135i MSpt driver just test drove M235

[Cavpilot2k]

So in about 7 months, the lease on my beloved 2012 135i Mspt 6MT is ending.

I am exploring my options, including everything from:

• buying out my lease
• getting into an M235
• A Subaru STI (but local dealer says their policy is no test drives until you have basically wrapped up the financials and are committed to buy the car - well guess what? You just ruled that car out for me, so how is that policy working out for you?
• Infinity G-37/Q-60: Nah - too soft

So, my impressions of the M235:

Aesthetics: I really like it in person so much better than in photos. If you don't like it but haven't seen it in person, you are working from a position of inadequate info - go see one. I LOVE the front end. Profile view is less gorgeous, but still pretty good. Back end is plain, but not ugly. Now, I am one of us 1-series drivers that actually likes how the 1er looks, so I am not looking for greener pastures there. Anyway, I am a black car guy, but this M235 looks damn fine in white. DAMN fine... Oddly I find myself liking the wheels that come on the Sport-optioned 228 better than the 235's wheels, but not by much.

Acceleration and handling: Goddamn it's fast! My 135 (bone stock) is no slouch, and probably as fast as I really ever need a car (though if I keep it, I'm gonna give it a tune and exhaust for shits & giggles and to add some spice to our 3-year relationship), but the M235 is faster, no question. It shocked me at how fast and hard it pulled. Accelerating onto an on-ramp, there was a hair more body roll than the 135, but it was decidedly more stable and planted. None of that bouncy bi-polar rear end like the 135 (in Massachusetts, bumpy roads are a given, and in a hard-accelerating turn, your rear is gonna dance in a 1er). The sales rep even commented during my attack of the on-ramp "finally, someone who knows how to drive a BMW - people are always braking for this ramp".

The steering: Much has been said and lamented about the steering, and while it was decidedly less "connected" than the 1er, it wasn't awful. I could live with it, and I'm sure after a month or two as a daily driver,I wouldn't even notice. It isn't a deal-breaker. The steering effect, as opposed to the feel: it was perfectly predictable and went exactly where it was pointed. I guess I would that while a little numb, it was extremely effective.

Transmission: I will begin by saying that I am one of those obnoxious die-hard MT guys. I just feel more in control and connected to a vehicle via a manual. However, I can be objective. DO NOT turn this thread into another one of those pointless MT vs AT/DCT arguments. That horse has been beaten to a pulp. So, with that being said, if any car I have ever driven would make me switch to an AT, it would be this car. It is without a doubt the finest, fastest AT I have ever tried. DCT? who needs it?!?! This AT will run circles around a lot of DCTs out there. Shifts are effectively instantaneous, or close enough as makes no difference. I was duly impressed, and enjoyed both the console shifter and the paddles (but more so the paddles). If I get one, I will probably still get a manual, just because they are more fun for me, but like I said, this one could make me switch.

Overall impressions: I was highly impressed with both the performance and the in-person looks. The increased size is definitely noticeable in the form of a roomier interior, but didn't really feel like a bigger car to me on the road. By contrast, I sat in a 435 in the showroom and it felt HUGE to me. I like the modestly updated interior looks as well as two usable cup holders as opposed to a cup holder and a phone/change holder disguised as a cup holder. It has better, more useful door pockets too. Overall, I liked a lot about the car. My only complaint would be that I just didn't feel as organically connected to the vehicle - it felt less...intimate. I suspect there are four reasons for this:

1. It was an AT where I am accustomed to the visceral link of an MT - that could be fixed by getting it in MT - that could be fixed by getting it in MT, but an AT/DCT driver would not have this issue.
2. The extra cockpit space - it just isn't as snug as the 1er. Some would find that a plus, some a minus. I'm 5'10" 160lb, so I don't take up a lot of space and I don't mind snug.
3. The car is brand new with 32 miles. My car is nicely broken in like a favorite pair of shoes. The back floorboard has an empty Dunkin cup and assorted other trash in it - it feels lived in. The new one is all pristine, so I think that is more of just that difference.
4. The electronic steering. Which while not bad, does certainly reduce that feeling of connection to the car and the road.

All-in-all, I am up in the air. I like the car a lot. It doesn't feel like my favorite pair of shoes like my 135 does, but more like a really nice pair of new shoes that I still have to get used to before I love wearing them.
And goddamn it's fast!

[gregthegr8]

I'm surprised you found it to be that much faster. I think for comparison, you should find and test drive a 135is with DCT perhaps since that may be a good midpoint between your car and the M235, or at least a good informational drive.

