Rant - M3/M4 comparos vs. Porsche/C7

[Powerslide]

Anyone else here getting tired of the out-of-context comparos between the 991 or C7 on the one hand - and F8x on the other?

Seriously people - of course the 991 and C7 are going to have faster lap times - they are dedicated sports cars which are not intended to transport 4 people in relative comfort and still be pretty track-capable. If you "modified" a C7 or 991-chassis 911 to have the same sized back seats and trunks as the F8x (and the greater weight, larger wheelbase, need to use front engine and other "compromises" that necessarily would go along with that) - what do you think the results would be then...? - Yeah - no $h_t, right???!!!?

Most people on here have enough common-sense to know that because the F8x is only a little slower on the track than both of those (and faster in a straight line than the base 991's and almost as fast as the C7 stingray) - in my mind that is really a "victory" for the F8x.

I bought the F80 not only for its performance and looks - but also because I can comfortably transport 4 people with luggage over long distances whenever needed - and because it is such a great everyday driver - factors which completely took the 991 and C7 out of contention for me.

So - with F8x - you get 95% of the performance of those other 2 - with about 1000% of the practicality (and competitively priced too)!

In my mind - win for F8x unless you're single or without kids - even then - largely subjective.

I don't mind the comparisons in and of themselves - but its annoying as hell when people act disappointed that the F8x doesn't match every objective measure of performance compared to the 991 chassis 911 or C7...

[Brindle101]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Anyone else here getting tired of the out-of-context comparos between the 991 or C7 on the one hand - and F8x on the other?

Seriously people - of course the 991 and C7 are going to have faster lap times - they are dedicated sports cars which are not intended to transport 4 people in relative comfort and still be pretty track-capable. If you "modified" a C7 or 991-chassis 911 to have the same sized back seats and trunks as the F8x (and the greater weight, larger wheelbase, need to use front engine and other "compromises" that necessarily would go along with that) - what do you think the results would be then...? - Yeah - no $h_t, right???!!!?

Most people on here have enough common-sense to know that because the F8x is only a little slower on the track than both of those (and faster in a straight line than the base 991's and almost as fast as the C7 stingray) - in my mind that is really a "victory" for the F8x.

I bought the F80 not only for its performance and looks - but also because I can comfortably transport 4 people with luggage over long distances whenever needed - and because it is such a great everyday driver - factors which completely took the 991 and C7 out of contention for me.

So - with F8x - you get 95% of the performance of those other 2 - with about 1000% of the practicality (and competitively priced too)!

In my mind - win for F8x unless you're single or without kids - even then - largely subjective.

I don't mind the comparisons in and of themselves - but its annoying as hell when people act disappointed that the F8x doesn't match every objective measure of performance compared to the 991 chassis 911 or C7...

Hey, you don't like them, don't read them. Maybe we'll all just come to this website, twiddle our thumbs and that'll be more interesting. Most of the comparisons are from people who have had the opportunity to evaluate different cars, and post what they think are the differences, or the highs and lows of each. Even if somebody is disappointed that their car doesn't reach a benchmark that a competitor does, so what; they are entitled to be disappointed, angry, or happy with how their car performs.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by Brindle101

Hey, you don't like them, don't read them. Maybe we'll all just come to this website, twiddle our thumbs and that'll be more interesting. Most of the comparisons are from people who have had the opportunity to evaluate different cars, and post what they think are the differences, or the highs and lows of each. Even if somebody is disappointed that their car doesn't reach a benchmark that a competitor does, so what; they are entitled to be disappointed, angry, or happy with how their car performs.

Just to be clear - I don't mind when people objectively compare those cars - what my rant is - is when people's expectations for those cars are identical.
So I will continue to read (and enjoy) those posts for purposes of objective (and even subjective comparisons). Just wish people would put things in proper context (but that's asking a lot for any forum - let alone Bimmerpost - right)??!!?

And with Alex07M3 gone - forum experience is still a million miles better regardless!!

[FTS]

I do understand your point but not your frustration . People will compare anything to everything, because decisions are not made in a vacuum and are hardly ever just objective. Let them compare draw their own conclusions. Btw, I certainly agree with your last sentence, which is to say that this post will like be delete as with half a dozen others before

[CirrusSR22]

The M4 is not "a little slower" than a C7 on a track - It's much slower. 7 full seconds around VIR. That's where the argument falls apart IMO. Of course the M4 is more useful, but outside of a straight line, the M4 is nowhere near the performance of a C7, yet people pretend it is. They both have pros and con and are both great vehicles. Buy what fits your needs the best. Why the insecurity about it? If one needs a back seat, great. Buy the M4 and just be happy with it.

And BMW markets the M4 as a track car, so why can't we compare them? It's kind of asking for these comparisons.

[ixse]

Plus M4 is not 1000% more practical.. Just because you need 4 seats doesnt make all M4 buyers absolutely needing 4 seats. Aside from 2 rear seats. Both 991 and c7 can easily be daily driver. Very comfortable and c7 has big ass trunk space as well. Not to mention both cars get better fuel economy then M4.
But yes within M4s price range, its very well made car and tempting car to buy.

