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      05-20-2014, 07:31 AM   #1
sdhotwn
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Post F8x vs. F3x if they were the same price

Having owned an E36 M3, and driven the E46 M3 a number of times, I would say the "unique" engine and sound etc is really only the providence of the E90. Neither of the engines in the other M's did much for me (never got to drive an E30 though...). I loved the E36, was fully underwhelmed by the E46 though (frankly feel the new F30's are on par to better than what I experienced in the E46). I think a lot of the discussion and beliefs revolve around constructs created by the enthusiasts rather than a lot of reality. I've been racing various cars and karts for over 10 years, and for me the M's only really shine in earnest on the track (or if you are hooning it on the street, which is another soapbox for another time). They are great street cars, but so was the 330 ZHP, 135is, and the new MSport 335i's etc. The M's are truly special when on the track, which is how many days of the year for most? The other cars definitely don't have the M mystique, but they are often equal to or better as a daily driver on the street.

Note: This was a discussion in another thread that went off topic, and got moved here.
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      05-20-2014, 07:46 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by sdhotwn View Post
The other cars definitely don't have the M mystique, but they are often equal to or better as a daily driver on the street.
Having driven both M and non-M cars extensively as daily drivers, I can't agree with you here. For the most fun day in and day out, the M is the right choice vs. the series sibling. The great thing is that you can indeed still have fun in a 335i. And for that matter you can have plenty of fun in a V6 Accord too. You just have to decide how much it's worth to you to have incrementally more fun than the guy in the next best thing.
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      05-20-2014, 08:02 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Having driven both M and non-M cars extensively as daily drivers, I can't agree with you here. For the most fun day in and day out, the M is the right choice vs. the series sibling. The great thing is that you can indeed still have fun in a 335i. And for that matter you can have plenty of fun in a V6 Accord too. You just have to decide how much it's worth to you to have incrementally more fun than the guy in the next best thing.
For me, I found the stiffness with the craptastic roads in Wisconsin, plus the paranoia against door dings heightened over other cars, the constant challenges from ricers and others, and the additional fillups and trying to find good gas to all be too wearing on a day to day basis for my type of commute. That said, I would grab the M when I was going for errands because it was more fun, but I also left it home for longer trips. The E90 gets around this a little with the magnetic shocks, but the gas mileage becomes a bigger issue - not as much for me, but the constant complaints from the wife about the filling up (something about the environment or the like ). Those tradeoffs just weren't worth it. Unfortunately I can only fit two cars currently, and that really cramps my tolerance for niggles like that. I'd put one in the third stall in a heart beat, if there was a third stall!

All those reasons are why my 2013 WRX lasted 9 months in my garage as well, that and it was a chincy pile of crap (while very fun to drive!).
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      05-20-2014, 08:25 AM   #4
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For me, I found the stiffness with the craptastic roads in Wisconsin, plus the paranoia against door dings heightened over other cars, the constant challenges from ricers and others, and the additional fillups and trying to find good gas to all be too wearing on a day to day basis for my type of commute.
I hear you. I think most of us struggle with the same kinds of tradeoffs when weighing options, or at least have at one time or another. I've learned over the years how to short circuit the analysis and not dwell too much on the intricacies of the decision. The first question I ask myself is "If someone offered me the M for the same money as the series car, would any of negatives even be an issue anymore?" The answer to that is always a definitive "No way!". That helps zero in on the real question - value. And that's where my "you only live once" philosophy kicks in. So there you have it. A nice tidy decision making process without letting the outside world talk me out of it.
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      05-20-2014, 08:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I hear you. I think most of us struggle with the same kinds of tradeoffs when weighing options, or at least have at one time or another. I've learned over the years how to short circuit the analysis and not dwell too much on the intricacies of the decision. The first question I ask myself is "If someone offered me the M for the same money as the series car, would any of negatives even be an issue anymore?" The answer to that is always a definitive "No way!". That helps zero in on the real question - value. And that's where my "you only live once" philosophy kicks in. So there you have it. A nice tidy decision making process without letting the outside world talk me out of it.
That so perfectly describes my thought process.
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      05-20-2014, 09:57 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I hear you. I think most of us struggle with the same kinds of tradeoffs when weighing options, or at least have at one time or another. I've learned over the years how to short circuit the analysis and not dwell too much on the intricacies of the decision. The first question I ask myself is "If someone offered me the M for the same money as the series car, would any of negatives even be an issue anymore?" The answer to that is always a definitive "No way!". That helps zero in on the real question - value. And that's where my "you only live once" philosophy kicks in. So there you have it. A nice tidy decision making process without letting the outside world talk me out of it.
Problem for me is that given that same question... I don't have a clear answer. I just had to answer it myself in the past month as I could get a CPO M3 for the same as I paid for my F30 335i. I chose the F30 because of comfort, space, and other factors in discussion with my wife. I'm still pretty sure I made the right decision, but note that it is "pretty sure" not "100% confident!"