I test drove an M235 and found it to feel heavier and slower. You may just want to keep your car and put a PPK or dinan tune on it perhaps. I also thought the DCT was much crisper, sharper, and better than the 8AT, though it is a good and decent transmission. Just not quite in the same ballpark, though not its fault.

Overall though I had a similar impression in that I didn't feel quite as connected to the car and it felt a lot "softer" and more refined and apparently I didn't like that. I was just left bored and numb. Put a PPK and PE on a 135 and I think you might be happier.

I also don't know why, but for whatever reason I think the M235 only looks good in white and maybe silver. I test drove a black one and it just seemed "off." And like you said, the wheels on the M235 are just plain and blah which in my mind really let down the look of the car.

[Mach1er]

Thanks for the write-up! Describing your 1er as a well-loved old pair of shoes is satisfyingly accurate. Your review makes me think I should go drive one in an MT if they exist anywhere. Coming from a 128i, I view the 228i as a major step backwards. The idle is terrible on the I-4.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by gregthegr8

I'm surprised you found it to be that much faster. I think for comparison, you should find and test drive a 135is with DCT perhaps since that may be a good midpoint between your car and the M235, or at least a good informational drive.

I test drove an M235 and found it to feel heavier and slower. You may just want to keep your car and put a PPK or dinan tune on it perhaps. I also thought the DCT was much crisper, sharper, and better than the 8AT, though it is a good and decent transmission. Just not quite in the same ballpark, though not its fault.

Overall though I had a similar impression in that I didn't feel quite as connected to the car and it felt a lot "softer" and more refined and apparently I didn't like that. I was just left bored and numb. Put a PPK and PE on a 135 and I think you might be happier.
.

If I keep my 135, it will definitely get a tune (PPK, Cobb, or Dinan) and exhaust (probably the CP-E I've been eyeing for years). I am also considering the BMW PS and possibly M3 rear subframe bushings to get rid of that back-end bounciness.
The reason I may not keep my 1er is that I was rear-ended a few months ago badly enough to cause frame damage. I think structurally and mechanically it is fine after repairs, but BMW needs to cut me a deal on buyout because I don't want to be left holding the bag when a buyer down the road won't pay full value because of that scarlet letter on a carfax report.

Also, I cannot speak to the comparo between the 1er DCT and the 235 AT, as I have not tried the former. I can only say that I found the 8AT to be most impressive, especially given my previously low opinion of slushboxes.

Also, perhaps one reason I find it faster is that I feel it can put its power to the ground more effectively that my 135, given that it has better shoes than my stock runflats (even though they are the 18" summer perf tires that came with the Mspt).

[gregthegr8]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

If I keep my 135, it will definitely get a tune (PPK, Cobb, or Dinan) and exhaust (probably the CP-E I've been eyeing for years). I am also considering the BMW PS and possibly M3 rear subframe bushings to get rid of that back-end bounciness.
The reason I may not keep my 1er is that I was rear-ended a few months ago badly enough to cause frame damage. I think structurally and mechanically it is fine after repairs, but BMW needs to cut me a deal on buyout because I don't want to be left holding the bag when a buyer down the road won't pay full value because of that scarlet letter on a carfax report.

Also, I cannot speak to the comparo between the 1er DCT and the 235 AT, as I have not tried the former. I can only say that I found the 8AT to be most impressive, especially given my previously low opinion of slushboxes.

Sadly, I remember your accident photos, which always sucks. You may want to check your carfax cause sadly, I had 25k in damage on my 2008 135 and yet, a clean carfax which shocked me. If it is indeed on there and it bothers you long-term down the road, then you may be better off turning it in, let it be BMW's problem, and trying to find a good, similar used one perhaps for about the same price as your buyout? A used 135is might be good too as it'll already have the PPK2 and PE. Of course I'm biased in this.

I also recently put on the BMW PS and oh my lord what a transformation that is. I cannot recommend it enough, though it's somewhat sad we have to put a whole new suspension on to make the handle how it should have from the factory. I had contemplated the m3 subframe bushings or at least the whiteline inserts, but after putting on the PS, it feels so planted, so tight, and so great, I don't think it needs those other things.

My 2 cents. I haven't driven either car in manual though to help out on transmission questions or to know what a manual N55 with PPK or other tune feels like. Know though that you can't put a cobb tune on an N55 2012 and up I don't think. 2011 it looks like you can though.

