When the tail goes?

[footie]

OK guys, a simple question. When the tail snaps out on you which system makes it easiest to control, awd, rwd or fwd?

[Hammer]

Depends on many things.

usualy the awd, in some special constelations the rwd, but afaik never the fwd.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Hammer

Depends on many things.

usualy the awd, in some special constelations the rwd, but afaik never the fwd.

Are you sure about that?

[KonigsTiger]

AWD would probably be the best!!!!

[S65B40]

AWD. I remeber doing all the power slides in my old STi effortlessly, it had tons of traction.

[footie]

I think we need some of the experienced members of this forum to air their opinions.

[GT3 Tim]

Originally Posted by footie

OK guys, a simple question. When the tail snaps out on you which system makes it easiest to control, awd, rwd or fwd?

Easiest to control HOW?

Do you want to keep the tail out, eg: drift and look "cool" or do you want to correct the slide asap and continue on your way?

[tdc]

Doesn't matter what configuration as each have their own pro's and con's.

What matters most is driver skill.

[kbk_75]

I'd say RWD is the easiest to throttle steer with. AWD makes true tail slides difficult, and I've NEVER had a FWD go loose at the back, understeer is the FWD problem!

[Hans Delbruck]

LOL, that's not a simple question to THIS forum. You are just starting another debate.

AWD is the easiest to drive fast, I have no doubt in my mind. A noob can take an EVO and turn fast lap times right away.

Problem is, the guys who always drive AWD on the track learn very little about car control... therefore when the tail actually does begin to come around, they have no idea what to do.... = big trouble.

I guess that didn't really answer your question, because it depends on who's driving the car. AWD is like Superman IMO. But with great power comes great responsibility. Or was that Spiderman?

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

LOL, that's not a simple question to THIS forum. You are just starting another debate.

AWD is the easiest to drive fast, I have no doubt in my mind. A noob can take an EVO and turn fast lap times right away.

Problem is, the guys who always drive AWD on the track learn very little about car control... therefore when the tail actually does begin to come around, they have no idea what to do.... = big trouble.

I guess that didn't really answer your question, because it depends on who's driving the car. AWD is like Superman IMO. But with great power comes great responsibility. Or was that Spiderman?

There is also the issue for the most part with the lack of steering feel and understeer generally associated with AWD. Not always the case though!!

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

... But with great power comes great responsibility. Or was that Spiderman?

No, it's: power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

kbk_75's response is probably the best response here, with the caveat that it is a generalization and there will be exceptions.

[m3larson]

How about you just hold on, clinch your but cheeks and start laughing after the tail slide is over?

[goldminer]

Originally Posted by footie

OK guys, a simple question. When the tail snaps out on you which system makes it easiest to control, awd, rwd or fwd?

When you say it snaps out I assume you mean this was unexpected, you are starting to spin and you would like to catch it and correct it.

In that instance you back off the throttle and steer into the skid. So if you back off the throttle I would think that there would be only a small difference between the three drive types as no power is being applied. Having said that, a rear wheel drive car with a manual tranny (therefore having a direct mechanical connection to the rear wheels) will put a little pit of engine breaking to the rear helping to slow it down and pull it back in. I would think that an FWD would do the opposite and and AWD car would be neutral. If an auto tranny were involved, and it unlocked its torque converter, I would think that there would be no engine breaking and it would make no difference. Also if you put the clutch in on the manual there would be no difference.

[Hans Delbruck]

If someone's truly interested, I highly recommend the book "Going Faster" by Carl Lopez/Skip Barber. Much better place to read about car control than on "the internets"

[footie]

Originally Posted by GT3 Tim

Easiest to control HOW?

Do you want to keep the tail out, eg: drift and look "cool" or do you want to correct the slide asap and continue on your way?

Like you have already said, tail out is to look cool and has no place on the race track unless it's a drifting contest. So you are right, you want to correct it asap but more than that, I am meaning when the slide occurs when you least expect it and is approaching the point of no return.

Originally Posted by goldminer

When you say it snaps out I assume you mean this was unexpected, you are starting to spin and you would like to catch it and correct it.

That's right, I choose to word snap because it's not a controlled drift. The only objective is to catch the tail before your looking out the rear window at what ever it is you are about the hit.