Those in the discussion have to remember/admit that as crazy as it may seem some of us make different decisions than they would. I understand both sides (not possible to completely do so but to some extent at least), because only a few years ago I made the reverse decision to what I have done now. Both will be right I think.
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      05-20-2014, 09:57 AM   #7
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I preferred the S54 even over the S65. The lower redline helps in day to day traffic and the tq difference is only about 30 lb ft lower but you get a significant weight saving so it's ok and the car somehow feels way more responsive. In manual please... the SMG is an abomination IMHO.
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      05-20-2014, 01:06 PM   #8
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Problem for me is that given that same question... I don't have a clear answer. I just had to answer it myself in the past month as I could get a CPO M3 for the same as I paid for my F30 335i.
Sort of, but not really. I am talking about two brand new cars, not CPO vs. new or any other trade-offs of that nature. The point is to ask yourself the question in such a way as to keep yourself from being dishonest to protect ulterior motivations you may be predisposed or subject to.

Quote:
Those in the discussion have to remember/admit that as crazy as it may seem some of us make different decisions than they would.
The compromise you made doesn't seem crazy to me at all. Taking a 2015 335i M-Sport instead of a 2015 M3 with the same options for the same price would be though.
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      05-20-2014, 01:16 PM   #9
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...
I am not sure you got @mkoesel's point on BMW and Accords....

He said:
Quote:
Having driven both M and non-M cars extensively as daily drivers, I can't agree with you here. For the most fun day in and day out, the M is the right choice vs. the series sibling. The great thing is that you can indeed still have fun in a 335i. And for that matter you can have plenty of fun in a V6 Accord too. You just have to decide how much it's worth to you to have incrementally more fun than the guy in the next best thing.
I can't claim the M experience he has, but the last half of the statement (bolded) is as right as a statement can be.

The thing that gets so easily lost on an enthusiast forum like this is that everyone thinks they need the best or, more accurately, fastest and most expensive car to have fun. I take it you don't - which is good. MKOESEL's point is that he doesn't think so either. Sure, there can be more fun in a faster, more powerful, etc, sports car, but it may also be a question of diminishing returns for additional cost (the "incrimental return") AND there is of course lots of fun in almost any car that has any kind of power at all if you know how to drive and if you have a place where you can safely push the car.

(edit: ps - I expect the reason you were called on the trolling is because you are here, on an F8X forum, calling those who like M cars or who look forward to the F8x "fanboys". If I go to the X6 forum and start picking fights about how awful the X6 is, how ugly it is and how (god forbid) anyone who owns an X6M must have extra chromosomes, etc, that would be trolling. If you aren't interested in this car, that is fine, just take it to another forum and talk about cars you are interested in)

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      05-20-2014, 01:20 PM   #10
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I genuinly wonder if Pagani guys also have complained and were in this much grief when Mr. Horacio decided to pass from NA engine of Zonda to the FI engine of Huayra

Also, why so few people seem to praise (what I would call) a leap in suspension and chassis technology achieved for this generation is beyond me, especially when I consider that this is supposedly a model which is offered for 'driving' enthusiasts not for opera crowd who have very sensitive ears.

We had the crappiest stock M exhaust ever offered by Munich with the 1M which was either too mute or alternatively was droning too much depending on which rpm you are and yet I don't remember anyone who held back or regretted buying the car because of this weakness! Can be even a good thing at the end, 1M received more than 25 aftermarket options (I made a list at one point) some really very very good so expect many different options for the new M3 too. Just another reason to further personalize your car imho.
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      05-20-2014, 01:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
I genuinly wonder if Pagani guys also have complained and were in this much grief when Mr. Horacio decided to pass from NA engine of Zonda to the FI engine of Huayra

Also, why so few people seem to praise (what I would call) a leap in suspension and chassis technology achieved for this generation is beyond me, especially when I consider that this is supposedly a model which is offered for 'driving' enthusiasts not for opera crowd who have very sensitive ears.

