Problem with traction on 1-2, 2-3 shift (DCT)

[azndrunk74]

My current wheel/tire setup is 19x9.5 265/35/19 fronts, 19x10.5 295/30/19 rears with Michelin PS2s. Tread life is around 6/32" front, 4/32" rear if I had to guess (will check with a gauge later). Alignment settings are -1.9 front camber, -1.0 rear camber, I believe slight toe in for the front, and 0 toe rear.

I'm having an issue with traction in S4 mode, where my rear end would break loose on 1-2, or 2-3 shifts. When the rear end breaks loose the car will want to slide (I think left) until traction control kicks in to keep the car straight. It's actually pretty scary - sometimes I end up partially in the lane next to me (I don't even bother going in S5 mode).

The car is NA with test pipes, drop in air filter, GTS transmission tune, no aftermarket tune.

Do I need new subframe bushings? Perhaps my alignment is out of wack? Or do PS2's just generally suck? Anyone else experience similar issues?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[BzsBimmer]

4/32 is low
Tires cold? Too much PSI?

I have same issue with PSS when I'm romping it

[azndrunk74]

Originally Posted by BzsBimmer

4/32 is low
Tires cold? Too much PSI?

I have same issue with PSS when I'm romping it

I usually don't punch it until the tires are warmed up after driving at least a few miles. The weather has been colder lately, but I've had the issue when the weather was 10-20 degrees warmer as well. I'll check the tire pressures tonight.

[Longboarder]

Check your tire pressure. Pilot Super Sports are much better for straight line grip, particularly when cold. So when you need new tires consider PSS.

If it's really cold out, you are gonna spin no matter what at WOT.

If you want zero spin, get R888's.

[Beemdog]

Umm, any car that won't break the tires loose on a 1-2 shift is underpowered. Be thankful yours is running as the horsepower gods intended!

I have PS2s on my Viper and they behave exactly as you described, with a little side step when suddenly breaking traction under hard acceleration. Same ViscoLok limited slip diff as an M3 too. So fun.

[azndrunk74]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Check your tire pressure. Pilot Super Sports are much better for straight line grip, particularly when cold. So when you need new tires consider PSS.

If it's really cold out, you are gonna spin no matter what at WOT.

If you want zero spin, get R888's.

I'll definitely make the switch to PSS when these PS2 are done. I was worried my subframe bushings were shot but it could just be a tire issue. I'll report back on the tire pressures.

Originally Posted by Beemdog

Umm, any car that won't break the tires loose on a 1-2 shift is underpowered. Be thankful yours is running as the horsepower gods intended!

I have PS2s on my Viper and they behave exactly as you described, with a little side step when suddenly breaking traction under hard acceleration. Same ViscoLok limited slip diff as an M3 too. So fun.

lol I don't think my car is making a ton of power, esp. since it's NA - I was worried it was another issue entirely. I would like to go FI but I can't imagine what it would be like with even less traction than I currently have now. My old e46 m3 had the same issue, but it was supercharged and was making more power than my current M3. The way the e92 whips out is much more violent than my old e46

[BzsBimmer]

Originally Posted by azndrunk74

I was worried my subframe bushings were shot but it could just be a tire issue. I'll report back on the tire pressures.

I think a symptom of worn bushings would be wheel hop, not so much sliding.

[BzsBimmer]

PS2 new tread depth is 8.5/32"
4/32, see below. Taken from Discount Tire website
http://www.discounttire.com/pdf/trea...geDownload.pdf

[8600RPM]

With those mods you should not have traction issues from 2nd to 3rd or above unless you have bald tires in the cold. Sounds like something is off

[8600RPM]

Especially with all that extra weight from your large tires and wheels, you really should have zero traction issue

[azndrunk74]

Originally Posted by BzsBimmer

PS2 new tread depth is 8.5/32"
4/32, see below. Taken from Discount Tire website
http://www.discounttire.com/pdf/trea...geDownload.pdf

front tires measured 6/32", and rears measured around 5.8/32" - they weren't as bad as i thought. i suppose the rears are approaching the "caution" zone though.

i checked the tire pressures and they came in around 31 psi front and rear. i used a digital tire gauge. that seems too low doesn't it? what kind of impact would that have on traction?

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

With those mods you should not have traction issues from 2nd to 3rd or above unless you have bald tires in the cold. Sounds like something is off

Originally Posted by 8600RPM

Especially with all that extra weight from your large tires and wheels, you really should have zero traction issue

my wheels are pretty light, around 21 lbs for the fronts, and 22 lbs for the rears - noticeably lighter than the 220M I had which are 23 lbs in front, 26.5 lbs rear.

i do agree i should not have traction issues with my mods.

[617E90M3]

Car will spin, its a good thing, just have to feather with it and play with it. My car breaks all traction on 2-3 shift even with AD08's if I keep it pinned... But its also got an ESS kit

[BzsBimmer]

Originally Posted by azndrunk74

front tires measured 6/32", and rears measured around 5.8/32" - they weren't as bad as i thought. i suppose the rears are approaching the "caution" zone though.

i checked the tire pressures and they came in around 31 psi front and rear. i used a digital tire gauge. that seems too low doesn't it? what kind of impact would that have on traction?

31 is low for cold on street but is doable.
I'd go 33F and 35R.

Basically with the lower PSI, it "should" get you more usable tire width to drive on which in turn should actually give you more grip however, also depending on your wear pattern, you could be running too low pressure and cupping the inside part of your tire causing you less grip, you'd be gripping only the shoulders of the tire.

I think for the most part, your car is fine and reacting to the cooler weather. Even though it's dry outside, for the most part, the streets are fairy cold.

