proTUNING Freaks
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > M3/M4 versus...

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-15-2014, 07:14 PM   #1
renaissance
Private First Class
renaissance's Avatar
70
Rep
171
Posts

Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Taipei

iTrader: (0)

How faster is F80 compared to the E92?

As you can see from the clip that F80 is faster than E92, but E92 is V8 with higher RPM

So E9X M3 owner, please keep your baby. Due to marketing strategy, you probably won't see any new BMW V8 M car in the future



Last edited by renaissance; 05-15-2014 at 07:28 PM..
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 07:43 PM   #2
M6-Coupe
Major General
M6-Coupe's Avatar
1125
Rep
6,065
Posts

Drives: F92 M8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay area

iTrader: (0)

You are right F80 is faster than E92, but the video you posted is not a good comparison since the F80 is using launch control and E92 is on MDM mode and you can see DSC is stopping the car (it's flashing).
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT
Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT
Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT
Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 07:49 PM   #3
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Not a fair comparo: DCT vs 6MT
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 08:07 PM   #4
Karmic Man
Lieutenant Colonel
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
1996
Rep
1,759
Posts

Drives: M2C
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

I suspect from 3rd gear onward where it's about horsepower rather than peak torque, the new Ms will not be much faster unless the S55 engine is substantially underrated.

To really make a difference the S55 will need to have at least 450hp at crank.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:04 PM   #5
tdizzle
Colonel
United_States
107
Rep
1,997
Posts

Drives: 2017 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Memphis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Not a fair comparo: DCT vs 6MT
I don't think people on this forum would agree given they're comparing m6 with cp vs m4. This is a more logical comparison if not ideal.

Still interesting and gives an idea about the comparing between the old vs the new that many have been asking for.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:07 PM   #6
tdizzle
Colonel
United_States
107
Rep
1,997
Posts

Drives: 2017 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Memphis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
You are right F80 is faster than E92, but the video you posted is not a good comparison since the F80 is using launch control and E92 is on MDM mode and you can see DSC is stopping the car (it's flashing).
They move to 100kph so fast I didn't even notice that. I was focusing in how they compared once they hit 3rd gear and above when both stayed in their power bands most of the time ( high rpm is where the e92 likes to spend it's time)
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:17 PM   #7
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
I suspect from 3rd gear onward where it's about horsepower rather than peak torque, the new Ms will not be much faster unless the S55 engine is substantially underrated.

To really make a difference the S55 will need to have at least 450hp at crank.
As much as I love the S65, it makes 414hp only at 8300RPM. The S55 makes 425hp from 5500 to 7300RPM. This is sufficient to allow it to pull ahead.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:20 PM   #8
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
I don't think people on this forum would agree given they're comparing m6 with cp vs m4. This is a more logical comparison if not ideal.

Still interesting and gives an idea about the comparing between the old vs the new that many have been asking for.
I have no doubts that the F8X will be faster regardless.

But, while it might be fun, F8X with DCT vs E9X with 6MT is still not a valid comparo IMO.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:37 PM   #9
Karmic Man
Lieutenant Colonel
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
1996
Rep
1,759
Posts

Drives: M2C
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As much as I love the S65, it makes 414hp only at 8300RPM. The S55 makes 425hp from 5500 to 7300RPM. This is sufficient to allow it to pull ahead.
11hp is nothing!

Especially after you factored into the drivetrain lost.
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 09:53 PM   #10
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As much as I love the S65, it makes 414hp only at 8300RPM. The S55 makes 425hp from 5500 to 7300RPM. This is sufficient to allow it to pull ahead.
11hp is nothing!

Especially after you factored into the drivetrain lost.
You are missing the point. The RPM width of the power band is what makes the difference here, not the peak value.

