How does timing work for open trackdays?

[s4one]

I usually participate in HPDE with an organization but plan on attending an open trackday.

What are timing options? Can I rent a transponder or will I need to buy one?

Thanks,

[okusa]

Originally Posted by s4one

I usually participate in HPDE with an organization but plan on attending an open trackday.

What are timing options? Can I rent a transponder or will I need to buy one?

Thanks,

You will need Harry's Laptimer or an AIM.

[jphughan]

You need to have all of the equipment in your own car, so either Harry's Lap Timer plus a smartphone (and other accessories if desired) or a standalone system like one of the TraqMate offerings. I don't know of any tracks that do the timing for you, probably because then people with insurance policies that remain in effect for non-timed, non-competitive events would have a harder time getting coverage for a claim even if they didn't use the transponder. And in any case, local datalogging gives you much more information that can help you improve your times, such as friction circles and GPS recordings showing different lines you took on different laps and your speeds in those segments so you can see which line is faster. And with an OBD accessory, you can also get RPMs, throttle and maybe brake position, etc.

All that said, I've been doing HPDEs for 3 years and even though I have the BMW Apps option and thus access to the awesome M Laptimer app, I've never used it. I can feel when I'm faster without needing a timer, I have the type of insurance policy mentioned above, and frankly timing yourself changes the decisions you make out on track, and not for the better -- which is undoubtedly why the few insurance policies that cover HPDEs are written the way they are. The Nurburgring police once said in an interview that 80% of the wrecks they salvage out there have a timing device running in them.

At the end of the day, I'm out there to enjoy myself and I want to drive my car home intact more than I want an extra tenth of a second per lap. I haven't needed a timer to continue improving; I've found that checking my speedo at consistent points on track gives me a great sense of whether a new line I'm trying is better or worse if the difference isn't completely obvious. Asking an instructor to drive your car around the track can be very educational as well, not to mention staving off the "I would be so much faster with this mod" syndrome.

[1MOREMOD]

^^^may want to use tach reading not speedo as an idicator if you are improving speed.

[s4one]

Ya laptimes can certainly affect the way one drives and how aggressive one is. When I tracked my motorcycle before, I never used a laptimer and I was able to keep up with the advanced group.

With that said, It would be nice to see if I am progressing though. Another way to do it is to run the timer but check it at the end of the day but this means I still need a timer in my car.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

^^^may want to use tach reading not speedo as an idicator if you are improving speed.

I check there too, but on some tracks like CotA I'm also experimenting with whether it's worth the time and complexity of an extra downshift on some corner entries to gain 2 seconds or less of extra power on corner exit rather than just staying one gear higher through the corner. One of the few situations in which I wish I had DCT.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s4one

Ya laptimes can certainly affect the way one drives and how aggressive one is. When I tracked my motorcycle before, I never used a laptimer and I was able to keep up with the advanced group.

With that said, It would be nice to see if I am progressing though. Another way to do it is to run the timer but check it at the end of the day but this means I still need a timer in my car.

Again, I feel that you can clearly tell you're improving without looking at lap times. Obviously as you get better, the improvements will become smaller and thus less detectable without a timer, but it depends on whether you've reached that point.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that timing yourself and waiting to check later will sidestep the change in decision making. You'll still know you're turning in lap times somewhere. And in fact I would argue that that solution is the worst of both worlds because you have the risk of overaggressiveness AND lack of immediate feedback and the potential for improvement that that provides. Most people I see getting useful information from timing will review their data after each session because they went out that session knowing that on a certain lap number they would try a certain thing, so afterward they can match their various strategies to the respective resulting lap times. Usually they're also looking at telemetry though, not just times. In order to get useful information just out of times, you need to be able to drive extremely consistently so that you can be confident that some adjustment you made was responsible for the time difference you observed, as opposed to some other unintentional change elsewhere in the lap.

[mid-corner fun]

1. Rent a transponder from your club (not track), if offered. Lap time only

2. Buy an app on your phone (Harry's Laptimer/Trackmaster) with optional GPS transceiver. Lap time and rudimentary data analysis

3. Buy a dedicated track timing solution (traqmate/Aim etc) to really find out how to improve.


Suffice to say that you need to check with the clubs you run with, whether they allow any of these solutions in your specific run groups

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I check there too, but on some tracks like CotA I'm also experimenting with whether it's worth the time and complexity of an extra downshift on some corner entries to gain 2 seconds or less of extra power on corner exit rather than just staying one gear higher through the corner. One of the few situations in which I wish I had DCT.

Yeah I toy with this also. Typically I'm faster saving the shift and just going to power earlier since lower in rpm range.

[s4one]

Thanks, even with timing and I usually pretty consistent when I do a 5-6 lap session. I am mostly within seconds of each laptime given that all parts and tires are working. Not referring to when tire slips and gets greasy, then that session is done.

