First Drive by a racing instructor

[e36jakeo]

So I finally got to drive the M3 (sedan), too. I have been a race instructor for 5 years, and I time trial competitively in a tracked-out E36 M3 (thus maybe I know what I am talking about).

I have a V2 335i, so the M3's power less on the low end and slightly better on the high-end (as expected by the torque curves of each car). The V8 sounded great and that NA throttle response is wonderful. I took it to 8K RPM (seemed to have an artificial rev limiter set below 8400) but it pulled strong all the way up there. Many have said it does not seem as fast due to the flat torque curve, and I agree. My 335i snaps your head back at 2500 RPMs and pulls hard with 440 lb feet of torque until 5000 RPM when it begins to trail off. The turbo kick makes the head snap that much more apparent. In comparison the M3 builds power efficiently with less snap. This is much better for road course work since you can more easily balance the handling with precise throttle inputs, and you can get the most out of rear traction when exiting a corner. But it really takes away from the feeling of accelleration and speed. (I have driven a C6 Z06 and a Ferrari F430, and even though these cars are very similar in 1/4 mile and 0-60 numbers the Z06's torque makes it seem quite a bit faster).

I was impressed with the EDC. On the soft setting it road like a 335i sport with stiffer springs and softer shocks - very comfortable. The car does not feel edgy. On the middle setting it definitely road harder, but still not horrible (keep in mind, I drive an E36 M3 with Turner's Group N track suspension to and from the track ). The stiffest setting is STIFF. It probably should be reserved for glassy smooth tracks like Infinion.

I hit 100 MPH in third gear and it just keeps pulling and pulling. I took it through some twisties at a very decent clip (for a test drive with a salesman in the car) and it was rock-solid and sounded terrific. The sales guy was pretty brave to trust me as a race car driver (the heel-toe downshifting clued him in). The steering was better than I thought it might be, and maybe equivalent to the 335i's in terms of road feel. I was relieved since it has been often criticized.

There is no doubt it is a very nicely integrated package. The dilemma is that the 335i is already excellent, the power delivery for most every day driving in the 335i is perhaps more satisfying since it gives you a shot in the back at any RPM and in any situation, it gets great fuel economy (28 MPG over 300 miles of 70 MPH driving today), and feels MOSTLY like an M3. The whole time I was driving the M3 I kept asking myself "is this car worth $20K over the 335i?" With V2 power it is VERY hard to justify as a street car. I take my racing skills to some of the best back roads in Northern Cal and the 335i shines there, too (way more than most realize).

If I sell the 335i for $38K or so it will cost an additional $25K after tax to get into a similarly-equipped M3. That's a ton of cash. I now am strongly considering getting a really nice variable ramp LSD for $4500 installed and KW2 suspension for around $2K installed and hold onto the 335i for at least another 2 year. By then they will work any bugs out of the M3 and I will be able to pick up a year-old one for $53K or less.

Hate to say it, but as a performance car I think a tuned and developed 135i is going to be THE car. Much lighter than an M3 (350 lbs), more nimble, slight rear-weight distribution, and huge turbo potential will make it a crazy performance machine.

As an out-of-the-box performer the M3 is no doubt an awesome ride (and will me even more awesome when m-DCT arrives), but it is also a lot of dough, so you gotta do more than drive off-ramps and straight line stuff to appreciate it.

[E46 Dave]

440 lbs. of torque in a335 ?? I read it was 300hp and 300 lbs torque

[M3Kevin]

I drove a 335i before driving the M3. all I have to say is 335i =

M3 totally different beasty.

[M3Kevin]

Ok - sorry I just had to post my initial reaction to the review.

Seriously now. 70k for the M3 is an expensive car.

I read about M3's in one of the car mags R&T or something. Anyway - I went down to the local BMW dealership and asked if I could see an 08 M3. Of course, they did not have any in early Feb. Just some pics and brochures.

