[sdhotwn]

Curious on any 335i or 328i's that have been run. Especially with DHP. Curious if an autocross alignment and good tires makes them fun if not competitive. Don't plan to autox mine this year other than maybe a fun run later in the season. But could play with it some in future years when I'm not racing something else.

[nicknaz]

It will definitely be fun even in stock form with stock tires.

[jetbill]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Curious on any 335i or 328i's that have been run. Especially with DHP. Curious if an autocross alignment and good tires makes them fun if not competitive. Don't plan to autox mine this year other than maybe a fun run later in the season. But could play with it some in future years when I'm not racing something else.

Great question, interesting how adaptive suspension software (Dinan Shockware) and an optional factory LSD would fit into running a stock class (or not). I would see these as being a huge advantage.

In relation to my older E90 at the autocross the F30 has a longer wheelbase and is a tad wider. I'm still trying to get the "new" car dialed in.

Dialing in a bit more front end grip at 2.5 degrees of front camber helps but I don't think that much camber is allowed in a stock class.

Up to 2.00 degrees camber is allowed in one of the clubs I run with and still considered stock, SCCA is likely different (which I think a few others may speak too).

I would be interested to hear some feedback from those who have had good success with the F3X platform at the autocross in stock or modified classes and which changes or modifications some can see as being or not being advantageous.

I can say any more power than MPPK will not be advantageous unless your running an LSD with R-comps but more preferably slicks (and by then you might be "outclassed")

[sdhotwn]

I think with the lsd being a port install option starting may 8th that it should be legal. Word on the shockware is no currently, but some consideration being given to ECU flashes that do not affect the engine. The shocks may be on their own ECU which may also help.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

I think with the lsd being a port install option starting may 8th that it should be legal. Word on the shockware is no currently, but some consideration being given to ECU flashes that do not affect the engine. The shocks may be on their own ECU which may also help.

I believe the adaptive shocks do have their own ECU... either way, I would think "shockware" could still be considered stock; same hardware, just modifying the damping curves a little ; )
Come to think of it, pretty much everything I've done to my car could still be within the realm of "stock"... I've got OEM camber bearings, M Performance PPK, exhaust, LSD, splitter/diffuser, and then shockware tuning. The only aftermarket performance parts are springs and wheels - both of which are ok in stock class, right?

[sdhotwn]

Springs aren't okay in stock. Camber bearings are also questionable. The rules more or less are written that if it is not explicitly stated to be legal than it is not. So since shock reprogramming is not specifically listed it is also questionable in SCCA. That said, at the local level it is usually not an issue.

[DVC]

Bummer about springs, but I guess that makes sense. OEM camber bearing should definitely be ok though - these are BMW parts intended to be used if there are issues getting the car aligned (e.g. after an accident)

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by DVC

Bummer about springs, but I guess that makes sense. OEM camber bearing should definitely be ok though - these are BMW parts intended to be used if there are issues getting the car aligned (e.g. after an accident)

It used to not be the case, but camber bolts are allowed with some restrictions. I'd have to read the rule again, but factory offered wasn't enough under some of the rules.

[utenigma]

For SCCA Solo Stock the camber bearings should be allowed

Suspension Adjustment
The Street category suspension adjustment allowances do not allow
non-factory-authorized use of eccentric or smaller bolts. Factory
authorized crash repair methods may only be applied to the extent
needed to restore the suspension to within it specified range of adjustment.
The crash repair methods referred to would include such
methods as frame, unibody or suspension component straightening
(bending) or unlimited grinding of attachment holes.

Reason it would be allowed is this - assuming your car is perfect front camber (-0.5 deg) the crash bolt adds 0.5 neg camber - the factory tolerances are within 0.5 degrees to either side so the camber correction bearing is legal as it leaves the car within factory spec + tolerance.

The Dinan springs aren't legal, but the MPerf port installed springs are, as are all other MPerf parts including the LSD

12.4 STANDARD PART
An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered
with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered
through a dealer in the United States. Port-installed options provided by
the manufacturer are considered to be the same as those installed on
the factory production line. Dealer-installed options or deletions (except
as required by factory directives), no matter how common or what their
origin, are not included in this definition. This definition does not allow
the updating or backdating of parts.

