Vibration with winter kit (R2/BBS)

[aboulfad]

So after few weeks of driving with my new winter kit (Nokian R2 245/55R18 on BBS SR019), I came to the conclusion that there is a slight tiny vibration felt in steering wheel and throughout the interior of the car at Hwy speeds (115km/71mph). I have checked the pressure (32/35 psi), torque (103lb-ft), centering hubs installed correctly, and with the re-balancing I am almost thinking either it's normal or there's high other anomaly. Anyone has similar experience or some helpful hints? Thanks.

UPDATE 1: Initially I thought it's a balancing issue, brought the car in, they checked and said it needed one more weight in each wheel on passenger side. And the reason they missed it is because they didn't use the expensive disc with fingers, some odd concuction with a plate that has rods ... That they use on sports cars. After the re-balancing, it feels like it's the same or even a tad worse. They don't have a road force machine and they trashed it so bad ...

UPDATE 2: rotated tires front <-> rears, and the vibrations is similar and still there...
UPDATE 3: increased tire pressure to 33/36 to account for colder temp, it seems that the vibration is slightly less.

[Kief]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

So after few weeks of driving with my new winter kit (Nokian R2 245/55R18 on BBS SR019), I came to the conclusion that there is a slight tiny vibration felt in steering wheel and throughout the interior of the car at Hwy speeds (115km/71mph).

Initially I thought it's a balancing issue, brought the car in, they checked and said it needed one more weight in each wheel on passenger side. And the reason they missed it is because they didn't use the expensive disc with fingers, some odd concuction with a plate that has rods ... That they use on sports cars. After the re-balancing, it feels like it's the same or even a tad worse. They don't have a road force machine and they trashed it so bad ...

I have checked the pressure (32/35 psi), torque (103lb-ft) and with the re-balancing I am almost thinking either it's normal or there's high other anomaly. Anyone has similar experience or some helpful hints? Thanks.

It's such a PITA dealing with this...I know from experience.
Is the vibration at certain highway speed/range--"sweet spot?" Have you rotated the wheels to see if there is a change? You definitely should get them road force balanced. One of your wheels or the tires could be just slightly out of spec/round. Depending on the acceptable range, you may just have to live with it. I find these Ms are sensitive (or maybe it's just me) and you can pick up these tiny nuances through the wheel.

[aboulfad]

Yes, it is most noticeable at Hwy speeds (115km/71mph), around there. I thought rotating them wouldn't matter, as if there's something off with the fronts then when I rotate them to the rear then the problem would move from the front to the rear, and the vibrations will still be transmitted through the inside of the cabin instead of the steering wheel. Is my logic correct? Unless you meant have them rotate the tire 180deg on the wheel?

As far as road force, both two techs at that place said that road force is a gimmick. I don't believe them, but if I have to do it I have to seek a place that has the machine and pay... Which is not a biggie but now I have to deal with another place and more stories...

I was thinking if re-torquing them using a 3 step approach, hand tighten, then torque to 75ft-lbs, then finally torque to 103ft-lbs. I read this at tire rack that it may help.

[danniexi]

i would get a second opinion and take it to a shop to balance them again. you can always try rotating the tires to see if it cures the vibration. if all else fails maybe there is a defect with the tire itself.

[JoeFromPA]

Road force is definitely not a gimmick and I would definitely rotate front to back and re-evaluate - sometimes vibrations can be due to harmonics of the tire + specific axle (particularly the steering axle), especially when they are as modest as you are describing.

Tires require different balancing needs when they spin under pressure versus free spin with no weight on them. Road force comes closer to real world balance.

[aboulfad]

Ok thanks guys for the recommendations So rotation it is, at least it's something I can do without going to a shop. JoeFromPA do you think adjusting tire pressure would have a role in this? I am just trying to do things that require the least amount of effort and then move on ... Being lazy!

I couldn't believe how much they trashed the road force machine, ... Of course they are being defensive for not having it...