They insisted that I drive a 335i stick, which I did. Which I just plain hated. The steering was light, the car was gutless, it was not exciting. I could have had a bad car who knows - but I almost got out and left thinking that BMW's sucked.

Well I told the salesman to give me a call when the new M's got into town. I am happy that he did as the M3 was a totally different experience with the M settings etc...

Anyway - I have to disagree that a stock/factory built 335i is NOT an M3. Two totally different cars.

[bills742]

Originally Posted by E46 Dave

440 lbs. of torque in a335 ?? I read it was 300hp and 300 lbs torque

Those are stock numbers. He has a Vishnu upgrade.

[Revin9k]

Everytime i read these comparisons i cant help but think that all these V2 335's have voided their warranties. Ya 20k is alot of money..but you're getting a totally different experience...its not just HP and Handeling.

I don't race, i dont track...but having a V8 that revs to 8400rpms is way too much fun. Who cares if the 335 has more torque...the sound of the V8 more than makes up for it.

If you're going to compare a moded 335 to a stock M3...then might as well compare a turbo civic hatch along as well..cause its probably faster than both.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by Revin9k

Everytime i read these comparisons i cant help but think that all these V2 335's have voided their warranties. Ya 20k is alot of money..but you're getting a totally different experience...its not just HP and Handeling.

I don't race, i dont track...but having a V8 that revs to 8400rpms is way too much fun. Who cares if the 335 has more torque...the sound of the V8 more than makes up for it.

If you're going to compare a moded 335 to a stock M3...then might as well compare a turbo civic hatch along as well..cause its probably faster than both.

A Dinan ECU/DME flash for the 335i allows the car to retain the warranty. Dinan flashed cars are putting down about 333rwhp and 366 lbs tq on the dyno. Pretty solid numbers.

[Revin9k]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

A Dinan ECU/DME flash for the 335i allows the car to retain the warranty. Dinan flashed cars are putting down about 333rwhp and 366 lbs tq on the dyno. Pretty solid numbers.

Dinan cant even touch a V2 335. Dinan runs a 13sec 1/4 mile

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by Revin9k

Everytime i read these comparisons i cant help but think that all these V2 335's have voided their warranties.

Vishnu is completely removable. The dealer will not know that you were running the Vishnu ECU

From Vishnu web site...

Q: Is the PROcede 100% undetectable by the dealership?
A: Yes, as long as the PROCEDE with all components are removed carefully and completely.

[Revin9k]

Originally Posted by ideliver

Vishnu is completely removable. The dealer will not know that you were running the Vishnu ECU

From Vishnu web site...

Q: Is the PROcede 100% undetectable by the dealership?
A: Yes, as long as the PROCEDE with all components are removed carefully and completely.

I know that much...thats a hassle though. I wouldnt know how to do it myself.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by M3Kevin

They insisted that I drive a 335i stick, which I did. Which I just plain hated. The steering was light, the car was gutless, it was not exciting. I could have had a bad car who knows - but I almost got out and left thinking that BMW's sucked.

If you thought the 335i was "gutless", then either you had a very shitty car with a bad fuel pump, or you have no experience driving cars. "Gutless" is reserved for things like mini-vans, SUVs and crappy American-made sedans with weak I4's or low power V6's.

Hell, I wouldn't even call the 328i "gutless." And as the 335i meets or exceeds E46 M3 numbers in terms of acceleration, 0-60 and 1/4 mile traps, I guess you'd call an E46 M3 "gutless" too?

Now, the 335i and the M3 are two different cars. The 335i is most certainly a "sleeper", and with Sport suspension, a solid performer. The M3 is an exceptional performer, but a little more "raw" too. But M3 buyers are looking for raw, so that isn't a negative feature.

With respect to performance, the M3 has the edge. How much? Well, the HP number is much higher by 114 HP, but torque is actually lower by 5 ft-lbs. In "official" terms, BMW states 4.7 sec 0-60 for the E92 M3 and 5.3 sec for the E92 335i. Half a second in the real world isn't that much.