From 10 to 250km/h the S55 with DCT generates an average ~400hp while the S65 with DCT only generates an average ~352hp. That is 48hp less.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-15-2014 at 09:58 PM..
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 10:15 PM   #11
M6-Coupe
Major General
M6-Coupe's Avatar
1125
Rep
6,065
Posts

Drives: F92 M8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
I don't think people on this forum would agree given they're comparing m6 with cp vs m4. This is a more logical comparison if not ideal.
I got that
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT
Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT
Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT
Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8
Appreciate 0
      05-15-2014, 10:32 PM   #12
M6-Coupe
Major General
M6-Coupe's Avatar
1125
Rep
6,065
Posts

Drives: F92 M8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
They move to 100kph so fast I didn't even notice that. I was focusing in how they compared once they hit 3rd gear and above when both stayed in their power bands most of the time ( high rpm is where the e92 likes to spend it's time)

well, let's review it again
First of all according to 0-100 F80 reaches faster because it's using Launch control and as you know both needs to go to second gear to reach 100. so it means F80 has better launch (LC vs MDM) and better shift to second gear (DCT vs MT?) and that's not a good comparison. Second, at 3rd and 4th and 5th gear F80 is running at 5500-7200 which has a flat curve of Maximum horse power while E92 is running between 6000-8300 and it just generates the Maximum horse power above 8000. please see the pictures... as you know the first one is S65 and the second one is S55

Edit: I'm not saying S55 is not faster than S65. It is faster but in order to see how much faster you need to compare two car (F80 vs E92) when both are DCT and using Launch Control
Attached Images
  
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT
Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT
Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT
Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8

Last edited by M6-Coupe; 05-16-2014 at 03:18 AM..
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 12:00 AM   #13
MrCsquared
Lieutenant
MrCsquared's Avatar
79
Rep
401
Posts

Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
As much as I love the S65, it makes 414hp only at 8300RPM. The S55 makes 425hp from 5500 to 7300RPM. This is sufficient to allow it to pull ahead.
11hp is nothing!

Especially after you factored into the drivetrain lost.
You are missing the point. The RPM width of the power band is what makes the difference here, not the peak value.

From 10 to 250km/h the S55 with DCT generates an average ~400hp while the S65 with DCT only generates an average ~352hp. That is 48hp less.
I feel bad every time someone has to explain basic power delivery to illustrate this point. This "11 hp is nothing" comment comes up in every thread lol.
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 12:27 AM   #14
Karmic Man
Lieutenant Colonel
Karmic Man's Avatar
Australia
1996
Rep
1,759
Posts

Drives: M2C
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: World

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You are missing the point. The RPM width of the power band is what makes the difference here, not the peak value.

From 10 to 250km/h the S55 with DCT generates an average ~400hp while the S65 with DCT only generates an average ~352hp. That is 48hp less.
Excuse my ignorance but I really don't know how u came up with those figures...I can see that the S65 has a very flat torque curve where as with the S55 it's diminishing substantially from 5500rpm onwards so the torque advantage it has over the S65 is continuously diminishing. Also the S65 revs to 8400rpm which is 800rpm more and that's when it can claw back those lost times when the S55 has to move up to a higher gear.
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 10:17 AM   #15
tdizzle
Colonel
United_States
107
Rep
1,997
Posts

Drives: 2017 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Memphis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Excuse my ignorance but I really don't know how u came up with those figures...I can see that the S65 has a very flat torque curve where as with the S55 it's diminishing substantially from 5500rpm onwards so the torque advantage it has over the S65 is continuously diminishing. Also the S65 revs to 8400rpm which is 800rpm more and that's when it can claw back those lost times when the S55 has to move up to a higher gear.
He's just looking at the RPM range that each car is in at WOT from shift to shift and looking at the hp made over that range and getting the average.

The S55 makes basically the exact same power in it's rpm range that we're looking at while the S65 starts off lower but then hits its peak way up top, so it's not making its peak hp the whole time like the S55 is.

Hopefully, I didn't make that even more confusing...

Edit: The graphs M6 Coupe posted a couple posts above do a better job at explaining this visually than I could hope to.
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 10:25 AM   #16
tdizzle
Colonel
United_States
107
Rep
1,997
Posts

Drives: 2017 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Memphis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
well, let's review it again
First of all according to 0-100 F80 reaches faster because it's using Launch control and as you know both needs to go to second gear to reach 100. so it means F80 has better launch (LC vs MDM) and better shift to second gear (DCT vs MT?) and that's not a good comparison. Second, at 3rd and 4th and 5th gear F80 is running at 5500-7200 which has a flat curve of Maximum horse power while E92 is running between 6000-8300 and it just generates the Maximum horse power above 8000. please see the pictures... as you know the first one is S65 and the second one is S55

Edit: I'm not saying S55 is not faster than S65. It is faster but in order to see how much faster you need to compare two car (F80 vs E92) when both are DCT and using Launch Control
You're right, a better comparison would be DCT vs DCT both using launch control but this one isn't that far off once launch is taken out of the equation and maybe a few tenths for the shifts. So maybe DCT is giving the M4 a .5 second or so advantage over that long race? Surely not more than a full second.

