First Drive by a racing instructor

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck

If it only felt "equivalent" to the 335i's steering then that is a problem, as the 335i's steering felt generic to me.

I thought the M3 had a much quicker ratio?

I guess I will find out tomorrow when I test drive.
Thanks for your impressions!

Hans,

I am especially looking forward to your thoughts after your test pilot. Owning a GT3 will give you a great reference point from which to judge the M3's true capabilities. Lay the hammer down as much as you dare and take the long and twisty route.

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Revin9k

Everytime i read these comparisons i cant help but think that all these V2 335's have voided their warranties.

And no one knows whether they are going to blow up at 50k miles....there have already been cases of 5th and 6th cyliner overheat issues in our 335s

If you're going to compare a moded 335 to a stock M3...then might as well compare a turbo civic hatch along as well..cause its probably faster than both.

SPOKEN FOR THE TRUTH.
Listen at the end of the day I love my e92335 and I have been in a modded one, but after driving an M3 (which probably didn't even have its full power---see the posts about break-in service) I just can't understand these comparisons. At the end of the day I love my e92 335 but it ain't no M, it ain't even an e46 M3, it may be faster but straight-line speed ain't everything.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by lucid

Nonsense. Track usage while the machine is operated within its specified operational range does NOT void warranty. I double checked this at my dealership with someone other than my CA today after finalizing my deal. He even said I could come back for rotor/pad replacements after I wear them out on the track.

This is a machine with clear operational specifications. If you don't overrev it, drive it while any warning messages are on such as coolant temperature etc, they cannot and will not object to track driving.

But if you are the kind of idiot who drops the clutch from 8000 rpms and does burn outs all day long, remove the rev limiter and rev it up to 9000-9500 rpms to see what happens, you can't be helped; those will most likely be picked up from the ECU logs if something goes wrong. However, that kind of abuse has nothing to do with track driving.

Lucid,

Thanks for clearing this up. There has been a lot of speculation regarding this.

[Keto]

Originally Posted by sajakh

If the slightly modded 335i is "almost" as good as the M3 on the road and the M3 "blows away" the modded M3 on the track, how does the warranty argument hold water when BMWNA states explicitly that track use voids the warranty??

That's why at a Performance Center Delivery, you use BMW's cars, because if you used your own, you'd void the warranty right there....

/sarcasm

Who makes up this shit?

[e46e92love]

Originally Posted by Just_me

For me its not about being the fastest in straightline, its all about satisfaction. M3 moved my feelings better than 335i did.
If money is no problem, I know what I would spend my money on.

+1

[sayemthree]

curoius....who do you instruct racing for? like in a full time job?

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

It doesn't matter. You don't have to remove the Dinan software. If they determined the software caused it, Dinan will have to pay for the repair. How smoothly does that go, who knows. You'll hear dozens of stories saying everything gets taken care of, but always that will be overshadowed by the guy that comes out and tells his horror story (which you are always getting just one side of the story). That is the point of getting Dinan, not having to worry about hiding it from the dealer.

I know Dinan has the warranty - I was referring to the OP with the Vishnu.

[ersin]

All this talk of my 335 > your M3 or my M3 > your 335 reminds me of the Democrats.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

Lucid,

Thanks for clearing this up. There has been a lot of speculation regarding this.

Hi Ruff. Long time no see. How's it going?

Unless the finance manager was blatantly lying to me while looking me in the eye after having processed my check for the sale--meaning, he really did not have any motive to lie since the sale was over--we don't have an issue here with M3 warranties being voided at the track. He even pointed me toward a dealership employee who was seriously involved in BMW's ALMS team a few years back for more tracking info. Actually, other members on the forum have gotten the exact same response from their dealers on this. Imagine what would happen to BMW's reputation if they kept on advertising a "race-bred product that came to life on the track" (can't remember the exact marketing rhetoric, but as we all know, it is something close to that) only to say that it can't be taken on a track (and therefore, effectively, should be stored in a refrigerator at all times)?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Keto

That's why at a Performance Center Delivery, you use BMW's cars, because if you used your own, you'd void the warranty right there....

Originally Posted by Keto

Who makes up this shit?