And ah, I was going to ask if you test drove one with runflats or PSS. I made sure I test drove one with PSS cause that's what I have to make it as close to an apples to apples comparison as I could. Why a new M235 would be fitted with runflats still when the PSS are a $0 option is beyond me.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

Also, I cannot speak to the comparo between the 1er DCT and the 235 AT, as I have not tried the former. I can only say that I found the 8AT to be most impressive, especially given my previously low opinion of slushboxes.

really??? because maybe you forgot that you just said this...

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

It is without a doubt the finest, fastest AT I have ever tried. DCT? who needs it?!?! This AT will run circles around a lot of DCTs out there. Shifts are effectively instantaneous, or close enough as makes no difference.

LOL.

i've driven BOTH and i've driven several cars with the 8 speed ZF automatic....and it is definitely NOT as good as a real DCT. It's cheaper to make...and more reliable hence BMW are using it. Make no mistake...a DCT is a proper, race-bred transmission while the ZF is just a plain jane torque converted slusher dressed up as something more.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

really??? because maybe you forgot that you just said this...



LOL.

i've driven BOTH and i've driven several cars with the 8 speed ZF automatic....and it is definitely NOT as good as a real DCT. It's cheaper to make...and more reliable hence BMW are using it. Make no mistake...a DCT is a proper, race-bred transmission while the ZF is just a plain jane torque converted slusher dressed up as something more.

I refer to DCTs from other mfrs (and it is all heresay anyway, because I don't drive them, but I've heard complaints about poorly designed DCTs from some of the Japanese companies)
And note I said previously low opinion.
Regardless, I'd still go MT because I like to row my own, but that's just me. I also brew my own beer when I can buy great beer already made for similar cost. Some things I just want to do myself, even if it's less efficient.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thanks for sharing

[Esteban]

If you like the M235i, then just get it. People here will be biased towards the 135i, as I'm sure you can already tell. I drove the M235i twice. Didn't like the steering, or the size. It's too refined and my car has just the right amount of rawness. A real mean little SOB. Love the DCT. It is special and unlike other autos. Engine power felt similar and I love all the pops and crackles in my car. I like my 1er and with PPK, PE and Performance suspension it's a whole lot better than a stock 135i. My lease was up last October and I'm keeping mine.

I wouldn't keep a car that had that much damage. Get a low milage 135i or 135is. Preferably the 135is, or you'll have to add PPK and PE to the 135i to give it the same basic power as the M235i and to make it sound the same as the 135is, which, to me, is just incredible. Way better sounding than the M235i. I would definitely add the Performance suspension as well.

On a final note, I would never ask anybody what car should I buy. That is very personal and nobody knows what I like and dislike. That is totally up to the individual. With that said, I understand wanting to get other people's opinions. If you want an endorsement on the M235i, then you should probably ask the people over at 2ADDICTS as well. They're definitely biased toward the M235i and I'm sure will tell you to get one and why you should and why it's better than the 135i. Then, go make up your own mind.

[CAVU]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

really??? because maybe you forgot that you just said this...

LOL.

i've driven BOTH and i've driven several cars with the 8 speed ZF automatic....and it is definitely NOT as good as a real DCT. It's cheaper to make...and more reliable hence BMW are using it. Make no mistake...a DCT is a proper, race-bred transmission while the ZF is just a plain jane torque converted slusher dressed up as something more.

+1

I actually stopped reading the review after the "who needs a DCT" remark. Perhaps I should go back and read the rest?

[2012_135i]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

The steering: ...The steering effect, as opposed to the feel: it was perfectly predictable and went exactly where it was pointed. I guess I would that while a little numb, it was extremely effective.

I would suggest you try a test drive in the rain and include a highway sprint. I read a review in one of the major car mags (forget which one) that was very critical on the lack of road feel in wet conditions going so far as to say the driver will not be aware of the car about to plane before it happens.

[wolfe]

Does the steering ratio feel any faster/slower than on the e82?

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by RickMsport

+1

I actually stopped reading the review after the "who needs a DCT" remark. Perhaps I should go back and read the rest?

NO.

but you should definitely watch this!

[2012_135i]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

NO.

but you should definitely watch this!

Brilliant! Why go anywhere else? Makes me want to move to Burbank.

[Ed P]

Thanks for the review. I concur with much of what you say in it.

That said, I test drove the 135i, 228i, and 235i multiple times over the past couple months, in a couple cases, back-to-back.