Yes, yes, 0-60 times, blah blah blah, who gives a shit, right? Well, it is the only emperical evidence available AT THE MOMENT to compare performance. Let's get some 1/4 mile head-to-head drags going, and some head-to-head hot laps going and we can really see the difference. I would expect 1/4 mile traps to be higher due to the increased horsepower, and I would expect lap times to be faster too (given drivers of equivalent skill levels.)

As has been mentioned, the difference between the 335i and the M3 can be quite large, but also "not that much." I just spec'd an E90 M3 that I would order, and it came in at $60,000. I'd like to have m-drive and CA, but I don't want that POS navi system too! So I'm not willing to buy the Tech package for $4k (or whatever the official cost is.) BMW isn't allowing "a'la carte" ordering on key components, bastards.

So that $60,000 for the M3 is $15,000 more than what I paid for my 335i. Now let's look at what I could do with $15,000:
Vishnu V2 -$1,500
Coil-overs - $4,000 (just guessing here...)
LSD - $4,500 (probably a little conservative)
BBK - $3,500 (probably a little conservative too.)
Total - $13,500, before installation.

So in reality, to make my 335i roughly "equivalent" to an M3, it would cost the same. But, what am I missing? With a modded 335i I have NO WARRANTY!!! I also have shot the piss out of my resale value. Sure, an enthusiast may pay for those upgrades, but not likely. Mods don't add value to a car, they diminish it.

So in reality, the M3 wins here too. You get those extra performance upgrades, from the factory, with a warranty, and you'll retain better resale value too.

The only "neener-neener-neener"'s the 335i have are:
1.) No gas guzzler tax (I fucking hate paying more taxes....)
2.) Better fuel economy even with performance enhancements like V2.

In the end, if I could swing the $20k net spend to sell my 335i and get an E90 M3, I'd do it in a second!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by ideliver

Vishnu is completely removable. The dealer will not know that you were running the Vishnu ECU

From Vishnu web site...

Q: Is the PROcede 100% undetectable by the dealership?
A: Yes, as long as the PROCEDE with all components are removed carefully and completely.

Yes, two very important key words, carefully and completely. When your car breakdown in the middle of the road, would you tow the car to your house, removed procede, and then to dealer. Or tow directly to dealer and forgot entirely about the procede.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by scollins

If you thought the 335i was "gutless", then either you had a very shitty car with a bad fuel pump, or you have no experience driving cars. "Gutless" is reserved for things like mini-vans, SUVs and crappy American-made sedans with weak I4's or low power V6's.

Hell, I wouldn't even call the 328i "gutless." And as the 335i meets or exceeds E46 M3 numbers in terms of acceleration, 0-60 and 1/4 mile traps, I guess you'd call an E46 M3 "gutless" too?

Now, the 335i and the M3 are two different cars. The 335i is most certainly a "sleeper", and with Sport suspension, a solid performer. The M3 is an exceptional performer, but a little more "raw" too. But M3 buyers are looking for raw, so that isn't a negative feature.

With respect to performance, the M3 has the edge. How much? Well, the HP number is much higher by 114 HP, but torque is actually lower by 5 ft-lbs. In "official" terms, BMW states 4.7 sec 0-60 for the E92 M3 and 5.3 sec for the E92 335i. Half a second in the real world isn't that much.

Yes, yes, 0-60 times, blah blah blah, who gives a shit, right? Well, it is the only emperical evidence available AT THE MOMENT to compare performance. Let's get some 1/4 mile head-to-head drags going, and some head-to-head hot laps going and we can really see the difference. I would expect 1/4 mile traps to be higher due to the increased horsepower, and I would expect lap times to be faster too (given drivers of equivalent skill levels.)

As has been mentioned, the difference between the 335i and the M3 can be quite large, but also "not that much." I just spec'd an E90 M3 that I would order, and it came in at $60,000. I'd like to have m-drive and CA, but I don't want that POS navi system too! So I'm not willing to buy the Tech package for $4k (or whatever the official cost is.) BMW isn't allowing "a'la carte" ordering on key components, bastards.

