside me. I will agree that the surge is only present as a push with no negative jerk involved but there is no way that I personally will be running my car with it on normal day to day driving.

Has BMW improved the system compared to the original DSG, yes. It now has features that I would have dreamed of before and will make the ownership period far and a way more enjoyable.

Would I pick it as my first choice if I was either going to the track or as an occasional car............no, a manual has more emotion and connection which no paddle shifter will ever provide, but as a daily driver that the wife can jump into and drive without fear of stalling or something then this is without doubt the best option.

P.S.
On a different note, the E93 M3 I drove had no EDC and the suspension felt better sorted than the E92 I drove with it. Maybe the extra weight of the steel roof or maybe the suspension is tuned totally different to the coupe but this car was far more comfortable and rode the bumpy and crests the better of the two. Though I have specced EDC on mine I am starting to wonder was it money well spent.

With post a couple of pics later though it will pissing down and the shots are crap.

I agree with most of your points. Having driven both a 6MT non EDC coupe and an EDC equipped DCT coupe, both after the 1200mi break in period I can say I agree with most your points. I personally liked the non EDC suspension however its firmer than the normal setting in EDC and a little jarring at times, not unlike my modded E36 M.

I agree with you that the DCT changes the character of the car a little. However, my feeling was that DCT made going fast in the M very very easy and the acceleration much more brutal than in the 6MT....

However, you are comparing the piggy cabrio to a coupe.

Jason

[Manalope]

Hi,

I've seen videos and read some descriptions of what I think you may have felt when you tested it. My old 360, even in sport mode, would not have an "instant" shift unless you were at full throttle and really going for it...

The DCT is much faster than the F1 system in the Ferrari but its possible that the M3 is smoothing the shifts unless you are at full throttle and near redline... you'd have to ask owners who are past their break-in period (mine wont be here for a couple weeks)

[500]

I'm sure with some minor-moderate software improvements the DCT will shine in all areas; perhaps this will occur with the 09's...

[skierman64]

There's no surge in S2 or S3 modes at all. S4 is slight and S5 is more pronounced.

So even footie's only negative comment about the tranny can be dialed out or turned off.

[swamp2]

Some like myself find the transmission nearly perfect, others like it just because they can't drive a MT. Some dislike it based on decent reasons and yet others dislike it based on really poor reasoning. Others somewhat begrudgingly like it and footie fits a bit into the last category. Listen to all of the opinions from all of the types above before making your own purchasing decision. Or better yet, although it will be difficult - get your own test drive. It is only going to get easier and eaiser over time to get one. It is certainly the most conservative way to proceed if you are seriously considering the car.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by skierman64

There's no surge in S2 or S3 modes at all. S4 is slight and S5 is more pronounced.

So even footie's only negative comment about the tranny can be dialed out or turned off.

Great point. As well surge is driving style dependent, basically the higher rpm at which the shift occurs, the more surge.