Originally Posted by jphughan

Again, I feel that you can clearly tell you're improving without looking at lap times. Obviously as you get better, the improvements will become smaller and thus less detectable without a timer, but it depends on whether you've reached that point.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that timing yourself and waiting to check later will sidestep the change in decision making. You'll still know you're turning in lap times somewhere. And in fact I would argue that that solution is the worst of both worlds because you have the risk of overaggressiveness AND lack of immediate feedback and the potential for improvement that that provides. Most people I see getting useful information from timing will review their data after each session because they went out that session knowing that on a certain lap number they would try a certain thing, so afterward they can match their various strategies to the respective resulting lap times. Usually they're also looking at telemetry though, not just times. In order to get useful information just out of times, you need to be able to drive extremely consistently so that you can be confident that some adjustment you made was responsible for the time difference you observed, as opposed to some other unintentional change elsewhere in the lap.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s4one

Thanks, even with timing and I usually pretty consistent when I do a 5-6 lap session. I am mostly within seconds of each laptime given that all parts and tires are working. Not referring to when tire slips and gets greasy, then that session is done.

If your lap times are seconds (plural) apart, that's not considered very consistent. Barring issues on the track like running into traffic, your lap times should vary by no more than a few tenths if you want to use just lap time data to determine whether your adjustments are for the better or worse, otherwise the natural variability in your lap times will make it impossible to determine the true effect of the change you're experimenting with. But if you just want to make sure your times continue to drop (without trying to figure out why they're dropping or how to make them drop further), then I suppose variability doesn't matter as long as the trend is downward.

[gan1hck]

RaceChrono ...and now RaceChronoPro for android with a BlueTooth GPS receiver.

[s4one]

Originally Posted by gan1hck

RaceChrono ...and not RacChronoPro for android with a BlueTooth GPS receiver.

I keep reading about a bluetooth gps receiver? I thought I could use the harrys laptimer and not need any other equipment? Do I still need a receiver if I use my phone?

Thanks

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by s4one

I keep reading about a bluetooth gps receiver? I thought I could use the harrys laptimer and not need any other equipment? Do I still need a receiver if I use my phone?

Thanks

external gps receiver allows more frequent updates.. 5 to 10 hz versus 1 hz with internal receivers.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s4one

I keep reading about a bluetooth gps receiver? I thought I could use the harrys laptimer and not need any other equipment? Do I still need a receiver if I use my phone?

Thanks

For a while the typical setup was a WiFi GPS receiver and a BT OBD datalogger if desired because iOS only supports "certified" GPS receivers over BT (and even then only recently) whereas any GPS receiver will work over WiFi. However, it seems that the recommendation is now to go BT for both GPS and WiFi if you want faster OBD or BT if you need to keep WiFi available for something else (e.g. GoPro). Note that typically only one device can be connected via WiFi at a time because they generally work by acting as an access point you have to connect your phone to. See here: http://www.gps-laptimer.de/Compatibility.html

But of course the iPhone has GPS too, so an external receiver isn't required; it's just higher resolution as the person above me said.

[s4one]

Originally Posted by jphughan

The typical setup is a WiFi GPS receiver and a BT OBD datalogger if desired. The reason is that iOS only supports "certified" GPS receivers over BT (and even then only recently) whereas it allows any GPS receiver will work over WiFi. See here: http://www.gps-laptimer.de/Compatibility.html

But of course the iPhone has GPS too, so an external receiver isn't required; it's just higher resolution as the person above me said.

Okay great, I have a nexus 5 Android so I assume it works as well.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s4one

Okay great, I have a nexus 5 Android so I assume it works as well.

Then you want this page: http://www.gps-laptimer.de/Compatibility_Android.html

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by s4one

Okay great, I have a nexus 5 Android so I assume it works as well.

I also have an android....and Harry's Lap timer seems to not work as well....seems more suited for iOS.

Check out RaceChrono.....Of the 3 different timing apps that I use, RaceChrono is IMO the easiest to use.

The Pro Version does everything that Harry'sLT does with a simpler interface.

It supports a BlueTooth GPS interface.

[s4one]

Originally Posted by gan1hck

I also have an android....and Harry's Lap timer seems to not work as well....seems more suited for iOS.

Check out RaceChrono.....Of the 3 different timing apps that I use, RaceChrono is IMO the easiest to use.

The Pro Version does everything that Harry'sLT does with a simpler interface.

It supports a BlueTooth GPS interface.

I can use the RaceChrono app without a BT GPS interface?

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by s4one

I can use the RaceChrono app without a BT GPS interface?

yes

[s4one]

Sweet! thanks, ill give that a try

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by s4one

Sweet! thanks, ill give that a try

let me know what you think of the app.