So that $60,000 for the M3 is $15,000 more than what I paid for my 335i. Now let's look at what I could do with $15,000:
Vishnu V2 -$1,500
Coil-overs - $4,000 (just guessing here...)
LSD - $4,500 (probably a little conservative)
BBK - $3,500 (probably a little conservative too.)
Total - $13,500, before installation.

So in reality, to make my 335i roughly "equivalent" to an M3, it would cost the same. But, what am I missing? With a modded 335i I have NO WARRANTY!!! I also have shot the piss out of my resale value. Sure, an enthusiast may pay for those upgrades, but not likely. Mods don't add value to a car, they diminish it.

So in reality, the M3 wins here too. You get those extra performance upgrades, from the factory, with a warranty, and you'll retain better resale value too.

The only "neener-neener-neener"'s the 335i have are:
1.) No gas guzzler tax (I fucking hate paying more taxes....)
2.) Better fuel economy even with performance enhancements like V2.

In the end, if I could swing the $20k net spend to sell my 335i and get an E90 M3, I'd do it in a second!

WIth similar equipment (sunroof, nice stereo, leather, 6-speed, premium package) an M3 will run $18K more than a 335i. Then factor in the fact you can get $2K off sticker of a 335i vs. paying sticker for the M3. That is a $20K difference.

Suspension is $2K installed. LSD is up to $5K installed. Procede is $1400. Brakes are not a real issue since either will need track pads and, with them, should be fine. So for $8400 you get very close in all-around performance (switch to PS2s when you wear out your run flats and you will be even closer).

The warranty thing is a real concern, and one that make me consider the M3 for that reason alone. But in all reality it is a very small risk. The fuel economy difference adds about $750 a year to the cost of the M3 over the cost of the 335i (if you drive 15k miles per year).

The fact is a 335i is very good, and tuned it is even better. It is not a night and day difference between the cars, since they are built on basically the same platform, have similar interiors, handling dynamics are similar, etc. If the M3 cost $10K more I would already have one. But it doesn't and $20K is almost a 50% increase!!

I will keep considering geting the M3 every day. The fact I have not ordered one shows how good the 335i is.

[Just_me]

For me its not about being the fastest in straightline, its all about satisfaction. M3 moved my feelings better than 335i did.
If money is no problem, I know what I would spend my money on.

[lvwirelessguy]

Originally Posted by Just_me

For me its not about being the fastest in straightline, its all about satisfaction. M3 moved my feelings better than 335i did.
If money is no problem, I know what I would spend my money on.

I couldnt agree more. The 335i doesnt get the emotions going like an M3 can, not even close. Plus it handles very sloppy in stock form

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

So I finally got to drive the M3 (sedan), too. I have been a race instructor for 5 years, and I time trial competitively in a tracked-out E36 M3 (thus maybe I know what I am talking about).

I have a V2 335i, so the M3's power less on the low end and slightly better on the high-end (as expected by the torque curves of each car). The V8 sounded great and that NA throttle response is wonderful. I took it to 8K RPM (seemed to have an artificial rev limiter set below 8400) but it pulled strong all the way up there. Many have said it does not seem as fast due to the flat torque curve, and I agree. My 335i snaps your head back at 2500 RPMs and pulls hard with 440 lb feet of torque until 5000 RPM when it begins to trail off. The turbo kick makes the head snap that much more apparent. In comparison the M3 builds power efficiently with less snap. This is much better for road course work since you can more easily balance the handling with precise throttle inputs, and you can get the most out of rear traction when exiting a corner. But it really takes away from the feeling of accelleration and speed. (I have driven a C6 Z06 and a Ferrari F430, and even though these cars are very similar in 1/4 mile and 0-60 numbers the Z06's torque makes it seem quite a bit faster).