[USC2000]

Port installed options are only allowed if you can also have it installed on the factory production line. In the case of the LSD I don't think that's a factory option, only port option and therefor not allowed.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by USC2000

Port installed options are only allowed if you can also have it installed on the factory production line...

That's not how it reads to me.

Port-installed options provided by the manufacturer are considered to be the same as those installed on the factory production line.

Unless there's additional verbiage elsewhere in the rulebook stating what you say above; it's not implied in the quoted text.

[stevehecht]

I have Shockware on a 328d. How do you think that car would do in autoX? Is the diesel an advantage or a disadvantage? I would guess it's the former.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by USC2000

Port installed options are only allowed if you can also have it installed on the factory production line. In the case of the LSD I don't think that's a factory option, only port option and therefor not allowed.

I discussed this with a few guys in my region that are pretty good with the rules at the National level, and they all felt that given the release letter for the LSD in may that it qualifies as legal due to the port option for it.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I have Shockware on a 328d. How do you think that car would do in autoX? Is the diesel an advantage or a disadvantage? I would guess it's the former.

I was surprised to see my post in this thread, but I'll answer my own question anyway. I did an ADSS event a few days after writing this post and my 328d w/Shockware did very well. I kept the 8AT in 3rd the whole time and had a great time on the figure 8 and the mini autoX at the end of the day. I thought my 245/40/r19 BS Potenza S-04 Pole Position did fairly well, but I'm sure the PSS would have been better. I bought the S-04s as a more affordable compromise because I only attend a few driving events a year.

I was surprised and disappointed to experience as much understeer as I did. I hope to improve the car's performance (and decrease understeer) for next season by having the H&R RSB installed. At that point it probably would make sense to upgrade to the PSS to match my upgraded suspension. Can't wait!

[Forgiven]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I was surprised to see my post in this thread, but I'll answer my own question anyway. I did an ADSS event a few days after writing this post and my 328d w/Shockware did very well. I kept the 8AT in 3rd the whole time and had a great time on the figure 8 and the mini autoX at the end of the day. I thought my 245/40/r19 BS Potenza S-04 Pole Position did fairly well, but I'm sure the PSS would have been better. I bought the S-04s as a more affordable compromise because I only attend a few driving events a year.

I was surprised and disappointed to experience as much understeer as I did. I hope to improve the car's performance (and decrease understeer) for next season by having the H&R RSB installed. At that point it probably would make sense to upgrade to the PSS to match my upgraded suspension. Can't wait!

Would love to see 328d at autox, could you share some clips if you have any?

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Forgiven

Would love to see 328d at autox, could you share some clips if you have any?

Clips? That's way beyond my pay grade. Next year I'll try to get a friend to do that for me. I'm moving to New Mexico in January so I'll be getting into the BMWCCA scene out there. A lot more driving events per year I would guess because of the better weather.

BTW, I'm also going to be getting a piggyback module (from Steinbauer Performance) to take hp 180>217 and lb-ft 280>332. That should help!

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I was surprised to see my post in this thread, but I'll answer my own question anyway. I did an ADSS event a few days after writing this post and my 328d w/Shockware did very well. I kept the 8AT in 3rd the whole time and had a great time on the figure 8 and the mini autoX at the end of the day. I thought my 245/40/r19 BS Potenza S-04 Pole Position did fairly well, but I'm sure the PSS would have been better. I bought the S-04s as a more affordable compromise because I only attend a few driving events a year.

I was surprised and disappointed to experience as much understeer as I did. I hope to improve the car's performance (and decrease understeer) for next season by having the H&R RSB installed. At that point it probably would make sense to upgrade to the PSS to match my upgraded suspension. Can't wait!

Couple things for you... if you get new tires, get Dunlop ZII's. There are a couple other options close in performance, but those are WAY agove what you have listed for options, and considerably more affordable.

Understeer is by design in the car. Putting a rear bar on it will not correct it all that much in most cases. What you need to do is get as much rubber on the front as you can (try to square up to whatever you have in the rear, even if you are a staggered wheel setup). Then have the alignment modified to maximize camber on the fronts and go zero toe, to a slight toe out. That will help significantly.