Originally Posted by goldminer

In that instance you back off the throttle and steer into the skid. So if you back off the throttle I would think that there would be only a small difference between the three drive types as no power is being applied. Having said that, a rear wheel drive car with a manual tranny (therefore having a direct mechanical connection to the rear wheels) will put a little pit of engine breaking to the rear helping to slow it down and pull it back in. I would think that an FWD would do the opposite and and AWD car would be neutral. If an auto tranny were involved, and it unlocked its torque converter, I would think that there would be no engine breaking and it would make no difference. Also if you put the clutch in on the manual there would be no difference.

The answer is the one which seems to be most alien in it's approach and the one form that most BMW drivers feels is the worst possible system, (no T-Bone it's not AWD).

The best for this situation is actually fwd, unlike a rwd car which only has controlling power of the over the wheels which are already swinging in the wind, the fwd chassis has an ace up it's sleeve, yeah that's right it's understeer, with it you apply full throttle to pull the nose wide (understeer) which has the desired effect of pulling the rear back into line and thus disaster controlled.

Awd to a lesser extent will do the same thing, only it will take a little long and this will depend on how much power can go to the front wheels, the more the better.

Rwd is the one which is hardest to control in this situation and unless you are bloody quick with the wheel it's rear-end bye, bye the soonest too.

Not the outcome some might have expected but the consolation is you are having the most fun up to that point.

GT3 Tim, would you concur.

[Hans Delbruck]

Footie, did you pose this question just to express your "knowledge" on car control and "what's best"? Because you missed some key points in your summary. Mainly that the way you correct a slide depends on what caused the slide in the first place. Was it power-on oversteer? Did you lift? Big difference in what you need to do next.

Not that I know everything.... just pointing this out.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

Footie, did you pose this question just to express your "knowledge" on car control and "what's best"? Because you missed some key points in your summary. Mainly that the way you correct a slide depends on what caused the slide in the first place. Was it power-on oversteer? Did you lift? Big difference in what you need to do next.

Not that I know everything.... just pointing this out.

Power-on oversteer means you made to slide happen in purpose and that was not my original question. The reason for the question was more to enlighten some members that rwd does not always have to answers and that the other systems have their merits.

My point was that when either done on purpose or by accident, if the rear goes beyond the point of little or no return (say 35degree) adding more power to the rear only adds to the problem and on a lot of occasions killing power will also add to the problem. No, with rwd you really have to on your game and on your toes which is why some many people regard it as a challenge to drive well and drive quickly.

[Hans Delbruck]

Originally Posted by footie

with rwd you really have to on your game and on your toes which is why some many people regard it as a challenge to drive well and drive quickly.

Agreed... esp RWD with a lot of power!

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by footie

OK guys, a simple question. When the tail snaps out on you which system makes it easiest to control, awd, rwd or fwd?

FWD get off the brake and stand on it!I know what I speak here as I have raced both FWD & RWD.FWD is much easier to drive,but rwd is much more fun & rewarding when its done properly.

Thats me in about 1975 in Quebec ice racing in a Fiat 128.There is no windsheild because I rolled in the morning.

[whym3]

So looks like on Public ROads
1) with avergae driver skill, RWD is diffucult to drive fast around corners over AWD, is this true?
2) If the above is true a Good Awd car like Audi RS4 are better over M3, I dont think so because many reviews like M3 over Rs4

I think from all reviews the M3 had huge grip around corners

for pure fun cornering wise which is more ideal AWD or RWD?

I heard that if AWD spins it is very difcult to get it back and with traction ON is it possible to spin the M3?

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

OK guys, a simple question. When the tail snaps out on you which system makes it easiest to control, awd, rwd or fwd?

Good question. I personally think it will vary a lot with rwd cars, but one thing is clearly true: When you get the tail loose on a front wheel drive car, it always has the simplest solution. Gas it!

In fact, "Gas it!" is pretty much what you do when you get into nearly any kind of trouble with a fwd car.

Same advice for a tail-out awd car. On the other hand, they'll understeer when you're whacking the gas in a corner, so get out of it if you're about to drive off the track.

Porsche? Whatever you do, don't let off!

Bruce