I was impressed with the EDC. On the soft setting it road like a 335i sport with stiffer springs and softer shocks - very comfortable. The car does not feel edgy. On the middle setting it definitely road harder, but still not horrible (keep in mind, I drive an E36 M3 with Turner's Group N track suspension to and from the track ). The stiffest setting is STIFF. It probably should be reserved for glassy smooth tracks like Infinion.

I hit 100 MPH in third gear and it just keeps pulling and pulling. I took it through some twisties at a very decent clip (for a test drive with a salesman in the car) and it was rock-solid and sounded terrific. The sales guy was pretty brave to trust me as a race car driver (the heel-toe downshifting clued him in). The steering was better than I thought it might be, and maybe equivalent to the 335i's in terms of road feel. I was relieved since it has been often criticized.

There is no doubt it is a very nicely integrated package. The dilemma is that the 335i is already excellent, the power delivery for most every day driving in the 335i is perhaps more satisfying since it gives you a shot in the back at any RPM and in any situation, it gets great fuel economy (28 MPG over 300 miles of 70 MPH driving today), and feels MOSTLY like an M3. The whole time I was driving the M3 I kept asking myself "is this car worth $20K over the 335i?" With V2 power it is VERY hard to justify as a street car. I take my racing skills to some of the best back roads in Northern Cal and the 335i shines there, too (way more than most realize).

If I sell the 335i for $38K or so it will cost an additional $25K after tax to get into a similarly-equipped M3. That's a ton of cash. I now am strongly considering getting a really nice variable ramp LSD for $4500 installed and KW2 suspension for around $2K installed and hold onto the 335i for at least another 2 year. By then they will work any bugs out of the M3 and I will be able to pick up a year-old one for $53K or less.

Hate to say it, but as a performance car I think a tuned and developed 135i is going to be THE car. Much lighter than an M3 (350 lbs), more nimble, slight rear-weight distribution, and huge turbo potential will make it a crazy performance machine.

As an out-of-the-box performer the M3 is no doubt an awesome ride (and will me even more awesome when m-DCT arrives), but it is also a lot of dough, so you gotta do more than drive off-ramps and straight line stuff to appreciate it.

I like reading these modded 335i vs stock M3 threads but I ask myself, why not just supercharge my E36 M3 if speed is all I care about? Why buy a Porsche when a modded EVO is faster in almost every regard....it never ends... If you want the M3 experience, you have to buy an M3...the 335i, as you said, only comes close...

Jason

[umwolverine]

I keep reading all these threads comparing the 335 to a M and I keep coming to the same conclusion. The 335 is a great car, there is no denying that. But why do you guys feel the need to justify how the two cars are the same or how the 335 is a better deal. The fact of the matter is the two cars are different. The M is a complete package!!! Speed, Power, Handling, Control, Styling, and most of all Prestige. A M is "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE"

[Johndoe]

Originally Posted by umwolverine

The M is a complete package!!! Speed, Power, Handling, Control, Styling, and most of all Prestige. A M is "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE"

fully agree....

[rvacha]

Thanks for the review!

[RandyB]

The 335i looks like a chick car next to the M3 - sorry. There is no denying the value, but I won't even blink when spending the extra money for an M3. It's worth it to me, and yes I have driven both, albeit in stock form.

[Keto]

I feel like a broken record, but echoing earlier sentiments in the thread, and many other threads like this one:

Depending on when you sell the car, the total cost of ownership of a modded 335 vs an M3 may not be all that different. Comparing costs only in regards to the upfront cost is incomplete. Additional hidden costs for modded cars (not an inclusive list):

1. Replacement of modded parts that break
2. Service charges for wear-and-tear items now not included in BMW maintenance
3. Repair costs following an accident --- will your insurance replace mods?
4. Service/repair costs for OEM parts that BMW thinks are broken due to mods

just a few, and of course the hassle factors, which may cost money as well as time:

1. Reputable shop to fix mods and associated possible delays
2. Convincing BMW to fix OEM parts affected by mods under OEM warranty
3. Replacing broken mod parts -- are they as available as the OEM stuff your dealer gets in a day, etc. Are you now paying for the fedex shipping of the part?
4. Hassle of obtaining warranty service from a smallish mod company vs large multinational corporation

Several of our members mitigate these concerns or budget for them. I post this not to argue about whether mods should be done at all -- clearly, for some, they should -- but to dispel the idea that modding is a practical way for a new 335 buyer to get a M3 for less money.