Who do you think?

[scollins]

Originally Posted by ersin

All this talk of my 335 > your M3 or my M3 > your 335 reminds me of the Democrats.

Well, us 335i owners have an inferiority complex, and the M3 owners have a superiority complex, so between the two of us the fireworks are always going to be better than the 4th of July!



Well, until some jackass comes in here and starts spouting off about the Audi S4/RS4, then we'll all pounce on his ass together. Once that's done, we'll go back and forth between us again!

[Ronin13]

Originally Posted by scollins

Well, us 335i owners have an inferiority complex, and the M3 owners have a superiority complex, so between the two of us the fireworks are always going to be better than the 4th of July!



Well, until some jackass comes in here and starts spouting off about the Audi S4/RS4, then we'll all pounce on his ass together. Once that's done, we'll go back and forth between us again!

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by lucid

Hi Ruff. Long time no see. How's it going?

Unless the finance manager was blatantly lying to me while looking me in the eye after having processed my check for the sale--meaning, he really did not have any motive to lie since the sale was over--we don't have an issue here with M3 warranties being voided at the track. He even pointed me toward a dealership employee who was seriously involved in BMW's ALMS team a few years back for more tracking info. Actually, other members on the forum have gotten the exact same response from their dealers on this. Imagine what would happen to BMW's reputation if they kept on advertising a "race-bred product that came to life on the track" (can't remember the exact marketing rhetoric, but as we all know, it is something close to that) only to say that it can't be taken on a track (and therefore, effectively, should be stored in a refrigerator at all times)?

Why does everyone care about the warranty when the insurance is no good at the track? I'd think there is a lot better chance that you'd wreck the car than that it would just break. It needn't be your fault, I little oil or some wet leaves or gravel at the wrong spot... I guess everyone that takes their car to the track is an omnipotent pro?

[ersin]

Originally Posted by scollins

Well, us 335i owners have an inferiority complex, and the M3 owners have a superiority complex, so between the two of us the fireworks are always going to be better than the 4th of July!



Well, until some jackass comes in here and starts spouting off about the Audi S4/RS4, then we'll all pounce on his ass together. Once that's done, we'll go back and forth between us again!

Ha, just wait until those smug GT-R (wannabes -- we'll see how many actually get one) proponents start spouting off.

[oneginee]

"The 335i looks like a chick car next to the M3 -" macho comment but true

I testdrove both although I have zero interest in a regular 3 series.
The 335i's salesman was actually a confirmed track racer and he demonstrated his skills with me in the passenger seat. He squeaked the tires rev'ed the engine up but I could not help but be reminded of the thin annoyingly high pitched single frequency note of these leaf blowers they use for lawn maintenance. No matter how much he tried to push it it unmistankenly felt like a 3 series which it is not an M car. I drove it too. So I get 531 ft/lbs of torque from my SL55 AMG (but I drove my old S4 that day) the 335i torque was not going to do much to impress me. A regular car except for a turbocharged engine.

I testdrove the M3 and I don't understand how people can compare. Walking to the M3 and seating in it already feels like being in a different country than the 335i. Engine sound when revv'ed this time reminded me of a chainsaw about to bring down some big old tree. Road sensation are very different, the M3 feels much wider on the road and it immediately was intoxicating and fun to drive. The 335i was bland just a normal car with some extra torque, if this was 3 centuries ago the 335i would be a mondaine horse carriage with an extra row of lean fast horses.
but the M3 would be like ben hur's chariot in the coliseum pulled by pure bread horses running like hell. There is satisfaction in the M3 that is not in the 335i

There are plenty of cheesy tuned cars: civics, toyota supras, subaru that will even outpower a 800 HP nascar. I don't really care
A mod 335i is just tacky to me - Personal view -

At the end an M3 is an M3 and a 335i modified or not is a 3 series.
Buy the 335i for the wife and get yourself an M3.

[cosmos515]

So I finally got to drive the M3 (sedan), too. I have been a race instructor for 5 years, and I time trial competitively in a tracked-out E36 M3 (thus maybe I know what I am talking about).

WHAHAHA!!