[solstice]

What's a bit disappointing, maybe is that BMW doesn't build any car that can keep up with those two. The M4 is their pinnacle of street going Motorsport. In the past I think it could hang with the 911S and the base Vette around a track.

The GTS will likely change that and that's fair against the P-car but not the Vette. However it will no longer punch above it's class.

[Revcrazy]

Outside of a straight line, there really is no comparison. Its quite lopsided in the favor of the 991 and C7. Of course the 991 is already going on its 5th model year whereas the m4 and c7 were new for 2015. Once the face lifted 991 debuts, I'd only expect the gap to get that much bigger.
While I don't think any are true competitors, the fact that the m3/4 make the power they do and BMW markets it as a track car shows you what they want people to think. Porsche markets the 911 as a daily driver GT type car. It just so happens its a tool as precise as they come.

I think to me the fact that so many people have to try and justify their purchase is what needs to end. Too many insecure people who want their car to be like X car so they try to make some kind of comparison and then a qualifying statement such as the M3/4 have usable space for 4 people. There are other 4 seater cars that will trounce anything with an M badge.

What BMW has that benefits the customer is that they lose buyers at a 6 figure price point, so they keep the prices reasonable.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by solstice

What's a bit disappointing, maybe is that BMW doesn't build any car that can keep up with those two. The M4 is their pinnacle of street going Motorsport. In the past I think it could hang with the 911S and the base Vette around a track.

The GTS will likely change that and that's fair against the P-car but not the Vette. However it will no longer punch above it's class.

The E92 M3 wasn't hanging with a C6 Corvette at the track any more than the F8X is hanging with the C7. The performance gap is pretty consistent.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by solstice

What's a bit disappointing, maybe is that BMW doesn't build any car that can keep up with those two. The M4 is their pinnacle of street going Motorsport. In the past I think it could hang with the 911S and the base Vette around a track.

That's probably the biggest part. People love BMWs and the M4 is their "fastest" product. So naturally it'll get compared with fast cars of other makes.

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by solstice

What's a bit disappointing, maybe is that BMW doesn't build any car that can keep up with those two. The M4 is their pinnacle of street going Motorsport. In the past I think it could hang with the 911S and the base Vette around a track.

The GTS will likely change that and that's fair against the P-car but not the Vette. However it will no longer punch above it's class.

The e92 m3 couldn't ever really hang with the 997S on the track either. Even the "comp pack" was easily beaten by the 997.2S on every track there are compares too.

The 991 changed the game more than any other car recently has and therefore the gap just got a bit bigger.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

The e92 m3 couldn't ever really hang with the 997S on the track either. Even the "comp pack" was easily beaten by the 997.2S on every track there are compares too.

The 991 changed the game more than any other car recently has and therefore the gap just got a bit bigger.

Another positive P-car comment from you, you are full of surprises aren't you

[Powerslide]

Wow - this just goes to show how hard it is to get your point across on this forum...

First - I never said that just because I need 4 seats that everyone else does (not sure how any of my points could even be remotely construed as such). What I instead said was that "if" you need 4 seats then the performance that the M3/M4 offer is pretty damn good for the price point. As I even stated in my original post - "if" I didn't need 4 seats - I also would have considered the 991 and C7...

And again - many of the posts here fail to acknowledge the exact point that I actually was making - which again - if it wasn't clear - was given that the M3/M4 are much more practical and useable - and given how much larger passenger/trunk space they have (and the consequent performance sacrifices that go along with that) - I still stand by my two points which are:

1) the M3/M4 come way closer to the 991 and C7 performance-wise than one would suspect given the performance sacrifices that the M3/M4 make (and that the 991 and C7 do NOT have to make); and

2) its ridiculous to judge those cars from the exact same performance expectations, given that they are targeting different needs (C7 and 991 are going after the same need - whereas M3/M4 are going after the same need as the C63, RS4/5, ATS V, RC F)....

Look at the M3/M4 and compare to the base 991 and C7 on fastestlaps.com - given how different of cars those are I think those results are way closer than one would have expected.

It's all about context is all I'm trying to say...

[Powerslide]

From Fastestlaps.com:

Lap Times (5)
Track 911 Carrera M4
Nordschleife 8:02.00 7:52.00
Hockenheim Short 1:13.10 1:12.80
Anglesey Coastal 1:17.80 1:19.20
Autocar Dry Handling Track 1:14.20 1:12.50
Autocar Wet Handling Track 1:13.80 1:25.70

Not too bad for the M4 there!!!

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by ixse

Plus M4 is not 1000% more practical.. Just because you need 4 seats doesnt make all M4 buyers absolutely needing 4 seats. Aside from 2 rear seats. Both 991 and c7 can easily be daily driver. Very comfortable and c7 has big ass trunk space as well. Not to mention both cars get better fuel economy then M4.
But yes within M4s price range, its very well made car and tempting car to buy.

right... like I said in my original post - "if" you don't need 4 seats - then you're right - the M3/M4 are not 1000% more practical.