[Kief]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

Ok thanks guys for the recommendations So rotation it is, at least it's something I can do without going to a shop. JoeFromPA do you think adjusting tire pressure would have a role in this? I am just trying to do things that require the least amount of effort and then move on ... Being lazy!

I couldn't believe how much they trashed the road force machine, ... Of course they are being defensive for not having it...

Try this flow chart
That is if this damn bimmerapp ever worked lately....Google TireRack tire vibration pdf

[aboulfad]

Ok I did the rotation, and re-torqued properly, and it's the same deal. Makes me think the following about the vibration:
- it's normal because of the thread of the Nokian R2
- could it be the BBS, bcoz they are not hub centric, even w the hub ring maybe it causes slight vibration?
- all wheels are still mis-balanced and hence need to RF it!

[aboulfad]

@Kief thanks I already saw the chart many weeks ago... A bit useful. I know that rotating the tire on the wheel by 180 is another step but maybe I'll check a dealer with a Hunter machine to do the road force balancing.

[AllForTheCash]

Originally Posted by Kief

Is the vibration at certain highway speed/range--"sweet spot?"

I did notice this vibration on my car as well...just noticed it one day, but is present with both my Stock 19" and OEM 19" winter set up. Seems to happen between 2500-3500 RPMS and only felt in the steering wheel.

[aboulfad]

My vibration is speed dependent moreso than engine revolutions. However I am thinking more and more that our cars are very sensitive and the Nokians R2 are meaty... But i didn't have that with the 19" PSS, so in your case you could go back to dealer and ask them to check it as adjustments are covered for first year, it all depends how much vibration you are feeling and it's hard to evaluate. In my case it was faint but there.

[e90_2_f80]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

My vibration is speed dependent moreso than engine revolutions. However I am thinking more and more that our cars are very sensitive and the Nokians R2 are meaty... But i didn't have that with the 19" PSS, so in your case you could go back to dealer and ask them to check it as adjustments are covered for first year, it all depends how much vibration you are feeling and it's hard to evaluate. In my case it was faint but there.

Did you install the centering pin correctly in the BBS? I got mine from tirerack and the rings shipped separately (they came 3 days later)and I had to install them. Some ppl had the ring reinstalled by tirerack. If the ring is not installed the wheel might be not seated properly which can cause vibrations but usually that's more pronounced.

Btw - you are not using pacers correct? You are installed directly on the axe.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by e90_2_f80

Did you install the centering pin correctly in the BBS? ...

Yes, of course! Mine are made from nice stainless steel, and you could insert them in two different ways, the correct way is the flat side facing towards the outside of the vehicle with the clip to hold them down, see pic with wrong installation. However even if you install them wrongly, the wheel is still held in place correctly, it's just the pin will not hold the rings as securely as it won't fit snug between the grove of the wheel and the outer edge of the ring.

No I am not running spacers. Btw, if you don't have the centering hub rings, when you put the wheel on, you'll feel it right away. Thanks.

[AllForTheCash]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

My vibration is speed dependent moreso than engine revolutions. However I am thinking more and more that our cars are very sensitive and the Nokians R2 are meaty... But i didn't have that with the 19" PSS, so in your case you could go back to dealer and ask them to check it as adjustments are covered for first year, it all depends how much vibration you are feeling and it's hard to evaluate. In my case it was faint but there.

I agree its faint, but it is there. Usually as I am accelerating (6 speed) and as I come up to 6th gear and pass the 2500RPM-3500RPM I have a small vibration in the steering wheel only.

I had it both with the stock 19" PSS and now with the recommended OEM 19" 641M 8.5/9.0 winter set up with Nokian R2 255 Square. I was almost sure it was a balance issue, but when I switched to the winter set up it was still there. So maybe an alignment issue? Already checked the tire pressure. Will let the dealer check it during my next visit.

These cars are sensitive. So is the 911, The steering wheel had a "wobble" to it one day and found out my tire pressure was low, adjusted and it went it away.