[hooligan55]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

So I finally got to drive the M3 (sedan), too. I have been a race instructor for 5 years, and I time trial competitively in a tracked-out E36 M3 (thus maybe I know what I am talking about).

I have a V2 335i, so the M3's power less on the low end and slightly better on the high-end (as expected by the torque curves of each car). The V8 sounded great and that NA throttle response is wonderful. I took it to 8K RPM (seemed to have an artificial rev limiter set below 8400) but it pulled strong all the way up there. Many have said it does not seem as fast due to the flat torque curve, and I agree. My 335i snaps your head back at 2500 RPMs and pulls hard with 440 lb feet of torque until 5000 RPM when it begins to trail off. The turbo kick makes the head snap that much more apparent. In comparison the M3 builds power efficiently with less snap. This is much better for road course work since you can more easily balance the handling with precise throttle inputs, and you can get the most out of rear traction when exiting a corner. But it really takes away from the feeling of accelleration and speed. (I have driven a C6 Z06 and a Ferrari F430, and even though these cars are very similar in 1/4 mile and 0-60 numbers the Z06's torque makes it seem quite a bit faster).

I was impressed with the EDC. On the soft setting it road like a 335i sport with stiffer springs and softer shocks - very comfortable. The car does not feel edgy. On the middle setting it definitely road harder, but still not horrible (keep in mind, I drive an E36 M3 with Turner's Group N track suspension to and from the track ). The stiffest setting is STIFF. It probably should be reserved for glassy smooth tracks like Infinion.

I hit 100 MPH in third gear and it just keeps pulling and pulling. I took it through some twisties at a very decent clip (for a test drive with a salesman in the car) and it was rock-solid and sounded terrific. The sales guy was pretty brave to trust me as a race car driver (the heel-toe downshifting clued him in). The steering was better than I thought it might be, and maybe equivalent to the 335i's in terms of road feel. I was relieved since it has been often criticized.

There is no doubt it is a very nicely integrated package. The dilemma is that the 335i is already excellent, the power delivery for most every day driving in the 335i is perhaps more satisfying since it gives you a shot in the back at any RPM and in any situation, it gets great fuel economy (28 MPG over 300 miles of 70 MPH driving today), and feels MOSTLY like an M3. The whole time I was driving the M3 I kept asking myself "is this car worth $20K over the 335i?" With V2 power it is VERY hard to justify as a street car. I take my racing skills to some of the best back roads in Northern Cal and the 335i shines there, too (way more than most realize).

If I sell the 335i for $38K or so it will cost an additional $25K after tax to get into a similarly-equipped M3. That's a ton of cash. I now am strongly considering getting a really nice variable ramp LSD for $4500 installed and KW2 suspension for around $2K installed and hold onto the 335i for at least another 2 year. By then they will work any bugs out of the M3 and I will be able to pick up a year-old one for $53K or less.

Hate to say it, but as a performance car I think a tuned and developed 135i is going to be THE car. Much lighter than an M3 (350 lbs), more nimble, slight rear-weight distribution, and huge turbo potential will make it a crazy performance machine.

As an out-of-the-box performer the M3 is no doubt an awesome ride (and will me even more awesome when m-DCT arrives), but it is also a lot of dough, so you gotta do more than drive off-ramps and straight line stuff to appreciate it.

I'd be curious what your impressions would be after tracking the car. Or what you make of media reviews which have been on the track. Hard to compare test drive in one v. track time in another.