We had the crappiest stock M exhaust ever offered by Munich with the 1M which was either too mute or alternatively was droning too much depending on which rpm you are and yet I don't remember anyone who held back or regretted buying the car because of this weakness! Can be even a good thing at the end, 1M received more than 25 aftermarket options (I made a list at one point) some really very very good so expect many different options for the new M3 too. Just another reason to further personalize your car imho.
Pagani is WAYYYY out of my range of cars. i have only experienced paganis with youtube videos. i will say this from the videos the new turbo engines no longer have that screaming sound they once had. so i would say at least they lost some noise. exhaust wise.

although pagani made the turbos really loud, you can hear them a lot while driving. It actually sounds pretty cool. unlike most turbo engines that try to hide the turbo noise.
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      05-20-2014, 01:55 PM   #12
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I've got to say that after owning several regular BMWs including a 335i I do not agree with that M cars only shine on the track. Every journey I make in an M car feels special. I can feel the difference in every day driving. Of course when you push the car the difference is even more noticeable. It all comes down to whether these differences are worth the extra cash to an individual or not- for me the answer is yes, in fact I think for the differences over a top if the range series car , the M cars offer so much more for a reasonable price increase. The new M3 IMO is a bargain for the performance and looks on offer.
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      05-20-2014, 02:29 PM   #13
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I've got to say that after owning several regular BMWs including a 335i I do not agree with that M cars only shine on the track. Every journey I make in an M car feels special. I can feel the difference in every day driving. Of course when you push the car the difference is even more noticeable. It all comes down to whether these differences are worth the extra cash to an individual or not- for me the answer is yes, in fact I think for the differences over a top if the range series car , the M cars offer so much more for a reasonable price increase. The new M3 IMO is a bargain for the performance and looks on offer.
I agree. Having owned the last two generations of M3's and driven many various bmw cars, they truly are a cut above. I would also echo that M cars shine on more than just a track, but they handle the track business quite well. They feel better, generally look better, hold their value better (once the initial decrease has passed), and turn heads everywhere. They dont compare IMO.
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      05-23-2014, 09:27 AM   #14
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The compromise you made doesn't seem crazy to me at all. Taking a 2015 335i M-Sport instead of a 2015 M3 with the same options for the same price would be though.
Absolutely.
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      05-23-2014, 09:46 AM   #15
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Absolutely.
See, so you are most of the way there already. Indeed all the things you cited as disadvantages aren't really strong enough to matter if the price is right. So they can in fact be ignored if you put your mind to it, and you understand its really just a question of value. Granted paying more money for the M, and then having to worry more about living with it on a daily basis as far as driving around in a possession holding that much more value and also wondering how others will treat you and respect your property can be a distraction. But once you make the plunge, I think you'll find the fears sort of fade. After all, there are lots of people in Escalades, S Classes, and other cars of similar prices to an M3 that we typically don't really think twice about. Sure the M3 gets more stares and comments than those, but you learn to ignore the negative attention and appreciate the positive attention.

I recommend you give the M another try as a daily. It really is the most fun you can have in a car whose practicality is roughly equivalent to a Cam-cord or other family runabout.
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      05-23-2014, 10:01 AM   #16
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See, so you are most of the way there already. Indeed all the things you cited as disadvantages aren't really strong enough to matter if the price is right. So they can in fact be ignored if you put your mind to it, and you understand its really just a question of value. Granted paying more money for the M, and then having to worry more about living with it on a daily basis as far as driving around in a possession holding that much more value and also wondering how others will treat you and respect your property can be a distraction. But once you make the plunge, I think you'll find the fears sort of fade. After all, there are lots of people in Escalades, S Classes, and other cars of similar prices to an M3 that we typically don't really think twice about. Sure the M3 gets more stares and comments than those, but you learn to ignore the negative attention and appreciate the positive attention.

I recommend you give the M another try as a daily. It really is the most fun you can have in a car whose practicality is roughly equivalent to a Cam-cord or other family runabout.
I likely will. I did, and still do love the styling of the E90 M3. Just nice and muscular looking. I do not, and did not, care for the E46 styling. The F30 I think looks great in MSport trim, plus the cushy ride with the DHP is what ended up winning me over. I honestly like it a little better than the M3 styling (but would kill for the hood bulge and fenders). I have a real problem with the shark gills on the side, remind me of the mid 2000's Ford Focus and just don't look attractive to me in the least. We have to have 4 doors on our cars as well, and a stick which it does meet without issue. I think the new M3 would have met my needs for comfort etc, but with us buying a new house next year etc I couldn't justify the extra money at the time. I DID drive the M235i during the buying process (along with Audi, and Cadillac, etc) and THAT car was a revelation of fun as a daily driver. Screamed E36 M3 with more horsepower. I had so much fun on that drive! So I'm hopeful for the M2 as well which may be my summer daily driver in the future.