However - "if" you do need 4 seats (notice how my terms are conditional here - not absolute) - explain to me how I'd fit my family of 4 in a C7 or a 991? In that case 1000% more practical is an understatement...

Context... that's all I'm saying...

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

There are other 4 seater cars that will trounce anything with an M badge.

You've said this many times and it's patently not true, unless you're talking about the $300k FF.

I'll never argue in favor of an M3 on the track ahead of a 911 (have owned two, the "good" ones) but the M3 makes other sedans feel leaden and has done so for many years. It's the benchmark and the reason why others have stepped their game up which benefits the consumer.

You need to have more understanding and objectivity to be taken seriously.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Just to be clear - I don't mind when people objectively compare those cars - what my rant is - is when people's expectations for those cars are identical.
So I will continue to read (and enjoy) those posts for purposes of objective (and even subjective comparisons). Just wish people would put things in proper context (but that's asking a lot for any forum - let alone Bimmerpost - right)??!!?

And with Alex07M3 gone - forum experience is still a million miles better regardless!!

In all fairness, the previous generation M3 beat the 911, 911 Turbo and the GTR in comparisons. All 'true sports cars'. It is no wonder the new M3 is also compared against those cars.

If you go to the track, the M3 routinely competes against 911s of every vintage. Hence they are competitors.

What I find interesting is despite the lack of feel, worse brakes, 4 seats, 500 lb extra weight, blah blah blah of M3s of every generation vs 'true sports cars', at the track they hold up perfectly fine vs cars that are twice the price.

It may be because the M3 has better drivers, but it certainly is interesting.

[CanAutM3]

I actually appreciate the fact that the practical M3/4 are compared to sports cars like the C7 and 991

[ASAP]

I will admit... the Porsche nut licking on this forum is extremely strong. I've never even looked at cross shopping between the two as I don't consider them remotely in a similar class. I feel most m3/m4 buyers r in the exact same boat... but hey this is a forum... where evryone is an enthusiast so a Porsche must be some sort of diamond prize no matter what... the 2 i drove were utter dump.

Chances are that if I was cross shopping, it would be against a C63 and Rs4/5.

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

In all fairness, the previous generation M3 beat the 911, 911 Turbo and the GTR in comparisons. All 'true sports cars'. It is no wonder the new M3 is also compared against those cars.

If you go to the track, the M3 routinely competes against 911s of every vintage. Hence they are competitors.

What I find interesting is despite the lack of feel, worse brakes, 4 seats, 500 lb extra weight, blah blah blah of M3s of every generation vs 'true sports cars', at the track they hold up perfectly fine vs cars that are twice the price.

It may be because the M3 has better drivers, but it certainly is interesting.

The comparo it "won" with the turbo and GTR is got owned in every performance category. When you base winning a comparo on price and back seat space it loses credibility.
They never compared the e92 to the S because it wouldn't stand a chance just like the m3 GTS could barely compete with a 10 plus year old 996 GT3 let alone any newer model. They are at least one full generation behind.
Being on the track miatas will pass Ferraris Porsches and More cars. It's very driver dependant. And there's a big difference between a guy going out in a 200k GT3 RS who doesn't want to crash and a guy in a 5k miata.
Funny though that Porsche can make a super luxury cruiser like the panamera that weighs 4600 lbs and is competitive and beats many supercars and sports cars like the m3 of some tracks.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

And there's a big difference between a guy going out in a 200k GT3 RS who doesn't want to crash and a guy in a 5k miata.

As much as I like him, I disagree with SYT_Shadow on his observations about competitiveness (and I also somewhat disagree on your view of the P-world, a little over the top )

The way I compare performance cars is look at club-level racing results (stock classes) at the tracks that I visit, specifically look at qualifying and best race lap times, stock classing rules are very close to one another. In BMWCCA club racing it takes to be in the GTS trim to compete with 911s. That is a big performance difference frankly.

At the same time, although I do look at club racing results, I never base my purchase decision on them, it is just a fun game

And as a side note, as a % of owners, there is most likely higher percentage of Cayman/911/GT3/GT3 RS owners that are willing to trash their cars than ///M owners, in my very humble opinion.

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by FTS

As much as I like him, I disagree with SYT_Shadow on his observations about competitiveness (and I also somewhat disagree on your view of the P-world, a little over the top )

The way I compare performance car is really look at club-level racing (stock classes) at the tracks that I visit, specifically look at qualifying and best race lap times, stock classing rules are very close to one another. In BMWCCA club racing it takes to be in the GTS trim to compete with 911s. That is a big performance difference frankly.

At the same time, although I do look at club racing results, I never base my purchase decision on them, it is just a fun game

I agree with you. It would take a GTS to be competitive with your every day 911.
Th GTS cant compete with anything else further up than an S model, certainly not anything with a GT badge and that does say a lot. BMWs best to me competes only with Porsches entry level stuff. That isn't over the top, it's just reality.
Even looking back at ALMS, porsche won 9 out of the 15 seasons for GT/gt2/GTc class. Bmw won 3. And these are all cars that are meant to compete based on similar specs but that doesn't mean it's fair, some are just inherently better.