What the fawk do you know, you instruct, do you BMW/CCA race at least? You Time Trial....whwhahahah, Wow, cool, that’s real racing and all when your nearest competition is an orange cone.

If you were in CR, or Grand Am or at least SCCA than I would have read your post.

I am only saying this because you put yourself out there. So take it as personally as you want.

When it comes down to it, the M3 is an M3, the most iconic letter and number in automotive history and the 335 will still be lower on the totem pole.

And if you are going to post back asking my credentials, than you really don’t have a valid response.

Next time don’t go trying to fluff your jock on a public forum.

[sayemthree]

instructing at BMW CCA does not qualify one as a racing instructor. I too want to know where he teaches racing and for whom.

nor does tracking a M3 void your warranty. racing, yes, if they find out. abuse, yes of they can prove it. times trials, tecnically yes , but the dealer will never know.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by cosmos515

WHAHAHA!!

What the fawk do you know, you instruct, do you BMW/CCA race at least? You Time Trial....whwhahahah, Wow, cool, that’s real racing and all when your nearest competition is an orange cone.

If you were in CR, or Grand Am or at least SCCA than I would have read your post.

I am only saying this because you put yourself out there. So take it as personally as you want.

When it comes down to it, the M3 is an M3, the most iconic letter and number in automotive history and the 335 will still be lower on the totem pole.

And if you are going to post back asking my credentials, than you really don’t have a valid response.

Next time don’t go trying to fluff your jock on a public forum.

I wanted to put that in context because a lot of people do not know how to drive, yet review a car like it means something. I will put my driving skills up against anyone on this forum. Time trial is on the same road course where the racers race (Infinion, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill) and is all about getting the most out of the car, knowing a car's handling at the very limit, understanding how to balance traction front and rear, etc. It is 100% about driving while racing has a large component of strategy and blocking - both of which have nothing to do with driving per se.

Everyone comes back that the 335i does not feel like the M3, is not an M3, whatever. Half of you are brain washed by the M logo. The fact is that the price premium is huge, and unless you are going to track the car regularly to extract that extra value of the car I am hesitant to say it is worth it. Even on the track either the 335i or M3 are just too heavy to be real track machines. They will melt rotors, pads, and tires in a hurry because of how much they weigh.

It used to be that anyone who wanted a 3 series and real performance had to spring for the M3, which cost around $10k more than the 3 series (E36 325i, E36 330i, etc.). The crazy amount of extra performance easily justified the price premium. The M would have a lot more HP, handling, etc. With the E90/92we have a unique situation where in straight line speed the "regular" 3-series with a very simple, inexpensive, and reversible mod can match an M3 in straight-line speed and destroy it in every-day torque at any "normal" RPM. In terms of handling, there is no doubt the M3 has the edge, but given that the basic chassis of both is similar (yes the M has more aluminum, a wider track, etc), they will not be that far apart (expecially with the same tire).
If your primary focus is the track I think the M3 is the way to go. Then again, if your primary focus is the track then an Exige S or Z06 is a much better way to go for enjoyment and speed. But for every day driving the M3 sucks gas, has less instantaneous torque (plenty, though, if you downshift), still has single-piston brakes, and feels . . . a lot like a normal 3 series.

What you all have to realize is that I do love the M3, but justifying the price difference is what is a challenge. It moved its way into some rare company and I am not sure it is worth it given how much I enjoy driving the 335i V2. It is amazing how defensive everyone is. I counter back, how much of a price premium is the M3 worth to you? $25K? $30K. It does, after all, come down to money. And anyone who comes flaming back better have at least driven a tuned 335i on a back road before they make claims about it being soft and completely difference than an M3.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

I wanted to put that in context because a lot of people do not know how to drive, yet review a car like it means something. I will put my driving skills up against anyone on this forum.
...

Don't let anyone bait you and shoot for sensitive spots. I don't doubt your driving skills at all and do agree you would probably whip 98/100 on the forum.

That being said I will still continue to more or less disagree with you on the 335i. Although I have not driven a modded 335i nor one on a twisty back road, I still do feel it is a bit soft, comfort oriented, lacks excitement, feel and the fun factor.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Don't let anyone bait you and shoot for sensitive spots. I don't doubt your driving skills at all and do agree you would probably whip 98/100 on the forum.