I bought the 135i. Best overall feel, especially with the DCT. Much better than the AT in the 2-series when you're standing on it and shifting manually. When you're driving tepidly, full-auto, they feel very similar.

Also, the 135i felt like it already had a suspension upgrade, while the 2-series both felt like they didn't, quite. They were very good, just not as go-karty as the 1 (coming from a MX-5, that's what I wanted ).

Looks are very personal/subjective of course, but I also liked the 1-series interior much more than the 2-series (which reminds me of a Hyundai). Exterior is pretty much a draw for me (except for the rear, where the 1-series is better looking).

Keep in mind, the 235i has the same motor as the 135i, so consider a (very) low-miles 135i or 135is. ESP. with the DCT. You'll also save $10K+

I was patient, and found a 2013 with 3100 miles on it. I think it might be one of the last 135i ever built: it has a build date of 9/13.

Of course, the 235i is very VERY similar to the 135i/is, so obviously it's still a great car, and if the new/changed things are worth it to you, go for it.

[Overpar56]

Originally Posted by EvenEsteban

On a final note, I would never ask anybody what car should I buy. That is very personal and nobody knows what I like and dislike. That is totally up to the individual. With that said, I understand wanting to get other people's opinions. If you want an endorsement on the M235i, then you should probably ask the people over at 2ADDICTS as well. They're definitely biased toward the M235i and I'm sure will tell you to get one and why you should and why it's better than the 135i. Then, go make up your own mind.

Agree. I never comment when my wife asks me "what dress should I buy?" either.

The dealership has a manual 235 on the lot. The Estoril Blue is growing on me. The worst view on the 2 is the rear.

I think we're all going to have to recalibrate our feelings on the electric steering. I haven't driven one car that had the same feel as a hydraulic rack has, but I remember driving cars without power steering and power steering seemed different then too. The price we have to pay for CAFE standards.

[Ed P]

IEDEI, that video destroyed me.

[lastMleft]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

NO.

but you should definitely watch this!

Lol...lol...what a LAMO commercial, the lamest I've ever seen.....

[CAVU]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

NO.

but you should definitely watch this!

Damn you! WTF?!?!?! Like Jay Leno said while referring to Michael Jackson, if you're too weird for California, you've got nowhere left to go! Now post something different so I can re-flash the brain RAM consumed with those images!

I enjoyed my M235i test drive. Comparing the two cars, the primary differences were in the low-speed steering effort and feel, engine sound, and overall ride quality, and of course, crispness of shifts under aggressive throttle. I walked away thinking that I would be fairly satisfied if I ended up in an M235i after my 135is lease is up. By that time however, the M2 and RS3 will be on the market, or perhaps I'll keep the 135is.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by EvenEsteban

If you like the M235i, then just get it. People here will be biased towards the 135i, as I'm sure you can already tell. I drove the M235i twice. Didn't like the steering, or the size. It's too refined and my car has just the right amount of rawness. A real mean little SOB. Love the DCT. It is special and unlike other autos. Engine power felt similar and I love all the pops and crackles in my car. I like my 1er and with PPK, PE and Performance suspension it's a whole lot better than a stock 135i. My lease was up last October and I'm keeping mine.

I wouldn't keep a car that had that much damage. Get a low milage 135i or 135is. Preferably the 135is, or you'll have to add PPK and PE to the 135i to give it the same basic power as the M235i and to make it sound the same as the 135is, which, to me, is just incredible. Way better sounding than the M235i. I would definitely add the Performance suspension as well.

On a final note, I would never ask anybody what car should I buy. That is very personal and nobody knows what I like and dislike. That is totally up to the individual. With that said, I understand wanting to get other people's opinions. If you want an endorsement on the M235i, then you should probably ask the people over at 2ADDICTS as well. They're definitely biased toward the M235i and I'm sure will tell you to get one and why you should and why it's better than the 135i. Then, go make up your own mind.

You misunderstand. I'm not looking for advice on what to do. Just posting my observations in case anybody is interested or wants to discuss. I'll make my own decision based on my personal interests and priorities. I know that a lot of people, like myself, like a lot of things about both cars, so it is merely an open discussion comparing and contrasting the two.