For me the magnetic shocks are the resolution to most of my problems with a DD M car. Gives me the comfort I want daily, but then the stiffness for the weekend fun. I've loved and adored the M brand for 15+ years, and it was a GREAT day when i got the E36 M3. I'm a little obsessive though, and short on tolerance, so the constant impacts and the endless rattles wore on me for the daily drive of that car over time, but it was ALWAYS fun to drive to work.

Right now the, I believe, 20k gap between my optioned 335i and my similarly equipped M3 is greater than i can financially justify right now with house shopping and starting a family. That said, the new M3 to me ticks all the right boxes, comfort, power, and reasonable economy wrapped up. I think it is a GREAT car, just not the right car for me at this moment. Euro delivery in 4-5 years - probably (or the M2)!

Going back to some of the discussion though, The E90 versus the F30, there are enough drawbacks that matter to me, and no financial difference really (honestly the E90 is better because of depreciation etc already occuring), that I felt the F30 had made enough of a jump in appearance and function to override the fun factor the E90 could provide. I do have access to an E90 M and an E90 325i to autocross etc if I wanted as well. I have the M as the wallpaper on a few devices too. I do worship at the altar of M, but for now the lesser shrine of MSport will meet my needs for a daily sermon as religious adherent to car enthusiasm of the Bavarian mode!
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      05-23-2014, 01:59 PM   #17
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I've got to say that after owning several regular BMWs including a 335i I do not agree with that M cars only shine on the track. Every journey I make in an M car feels special. I can feel the difference in every day driving. Of course when you push the car the difference is even more noticeable. It all comes down to whether these differences are worth the extra cash to an individual or not- for me the answer is yes, in fact I think for the differences over a top if the range series car , the M cars offer so much more for a reasonable price increase. The new M3 IMO is a bargain for the performance and looks on offer.
I would clarify my earlier comment a bit here too. I would definitely not say that an M car ONLY shines on the track. I would say it TRULY shines on the track. Definitely has an extra something on the street, but it also does carry a little bit of that track baggage to the street (higher maintenance, stiffer ride, poorer mileage, etc kind of things).

I agree the M cars are also a huge bargain relative to their lines. I don't think AMG is quite as close of a bargain, but that becomes a fuzzy argument fast.
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      05-23-2014, 02:09 PM   #18
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I agree. Having owned the last two generations of M3's and driven many various bmw cars, they truly are a cut above. I would also echo that M cars shine on more than just a track, but they handle the track business quite well. They feel better, generally look better, hold their value better (once the initial decrease has passed), and turn heads everywhere. They dont compare IMO.
Humorously, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that they don't compare. They are fallible enough in some of the things they require, and costs implied that they do compare for me. But that is very much FOR ME. My opinion was totally different 5 years ago too!

I honestly think one of the big reasons that I think detracts and makes them somehow comparable was I started doing some the XtremeXperience track things and have gotten the chance to drive the Nissan GTR, Aston DBS, McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche 996 GT2, Lamborghini LP-560, and the Audi R8. All of which are amazing cars (the Aston not so much for the track ability, but the sounds and looks). But they reinforced one principal for me that made it so I have NO interest in owning any of them anymore (well, the Porsche I'd take actually). They are so capable, so amazing, so comfortable, that when you drive them on the street you are accessing only 20-30% of what the car is about. Tracking them unlocks the rest, but then puts the entire price tag at risk. Add in the additional maintenance, insurance, constant attention, etc it just wears thing quickly (in my mental exercises at least). As a six figure household, that's not happening! Until I have more money than I know what to do with and could make those cars disposable, they become a bit useless (to me). They are great to drive a couple of times a year, so I continue to rent opportunities when I can because I love them, but I'd never own them.

There is something about knowing the car is capable of so much more than I use it for that bothers me actually. I loved wringing out 90% of my 318's capability every day. It was just so much fun to do! Great cars like the M's just do it too easily, and while more fun than other options, also are saddening to me in others because it just makes me want the track more - but then don't want to risk destroying that beautiful thing. Such a conundrum!
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      05-23-2014, 02:25 PM   #19
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Humorously, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that they don't compare. They are fallible enough in some of the things they require, and costs implied that they do compare for me. But that is very much FOR ME. My opinion was totally different 5 years ago too!