That being said I will still continue to more or less disagree with you on the 335i. Although I have not driven a modded 335i nor one on a twisty back road, I still do feel it is a bit soft, comfort oriented, lacks excitement, feel and the fun factor.

Funny thing is when you are just cruising on the highway the 335i may give the impression that it lacks excitement, but, somehow, when you hit a back road, it really livens up. The steering has excellent feel, you can balance it with throttle or a bit of trail braking, and the classic inline six (with just a hint of turbo blow off) sounds great anywhere on the tach. The brakes are strong and progressive on back roads. They faded a bit on The Ring though (as do any stock pads).

Again, the M3 was better, but was it $20K better. That is my focus -additional cost compared to additional benefit.

I really should just drive the 335i for a couple years and then get the car I REALLY want a (used) 997 GT3

[kitw]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

If your primary focus is the track I think the M3 is the way to go. Then again, if your primary focus is the track then an Exige S or Z06 is a much better way to go for enjoyment and speed.

I'd say that neither the 335i nor the M3 are track cars... not even close. 3704 lbs and single piston calipers do not a track car make. My old 3200 lbs Z4 M was too heavy for the track and I can't imagine 500lbs would do anything to make that better. If I wanted to run a production car at the track in as close to showroom trim as I can, the Z06, Elise/Exige or quite a few Porsches would be a better track car than the M3. Would the M3 be faster around the track than my old car? Maybe. Will it be as connected to the driver? Probably not.

Having owned 2/3 previous generations of the M3, I can appreciate the e90. It's a really beautiful car, just as the M3 has always been (and I owned the definitely ugly ducking e36 M3.) It'll make a great car for carving the twisties, but it'll never be a purpose built track car, anyone saying differently is fooling themselves. BMW has to work within the confines of the 3 series chassis, which has gotten bigger and more luxurious with market demand.

I LOVED the exhaust note of the e90 M3. It sounds great when you dip into the throttle... the big problem with the car is that it has a powerband like an S2000. You have to rev the car to make it pull hard. I think the RS4, IS-F, and probably the C63 (haven't driven the latter) feel ballsier in the low end. the M3 does scream at the top end, like they always have. However, anyone who thinks that these are the end all of straightline are fooling themselves, even a 911 Carrera S is just as fast in car bowling. (1/4 mile) the car is not slow, but it's definitely not something that is going to make any car guy say, "whoa" especially those used to the straightline performance of MB's upper end AMG products.

the M3 does handle well... for a 3704 lbs car. I was surprised to hear it was as heavy as it was. It's no Miata/S2000/911/Boxster/Cayman. It has a much higher polar moment of inertia and never feels as in control as the aforementioned cars.

I really think there are a lot of you that need some perspective. Yes, it's a great car. Compare the M3 with the Audi R8, and performance wise, and value per dollar, the M3 comes out leagues ahead. Yet, compare the M3 with a 911, and you're left with 700 lbs of Bigger Car. Yes it has a great exhaust note... but have you really spent some time over at the competition? The C63's exhaust notes makes the M3 sound like a voice cracking freshmen track star, after he got kicked in the nuts.

Honestly, I'd love an M3, shortcomings and all, I just wouldn't consider it to be the fastest or best handling car out there, given it's price and it's competition. Would I take it over my 335i? Probably, if there was a smaller price difference... a 335i at invoice made too much sense, vs a $70k M3. Am I going to buy one? Probably not, at least until they get cheaper.

The 335i hatred here on this board is pretty sad, though. The M3 is not an F430 as much as you want it to be. It sounds better and it handles better than a 335i out of the box. For $70k, I could have bought my 335i + a used 05 Elise. A lot of you seem to forget that the 335i and the M3 share a chassis. They are different cars, but not so different that I couldn't bolt an M3 suspension and rear differential onto my car and have a very similar experience.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by M3Kevin

I drove a 335i before driving the M3. all I have to say is 335i =

M3 totally different beasty.

you drove but he raced, probably thats why his view is such?

thanks for the write up, E36.