If you think my generally positive review of the M235 is an endorsement, you should see what I would write about the 135! I absolutely LOVE my 135 and am utterly loathe to think about parting with it, but I have to face the possibility, considering the damage it took. It is by far and away the most fun car I have ever driven. Have I driven faster? Yes, better handling? Yes. But as a daily driver that still puts a smile on my face every time I start it up two and a half years later, it can't be beat, IMHO. One of the reasons I've kept it stock so long is so that I can add mods once the honeymoon is over to spice things up. The thing is, the honeymoon is still going strong!

So just take my post for what it is: an observation of the 1er's successor based on a short, fair-weather test drive.

Cheers!

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k

You misunderstand. I'm not looking for advice on what to do. Just posting my observations in case anybody is interested or wants to discuss. I'll make my own decision based on my personal interests and priorities. I know that a lot of people, like myself, like a lot of things about both cars, so it is merely an open discussion comparing and contrasting the two.

If you think my generally positive review of the M235 is an endorsement, you should see what I would write about the 135! I absolutely LOVE my 135 and am utterly loathe to think about parting with it, but I have to face the possibility, considering the damage it took. It is by far and away the most fun car I have ever driven. Have I driven faster? Yes, better handling? Yes. But as a daily driver that still puts a smile on my face every time I start it up two and a half years later, it can't be beat, IMHO. One of the reasons I've kept it stock so long is so that I can add mods once the honeymoon is over to spice things up. The thing is, the honeymoon is still going strong!

So just take my post for what it is: an observation of the 1er's successor based on a short, fair-weather test drive.

Cheers!

This thread sounds like of a continuation of your other thread where you asked people (in so many words) what they thought you should do, when you said, "so what say you?"

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1016500

Did you decide if your 135i has remained sound and reliable? Do you want to keep it? Then keep it. Do you like the M235i better? Then get it.

As I said before in your other thread where you asked us our opinions, dump it at the end of your lease. Buy a new (unlikely) or slightly used 135i or 135is optioned the way you want. That's my opinion. Either you agree or you don't.

[Cavpilot2k]

Originally Posted by EvenEsteban

This thread sounds like of a continuation of your other thread where you asked people (in so many words) what they thought you should do, when you said, "so what say you?"

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1016500

Did you decide if your 135i has remained sound and reliable? Do you want to keep it? Then keep it. Do you like the M235i better? Then get it.

As I said before in your other thread where you asked us our opinions, dump it at the end of your lease. Buy a new (unlikely) or slightly used 135i or 135is optioned the way you want. That's my opinion. Either you agree or you don't.

Fair enough. I see where you would make the correlation. Look, I'm not jumping on you or attacking you. Just saying you misunderstand the point of this post in particular. In this case I am just expounding upon my thoughts while exploring my options. But since you have connected the two, here are my current thoughts:
1. I am disinclined to keep my 135 due to the damage, nuless BMW Financial is willing to cut me a nice break on the buyout price.
2. That leads me to one of two choices (assuming they won't cut me a worthy deal): get another 135 (some have suggested a 1M, which is what I wanted in the first place, but they simply weren't available or a 135is, of which fewer were made than the 1M, so that is equally unlikely), or get an M235 (anything bigger, like the (to me) colossal 435 is out of the question).
3. If I can find a 135 that fits my requirements (6MT, Mspt, preferably premium pkg, preferably black) at a reasonable price, I will get it. If not...
4. I look at the M235, hence the test drive.
5. But if I keep my (or buy another) 135, I can see what the M2 has to offer...

I like the M235, but I think the 135 is more raw, and the black sheep of the bunch. I don't like following the crowd, and I have always loved the fact that the 1er is downplayed as the "entry-level" BMW or the "baby Bimmer", because those opinions are formed out of ignorance. The 135 (and in it's own way, the 128) provides the most raw, visceral, pure driving experience BMW offers at the moment (IMHO). It is pure, in a driver's sense, in ways that the rest of the stable are not. I don't care about badges. I would love this car if it had a Hyundai badge on it. I care about pure driving experience.
That said, the world is moving on. Like the MT I am so fond of, small, purist performance coupes with mechanical driving linkages (steering, etc) are becoming the rarity and we have to face reality. That is why I am considering the M235, much to the chagrin of fellow 1er enthusiasts.
I love that the (non)cognoscenti think the 1er is an inferior form of car. let them have their overly-processed driving experiences and their overly-refined cars. I want raw, I want visceral, I want the road less driven.

That said, I also want a solid gold toilet. Some things just aren't in the cards. So I will explore all (reasonable) options.

Oh, BTW, the other thing that is appealing about a new car (M235) is that I will be in Germany for 3 weeks next April, and a ED sounds wonderful.