I will report back once I have the dealer check it out.

[e90_2_f80]

Well it seems you tried tire pressure and rotation already.

So I would do a rebalancing. try to go to a shop that has the hunter gsp 9700. The margins of error are much smaller.

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by AllForTheCash

I agree its faint, but it is there. Usually as I am accelerating (6 speed) and as I come up to 6th gear and pass the 2500RPM-3500RPM ... I had it both with the stock 19" PSS and now with the recommended OEM 19" 641M 8.5/9.0 winter set up with Nokian R2 255 Square.

In sixth speed at that rpm, you are probably at highway speeds! Hmm so you also have an R2... Makes me wonder more and more about the R2. Was your setup road forced balanced, And what tire pressure are you running?

I don't think it's an alignment issue, those don't cause vibration, rather you feel the car/steering wheel pulling one way. Your car if new would only be badly aligned, if not done correctly to begin with, or you hit many major curb/ potholes...

[force4rmr]

This is 100% a balancing issue. You need to have your wheels/tires properly road forced balanced by a shop that knows what they're doing!

[aboulfad]

Originally Posted by force4rmr

This is 100% a balancing issue. You need to have your wheels/tires properly road forced balanced by a shop that knows what they're doing!

Although I agree it's balancing related, it's not always the case that road force balancing will solve the issue but I won't know until I try and I have been putting this last as I will have to find another installer and pay maybe $200 for a RF balance. They don't carry the hunter machine where I bought the set as most garages don't, however it seems most BMW dealers do.

[AllForTheCash]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

In sixth speed at that rpm, you are probably at highway speeds! Hmm so you also have an R2... Makes me wonder more and more about the R2.

I agree it is a balance issue, feels like it. But my concern was that it was present with my Stock 19" set up. I was hoping it would go away when I switched to my R2 set up, but it didn't. So I do not think its an R2 issue at all. I also notice when the car is colder the vibration appears worse. You can feel it in 5th and 6th going past that RPM range and getting up to speed.

The dealer mounted the R2s to the 19" rims. I swapped them on when the time came. I am not sure how they balanced the set up, but will bring it up again for re-eval when service time.

Again the vibration can be felt in the steering wheel only.

[aboulfad]

AllForTheCash , unless your dealer's equipment/technician is faulty, its unlikely that you do have two different sets unbalanced, unlikely but not improbable! It is possible there's other elements that cause steering wheel vibration aside from un-balanced tire/wheels. One thing that I tried to eliminate is the road factor, even with brand new asphalted roads, they seem to have some ripple effect that translates into some mini vibration and at the same HWY speed on different roads, I have different vibration feedback.

As far as when the car is cold, I believe these are vibrations induced from the car itself (engine/exhaust) that you should also feel in the car, try touching the door's handle (not the door opener)!

Thus said, assessing how much a steering wheel vibrates and the cause is darn so daunting but its key to helping them diagnose those issues. In my case its subtle, how about yours ?

I have found few techniques, hold the steering wheel with both hands but have your four fingers open and facing you as you drive and see if your fingers are shaking, that'd be a sign of too much vibration. another one is to put a plastic bottle with water in cup holder, and see how much ripples there is inside.

I am almost at the conclusion what i have is normal and within the norms but will keep an eye on it as winter progresses.

[AllForTheCash]

Originally Posted by aboulfad

My vibration is speed dependent moreso than engine revolutions. However I am thinking more and more that our cars are very sensitive and the Nokians R2 are meaty... But i didn't have that with the 19" PSS, so in your case you could go back to dealer and ask them to check it as adjustments are covered for first year, it all depends how much vibration you are feeling and it's hard to evaluate. In my case it was faint but there.

I also think mine is speed dependent as well through that RPM range. It only happens at the highway speeds only. But as mentioned before, when the weather is colder it seems worse. My tire Pressure is up to par, but I'll recheck for the colder climates. I'll have them rebalanced on my next visit.

Thank you for the input.