On the RWD cars we put on a FRONT bar actually. Helps get more power down on corner exit. Tire pressures and the alignment information I gave you is how we dial out the understeer. If you overdrive you'll still get plenty of push, but the car will approach good neutral attitude on anything but a tight hairpin with the right adjustments and alignment.

Hope that helps and enjoy!

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by utenigma

The Dinan springs aren't legal, but the MPerf port installed springs are, as are all other MPerf parts including the LSD

I didn't realize the springs were a port option.. that's got some awesome potential then!

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Couple things for you... if you get new tires, get Dunlop ZII's. There are a couple other options close in performance, but those are WAY agove what you have listed for options, and considerably more affordable.

Understeer is by design in the car. Putting a rear bar on it will not correct it all that much in most cases. What you need to do is get as much rubber on the front as you can (try to square up to whatever you have in the rear, even if you are a staggered wheel setup). Then have the alignment modified to maximize camber on the fronts and go zero toe, to a slight toe out. That will help significantly.

On the RWD cars we put on a FRONT bar actually. Helps get more power down on corner exit. Tire pressures and the alignment information I gave you is how we dial out the understeer. If you overdrive you'll still get plenty of push, but the car will approach good neutral attitude on anything but a tight hairpin with the right adjustments and alignment.

Hope that helps and enjoy!

Just curious: What are the options other than the ZIIs that you would mention? Nothing against the Dunlop, I just like learning about tires. After perusing TR for a bit the BS RE-11a seems attractive to me. I'd like something a bit more civilized on the road even if it's not the total cat's meow in autoX. I really need to figure out how serious a commitment I will be making to taking my car to autoX and then decide which tire to go with based on that. The RE-11a seems a good compromise between the S-04/PSS and more edgy race tires, I'm just not sure I want/need to go that far into race mode for my car.

So you're recommending foursquare setup (which I have), better tires, negative front camber (0.5 degrees), and a fsb. Not sure what information regarding tire pressure you're referring to.

The fsb recommendation comes as a surprise to me. Do others agree?

[DVC]

When I did my sway bars, I did the rear a week before adding the front. The car had a very clear bias toward rotating around a corner with less steering input in this configuration. It's a different feeling than adding more front end grip (e.g. with camber plates) but the result was clear. FSBs flatten out the front end, which among other things reduces weight transfer to the outside front tire... which typically results in more understeer, not less.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by DVC

When I did my sway bars, I did the rear a week before adding the front. The car had a very clear bias toward rotating around a corner with less steering input in this configuration. It's a different feeling than adding more front end grip (e.g. with camber plates) but the result was clear. FSBs flatten out the front end, which among other things reduces weight transfer to the outside front tire... which typically results in more understeer, not less.

And what is the rationale for adding both RSB and FSB instead of only RSB?

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by DVC

When I did my sway bars, I did the rear a week before adding the front. The car had a very clear bias toward rotating around a corner with less steering input in this configuration. It's a different feeling than adding more front end grip (e.g. with camber plates) but the result was clear. FSBs flatten out the front end, which among other things reduces weight transfer to the outside front tire... which typically results in more understeer, not less.

In the stock classes in SCCA you can only add one bar. So you have to choose.

It's not always about maximizing the perceived cornering behavior, but best weight transfer attributes etc. I've raced E36's and E90's for the last 6 years, so I'm working from that experience. ALL of the BMW guys run front bars.

You have to remember that whatever end you put the sway bar on picks up more weight transfer, which you rightly assumed, however, it also stiffens the roll rate on that end as well. Adding a front bar actually REDUCES camber loss at the front end, which increases front grip. If you don't make toe and camber changes at the same time you won't receive most of the benefit. Additionally, the increased stiffness at the front prevents over loading of the rear outside tire, and the reduced (relative) rear sway bar stiffness allows the inside rear tire to maintain more contact during acceleration and stabilizes corner exit power delivery. By then modifying rear toe slightly you are able to generate the rotation you need, improve rear grip under cornering as well, and increase the overall performance of the car.

It is a delicate balance though, you can't just throw the biggest stiffest thing you can at the front and "succeed". Most of the cars do take a pretty beefy bar, but adjustable bars really help to dial in the correct balance. I don't think the F30 has much different on the front geometry to really change what has been the standard from the E36, E46, and E90.