I would consider replacing those tires at some point and moving to PSS as they are superior to PS2's.

That's my $.02 anyway

[Longboarder]

31 is fine. But you can can lower the rears a little down to 29 to get more grip. Essentially by lowering your rear tire pressure you are lowering "oversteer" in track terms. In this case you are also gaining traction straight line. With a blower and 570 wheel, now in the winter I'm spinning more in 1st and on the 1-2 shift but it isn't that bad now that I have MRF solid subframe bushings with PSS tires. But I still need to dial down rear tire pressure a little. I no longer spin the 2-3 shift in winter and I did before the subframe bushings. But since your motor is NA, try PSS first before considering subframe bushings. Install on that is pricey.

[Zulu Saffa]

I am running P Zeros on a 6MT and I lose traction from 1-2 as well as sometimes losing traction through the rev range in 2nd. Only get a small amount of movement from 2-3rd. Love it.

[AMG_LAWL]

Maybe you're TC module is glitching out or even damaged

[M3 Number 86]

first of all why do you have zero toe in the rear? Don't you want high speed stability? You should have zero toe in the front if you want more turn in.

You talk about tread depth but what are the condition of the tires? They could be done in terms of being heat cycled if you have romped on them a lot or bought them used.

For instance, RS3 are supposed to be pretty sticky tires. Mine are definitely heat soaked. I have some tread left but just spun the tires driving out of my driveway at 5 mph aka they are just super hard and slippery.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

For instance, RS3 are supposed to be pretty sticky tires. Mine are definitely heat soaked. I have some tread left but just spun the tires driving out of my driveway at 5 mph aka they are just super hard and slippery.

I think I mentioned my RS3 issue. I couldn't get any straight line traction (spun up through 4th) and neither could MRF on their 400 wheel NA M3. Lateral grip is terrific, particularly when warm, but there isn't a worse tire for straight line grip than RS3's. No idea why.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

I think I mentioned my RS3 issue. I couldn't get any straight line traction (spun up through 4th) and neither could MRF on their 400 wheel NA M3. Lateral grip is terrific, particularly when warm, but there isn't a worse tire for straight line grip than RS3's. No idea why.

I've never really did a "launch" or hard acceleration ever on these tires, so couldn't comment. I'm also not the guy blazing out of the pits just to slam on the brakes to slow down for a corner (those are the worst) lol.

But my tires are blue from overheating. Drifting. Yes.

[azndrunk74]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

31 is fine. But you can can lower the rears a little down to 29 to get more grip. Essentially by lowering your rear tire pressure you are lowering "oversteer" in track terms. In this case you are also gaining traction straight line. With a blower and 570 wheel, now in the winter I'm spinning more in 1st and on the 1-2 shift but it isn't that bad now that I have MRF solid subframe bushings with PSS tires. But I still need to dial down rear tire pressure a little. I no longer spin the 2-3 shift in winter and I did before the subframe bushings. But since your motor is NA, try PSS first before considering subframe bushings. Install on that is pricey.

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Mine used to do just what the OP describes, for years, until I replaced the rubber oem sub-frame bushings with solid ones. In the wet it was even worse... but it kept me on my toes even with MDM on.

As others have said:

1) Reduce rear tire inflation pressures to gain mechanical grip (think ~ -4psi cold inflation reduction), but don't go crazy here because the tire loses some lateral pneumatic stiffness and effective load carrying capability when air pressure is lowered. I am at about 28psi cold on a decent calibrated digital gauge that I have access to at work AND I use Nitrogen which is less sensitive to pressure change due to ambient temperature shifts or heat from the brakes, which is why Ni is used in some forms of Pro Road Racing.

2) Replace the rear sub-frame bushings with solid ones. I went with the alexshop versions.

3) Step up to Michelin PSS (when the budget allows) for the latest gen wet and dry street grip compounds.

next step will be to go down slightly on rear tire pressures. after that I'll try michelin PSS tires. ultimately I will go with solid sub-frame bushings if i really can't manage the traction issue.

Originally Posted by Zulu Saffa

I am running P Zeros on a 6MT and I lose traction from 1-2 as well as sometimes losing traction through the rev range in 2nd. Only get a small amount of movement from 2-3rd. Love it.

that means you are shifting properly i miss having a MT - it's definitely not the same driving my wife's MT passat lol.

Originally Posted by AMG_LAWL

Maybe you're TC module is glitching out or even damaged

hope not! i haven't had any codes pop up regarding the TC module.

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

first of all why do you have zero toe in the rear? Don't you want high speed stability? You should have zero toe in the front if you want more turn in.

You talk about tread depth but what are the condition of the tires? They could be done in terms of being heat cycled if you have romped on them a lot or bought them used.

For instance, RS3 are supposed to be pretty sticky tires. Mine are definitely heat soaked. I have some tread left but just spun the tires driving out of my driveway at 5 mph aka they are just super hard and slippery.

i didn't grab my alignment sheet and was going by memory, and i'm getting old so i'm probably completely off . i think that's what the shop set it as, i need to double check.

i don't romp on my tires often and i haven't tracked with them, so i doubt they are heat soaked. i'm going to go with PSS next - never tried them so i'm hoping they will solve most of my issues.

appreciate everyone's input and insight into this issue!

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

But my tires are blue from overheating. Drifting. Yes.

Haha never heard of them turning blue that's insane. But I'm not a drifter...my car can't do that although I am going to the Thermal Club tomorrow. 5 of us get the entire track by ourselves all day

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Haha never heard of them turning blue that's insane. But I'm not a drifter...my car can't do that although I am going to the Thermal Club tomorrow. 5 of us get the entire track by ourselves all day

um where was my invite?