I honestly think one of the big reasons that I think detracts and makes them somehow comparable was I started doing some the XtremeXperience track things and have gotten the chance to drive the Nissan GTR, Aston DBS, McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche 996 GT2, Lamborghini LP-560, and the Audi R8. All of which are amazing cars (the Aston not so much for the track ability, but the sounds and looks). But they reinforced one principal for me that made it so I have NO interest in owning any of them anymore (well, the Porsche I'd take actually). They are so capable, so amazing, so comfortable, that when you drive them on the street you are accessing only 20-30% of what the car is about. Tracking them unlocks the rest, but then puts the entire price tag at risk. Add in the additional maintenance, insurance, constant attention, etc it just wears thing quickly (in my mental exercises at least). As a six figure household, that's not happening! Until I have more money than I know what to do with and could make those cars disposable, they become a bit useless (to me). They are great to drive a couple of times a year, so I continue to rent opportunities when I can because I love them, but I'd never own them.

There is something about knowing the car is capable of so much more than I use it for that bothers me actually. I loved wringing out 90% of my 318's capability every day. It was just so much fun to do! Great cars like the M's just do it too easily, and while more fun than other options, also are saddening to me in others because it just makes me want the track more - but then don't want to risk destroying that beautiful thing. Such a conundrum!
I empathise with your post and feel the same to some degree.
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      05-23-2014, 02:47 PM   #20
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Humorously, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that they don't compare. They are fallible enough in some of the things they require, and costs implied that they do compare for me. But that is very much FOR ME. My opinion was totally different 5 years ago too!

I honestly think one of the big reasons that I think detracts and makes them somehow comparable was I started doing some the XtremeXperience track things and have gotten the chance to drive the Nissan GTR, Aston DBS, McLaren MP4-12C, Ferrari 458 Italia, Porsche 996 GT2, Lamborghini LP-560, and the Audi R8. All of which are amazing cars (the Aston not so much for the track ability, but the sounds and looks). But they reinforced one principal for me that made it so I have NO interest in owning any of them anymore (well, the Porsche I'd take actually). They are so capable, so amazing, so comfortable, that when you drive them on the street you are accessing only 20-30% of what the car is about. Tracking them unlocks the rest, but then puts the entire price tag at risk. Add in the additional maintenance, insurance, constant attention, etc it just wears thing quickly (in my mental exercises at least). As a six figure household, that's not happening! Until I have more money than I know what to do with and could make those cars disposable, they become a bit useless (to me). They are great to drive a couple of times a year, so I continue to rent opportunities when I can because I love them, but I'd never own them.

There is something about knowing the car is capable of so much more than I use it for that bothers me actually. I loved wringing out 90% of my 318's capability every day. It was just so much fun to do! Great cars like the M's just do it too easily, and while more fun than other options, also are saddening to me in others because it just makes me want the track more - but then don't want to risk destroying that beautiful thing. Such a conundrum!
I can see where you're coming from. The first time I took my E92 on the track I thought, "Wow, what if i crash this thing?" Once I saw what it was capable of, I knew that I would track any sports/sports oriented car that I ever purchase. Sure, there's risk, but I could just as easily get in an accident driving it around town (and have more damage than just runoff at a track like willow springs). Its a chance im willing to take, but I completely understand your point of view.

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      05-23-2014, 02:48 PM   #21
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Pagani is WAYYYY out of my range of cars. i have only experienced paganis with youtube videos. i will say this from the videos the new turbo engines no longer have that screaming sound they once had. so i would say at least they lost some noise. exhaust wise.

although pagani made the turbos really loud, you can hear them a lot while driving. It actually sounds pretty cool. unlike most turbo engines that try to hide the turbo noise.
That is like sex in my ears.
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      05-23-2014, 03:35 PM   #22
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I can see where you're coming from. The first time I took my E92 on the track I thought, "Wow, what if i crash this thing?" Once I saw what it was capable of, I knew that I would track any sports/sports oriented car that I ever purchase. Sure, there's risk, but I could just as easily get in an accident driving it around town (and have more damage than just runoff at a track like willow springs). Its a chance im willing to take, but I completely understand your point of view.

Insurance being the difference there! I've already lost an engine on a car I built on the track, and I've seen plenty go on wreckers. If I can't flush it I don't track it basically! One of the big reasons i race karts now. But yeah, tracking a sport oriented car is SOOO much fun!
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