Regardless, the graphs you posted illustrated perfectly that the M4 has more power at every single rpm range and is lighter (although maybe not so much as one would assume since the dct is heavier than the manual) so it's only logical it's faster. The question will be how much. Maybe a few tenths of a second 0-60, and probably half a second, maybe a bit more in the quarter mile. It'll be faster we have no doubt but it's not like a race between a 328 and the M3. The cars do make close to the same hp once you get high in the power band and luckily for the E92 that's where WOT races spend most of the time.
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 10:58 AM   #17
M6-Coupe
Major General
M6-Coupe's Avatar
1125
Rep
6,065
Posts

Drives: F92 M8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
You're right, a better comparison would be DCT vs DCT both using launch control but this one isn't that far off once launch is taken out of the equation and maybe a few tenths for the shifts. So maybe DCT is giving the M4 a .5 second or so advantage over that long race? Surely not more than a full second.

Regardless, the graphs you posted illustrated perfectly that the M4 has more power at every single rpm range and is lighter (although maybe not so much as one would assume since the dct is heavier than the manual) so it's only logical it's faster. The question will be how much. Maybe a few tenths of a second 0-60, and probably half a second, maybe a bit more in the quarter mile. It'll be faster we have no doubt but it's not like a race between a 328 and the M3. The cars do make close to the same hp once you get high in the power band and luckily for the E92 that's where WOT races spend most of the time.
You are correct and I agree with you my point was just the launch and both of us are saying the same thing now
But do not forget that M6 is faster than M3/M4 ... (I'm just teasing you after several quotes in several threads )
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT
Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT
Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT
Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 01:10 PM   #18
tdizzle
Colonel
United_States
107
Rep
1,997
Posts

Drives: 2017 F80 ZCP
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Memphis

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
You are correct and I agree with you my point was just the launch and both of us are saying the same thing now
But do not forget that M6 is faster than M3/M4 ... (I'm just teasing you after several quotes in several threads )
I lol'd (we can't go more than 3 comments without a shout out to the M6, it just wouldn't be right!)

But if this was golf the M3 is obviously the best M car since lowest number wins right (oh no, now the 1M guys are going to jump in...)
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 03:34 PM   #19
///M Power-Belgium
General
///M Power-Belgium's Avatar
Belgium
62749
Rep
24,514
Posts

Drives: ///M3-E92-DCT Silverstone II
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Belgium

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
11hp is nothing!

Especially after you factored into the drivetrain lost.
Not agreed ! Stop the video at exactly "0.05" ! And what can we see ?
Yes...BOOM !!! E9X = 100 km/u and in the same time the F80 = 120 km/u !!!
Even DCT and with a software/upgrade will not close the gap of 20 km/u !
20 km/u difference and that in 0-100 km/u is huge !
Saw enough ,so let's be honest F80 will smoke E9X and that all day long !
But will keep my E92 !
Note... this is a copy of my comment from here >http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=986040
__________________
"MAX VERSTAPPEN" IS THE 2021+2022+2023 F1 WORLD CHAMPION - #UnLeashTheLion

BPM DEV-Tune & DCT Software-Tune & Servotronic & coding ///Alpine HID Angeleyes ///Oem.exhaust mod.
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 05:36 PM   #20
M6-Coupe
Major General
M6-Coupe's Avatar
1125
Rep
6,065
Posts

Drives: F92 M8
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdizzle View Post
I lol'd (we can't go more than 3 comments without a shout out to the M6, it just wouldn't be right!)

But if this was golf the M3 is obviously the best M car since lowest number wins right (oh no, now the 1M guys are going to jump in...)
__________________
Current : 2020 F92 Black Sapphire M8 - ZF8
Gone : 2018 F80 Mineral Gray M3 - 6MT
Gone : 2016 F82 Austin Yellow M4 - 6MT
Gone : 2013 F13 Sakhir Orange M6 -7DCT
Gone: 2013 F13 Alpine White 650i -ZF8
Appreciate 0
      05-16-2014, 05:43 PM   #21
Lups
...
Lups's Avatar
11820
Rep
15,400
Posts

Drives: I don't own a car.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lost as usual

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M6-Coupe View Post
Reading you two is actually fun. Thanks
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:09 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST