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      05-09-2014, 11:18 AM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
But I am looking forward to see what they (and the OP) say about the engines power delivery, turbo lag and throttle response. Either there is a "noticeable jerk" at around 5500rpm or there isn't... IMHO if drivers/reviewers can't feel the jerk then we don't have "noticeable jerk". But if they on the other hand comments on how acceleration drops above 5500rpm or that it has that turbo characteristic of loosing breath at high rpm, then we might have "noticeable jerk" (I don't expect journalists to use the term jerk)
I just posted this elsewhere but wanted to make sure to include it here as well

"there is certainly no final rush to the red line and the actual substance behind the last 1500rpm feels a bit thin"

The EVO review, although pretty preliminary sums up nicely what I have been saying about the engine since the second I saw the torque curve (and pretty well knew as soon as the car was confirmed as turbo charged. My predictions have been the source of some crazy debate... Putting the statement above into it's full context...

Quote:
The M4’s engine is curious. The torque and mid-range punch are not in doubt. However, BMW’s claims that it still revs like a naturally aspirated engine are open to a bit more debate. If you accelerate hard down a long straight from the mid-range and hold on until the floating rev counter in the head-up display is glowing yellow and red before flicking the right-hand paddle, then acceleration seems unabated and the noise improves. However, there is certainly no final rush to the red line and the actual substance behind the last 1500rpm feels a bit thin. Instinctively you feel like you want to change up before you even start tickling the top end, and coming out of a corner you know that you want to be in the meat of the torque rather than at the peak of the power.

It’s certainly a very different experience to the E92, where the best drives I had were when the needle seemed to be living permanently above about 6000rpm.
The 7600 rpm redline is artificial, not really needed and kind of represents a poseur-ish statement by BMW knowing the outcry when they release an engine with a redline having the first digit a 6.... or even something like 7250, which is probably all that is needed. A big part of the thrill of the S65 is gone and for me that is very unfortunate.
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      05-09-2014, 11:53 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I just posted this elsewhere but wanted to make sure to include it here as well

"there is certainly no final rush to the red line and the actual substance behind the last 1500rpm feels a bit thin"

The EVO review, although pretty preliminary sums up nicely what I have been saying about the engine since the second I saw the torque curve (and pretty well knew as soon as the car was confirmed as turbo charged. My predictions have been the source of some crazy debate... Putting the statement above into it's full context...



The 7600 rpm redline is artificial, not really needed and kind of represents a poseur-ish statement by BMW knowing the outcry when they release an engine with a redline having the first digit a 6.... or even something like 7250, which is probably all that is needed. A big part of the thrill of the S65 is gone and for me that is very unfortunate.
I wonder if the lack of excitement after 6500 has more to do with the comparative shove felt mid-range. Perhaps the car is pulling just as hard as the e92 but just more noticeable in the e92 because it was relatively gutless until then? I agree that the high rev performance isn't matching the perception of the outgoing model, but it seems like it is much better than the N54 party's over at 6000 feeling.

I don't mind short-shifting because it gives me something to do with the DCT and we will have to see some tests to see if it results in quicker acceleration. Meanwhile, I'd prefer a car with acceleration I can enjoy 98% of the time v. 2% in the old model. I can also appreciate that it may have been fun chasing that ragged edge.
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      05-09-2014, 12:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
I wonder if the lack of excitement after 6500 has more to do with the comparative shove felt mid-range. Perhaps the car is pulling just as hard as the e92 but just more noticeable in the e92 because it was relatively gutless until then? I agree that the high rev performance isn't matching the perception of the outgoing model, but it seems like it is much better than the N54 party's over at 6000 feeling.

I don't mind short-shifting because it gives me something to do with the DCT and we will have to see some tests to see if it results in quicker acceleration. Meanwhile, I'd prefer a car with acceleration I can enjoy 98% of the time v. 2% in the old model. I can also appreciate that it may have been fun chasing that ragged edge.
I completely agree. I'm sure it's pulling just as hard (if not harder considering the small delta in power and reduction in weight)
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      05-09-2014, 12:51 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I just posted this elsewhere but wanted to make sure to include it here as well

"there is certainly no final rush to the red line and the actual substance behind the last 1500rpm feels a bit thin"

The EVO review, although pretty preliminary sums up nicely what I have been saying about the engine since the second I saw the torque curve (and pretty well knew as soon as the car was confirmed as turbo charged. My predictions have been the source of some crazy debate... Putting the statement above into it's full context...



The 7600 rpm redline is artificial, not really needed and kind of represents a poseur-ish statement by BMW knowing the outcry when they release an engine with a redline having the first digit a 6.... or even something like 7250, which is probably all that is needed. A big part of the thrill of the S65 is gone and for me that is very unfortunate.
I agree that this review clearly indicates a certain "turbo character trait" over the last 1500rpm. No question about it

What's confusing is that the reviewers have such different views on the engines character though... Just like on other things with the car. It's like they drove different cars...

Like here on throttle response:

http://www.completecar.ie/testdrives...aloon/722/3636

Quote:
Throttle response increases considerably through the other modes, and it's razor sharp in Sport Plus, meaning it takes a careful right foot to maintain smooth progress at low speeds - or over bumpy surfaces.
So, they call it razor sharp while others say it's not quite razor sharp...

But back to power delivery character. To post some differing reviews on top end power, that might put the "last 1500rpm" into context:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...drive-2014-5-8

Quote:
I had hoped they would save an extra surge of power for the top end, but actually it’s pretty much the same at 5,000rpm as 7,000rpm. Which is the same as at 3,000rpm, too. It’s extremely linear and pulverisingly fast:
http://www.focus.de/auto/fahrbericht...d_3827955.html

Quote:
Sauger-Feeling trotz Turbos

Nach und nach knallt man die Gänge rein, dreht den Motor dabei ziemlich hoch – der BMW hat zwar zwei Turbolader, doch er fährt sich eigentlich nicht wie ein Turbosportler. Die Lader des hochdrehenden Reihensechsers arbeiten nicht nach dem Twinscroll-Prinzip, eine Möglichkeit zur Eliminierung des Turbolochs, aber sie stehen ständig unter Druck, so dass beim Gasgeben ohne spürbare Verzögerung die volle Power parat steht. Der M3 / M4 fährt sich eher wie ein klassischer Sauger und die volle Leistung steht bis 7300 Touren Gewehr bei Fuß. (The M3 / M4 drives more like a classic NA engine and the full power is available until 7300rpm.)

550 Newtonmeter Drehmoment fallen über die Kurbelwelle her, und das über einen breiten Drehzahlbereich. Der BMW muss nicht erst Luft holen, wenn es zur Sache gehen soll - das Reihensechszylinder-Aggregat steht ständig unter Spannung und prescht jederzeit mit voller Power los.
I also read a review that claimed the engine felt most special above 5500rpm... (can't find it now, perhaps they retracted their statements )

So, to me it's a bit confusing as we have such differing views. Some say the sound is glorious, some say it sounds like a diesel... I have read a few reviews that say there isn't a great reward taking it to the redline (while others say it is rewarding). But none that say acceleration drops off... In fact Top Gear says it's extremely linear, but that there apparently isn't an extra rush on top. Linear to me sounds different than falling off... Sure, there is no extra rush over 5500rpm, it just keeps pulling at the same pace all through the rev range according to quite a few reports.

To me, there isn't any conclusive evidence

Last edited by Boss330; 05-09-2014 at 12:57 PM..
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      05-09-2014, 02:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
What's confusing is that the reviewers have such different views on the engines character though... Just like on other things with the car. It's like they drove different cars...
They are individual opinions, subjective, and ideally so. Until you or I get our hands on one, I'll leave it to other owners and the likes of Chris Harris to decide if this car has soul. Reviews outside of that (mags/online) will be nice for car comparisons.

Besides, 80% of the reviews are a regurgitation of facts we've known on these forums for a while. Kind of boring frankly.

Anyway, I love this car so far. These are really exciting times for M enthusiasts. The worst that can happen is someone will decide to pick up or keep an E9x M3 instead
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      05-09-2014, 10:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I agree that this review clearly indicates a certain "turbo character trait" over the last 1500rpm. No question about it

What's confusing is that the reviewers have such different views on the engines character though... Just like on other things with the car. It's like they drove different cars...
...
To me, there isn't any conclusive evidence
One problem is poor butt-o-meters (i.e. human accelerometers). Human perception of acceleration although possible to be sensitive and precise is also easy to fool. Lots of acoustic noise can trick one into thinking a car is faster. Just note also the common experience most of us have has how 100 mph in a crappy chassis feels so darn fast, whereas in an M3 it can feel like coasting. That'm more about perception of speed than acceleration but a related idea
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      05-09-2014, 11:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Meanwhile, I'd prefer a car with acceleration I can enjoy 98% of the time v. 2% in the old model. I can also appreciate that it may have been fun chasing that ragged edge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringbacklsb View Post
Exactly. I prefer not to drive like a maniac to feel the sensation of speed, which I had to do with the E46, and even when I did the lack of torque feel didn't give me what I was seeking. The new turbo setup should offer more fun for most people during the vast majority of driving experiences.
I completely disagree with these propositions. The ONLY things required to make a lower CRANK torque (because the E92 M3 puts down gobs of torque at the wheels even at low rpm), high power, high redline car really scoot are; 1. the right gear, 2. Press the pedal firmly and far, 3. Produce a bit of engine and exhaust racket.

There is a distinct difference between driving like a maniac and accelerating very hard. I find that the proponents of "lazy driving" made easy by high torque engines consistently misrepresent this.

Maniac driving is driving at such high accelerations that traction is sacrificed, or driving at speeds radically above the flow of traffic or posted speed, or cornering at a constant speed near/at/above the limits of traction. Pushing the pedal to the floor in a low gear in a car with power delivery like the current M3 isn't driving like a maniac. It does however make one feel a bit like an F1 driver.

There is nothing wrong with more low and and midrange torque and power. There is nothing wrong with strong acceleration either at the wrong rpm (too low) or wrong gear. The price you pay is with with the excitement of the engine and the process.
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      05-09-2014, 11:09 PM   #8
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So, who's the bad guy today?
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      05-09-2014, 11:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
because the E92 M3 puts down gobs of torque at the wheels even at low rpm.
Since when? Sorry, but off the line...
M3 = 295tq vs 335is = 370tq with overboost

I'm really hoping the M4 feels faster at launch...
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      05-09-2014, 11:23 PM   #10
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So, who's the bad guy today?
My 11th grade physics teacher it sounds like
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      05-09-2014, 11:33 PM   #11
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My 11th grade physics teacher it sounds like
I don't know how that comes up with our school system, but I do enjoy this conversation. It seems there is one in the red line, and then there are the ones who don't have to achieve it. I could be wrong, it has almost happened before!
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      05-09-2014, 11:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Meanwhile, I'd prefer a car with acceleration I can enjoy 98% of the time v. 2% in the old model. I can also appreciate that it may have been fun chasing that ragged edge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringbacklsb View Post
Exactly. I prefer not to drive like a maniac to feel the sensation of speed, which I had to do with the E46, and even when I did the lack of torque feel didn't give me what I was seeking. The new turbo setup should offer more fun for most people during the vast majority of driving experiences.
I completely disagree with these propositions. The ONLY things required to make a lower CRANK torque (because the E92 M3 puts down gobs of torque at the wheels even at low rpm), high power, high redline car really scoot are; 1. the right gear, 2. Press the pedal firmly and far, 3. Produce a bit of engine and exhaust racket.

There is a distinct difference between driving like a maniac and accelerating very hard. I find that the proponents of "lazy driving" made easy by high torque engines consistently misrepresent this.

Maniac driving is driving at such high accelerations that traction is sacrificed, or driving at speeds radically above the flow of traffic or posted speed, or cornering at a constant speed near/at/above the limits of traction. Pushing the pedal to the floor in a low gear in a car with power delivery like the current M3 isn't driving like a maniac. It does however make one feel a bit like an F1 driver.

There is nothing wrong with more low and and midrange torque and power. There is nothing wrong with strong acceleration either at the wrong rpm (too low) or wrong gear. The price you pay is with with the excitement of the engine and the process.
The E46 M3 never gave me the sensation of acceleration that I was after. In fact, I remember driving a 3000GT VR4 with 300hp and 300 tq, twin turbo engine, and feeling the car was much faster than the M3, when it was in fact not. That feeling is one of the main sensory thrills that I seek in a high performance car, and I am confident that this new engine will provide me with what was missing in the E46, and that's the pure sensation of power and acceleration.
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      05-10-2014, 02:48 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///ADMAN View Post
Since when? Sorry, but off the line...
M3 = 295tq vs 335is = 370tq with overboost

I'm really hoping the M4 feels faster at launch...
You're quoting crank torque.. Factor in gearing and the m3 puts down a lot at the wheels.. I'm sure swamp has more concrete figures (coming from former FBO 335i owner / current e92 m3 owner)
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      05-10-2014, 04:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
One problem is poor butt-o-meters (i.e. human accelerometers). Human perception of acceleration although possible to be sensitive and precise is also easy to fool. Lots of acoustic noise can trick one into thinking a car is faster. Just note also the common experience most of us have has how 100 mph in a crappy chassis feels so darn fast, whereas in an M3 it can feel like coasting. That'm more about perception of speed than acceleration but a related idea
The point about acoustics is a very good one. BMW M mentioned this as well in one of the "in depth" series of stories. In a NA engine you have a natural escalation of sound as the engine rpm's increase. This sound enhances the perception of increasing acceleration, or the sense of acceleration/thrill. On a turbo engine much of this aural sensation is muted. This is quite possibly what we also see in the reviews, saying that the sound is flat and not natural.

But, "noticeable jerk" should be noticeable right?
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      05-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTO24 View Post
You're quoting crank torque.. Factor in gearing and the m3 puts down a lot at the wheels.. I'm sure swamp has more concrete figures (coming from former FBO 335i owner / current e92 m3 owner)

Then you should race a 335is DCT and watch him jump you off the line then.


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      05-10-2014, 01:34 PM   #16
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Same with my 1M. There was never a need to take it to redline.
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      05-10-2014, 10:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ///ADMAN View Post
Then you should race a 335is DCT and watch him jump you off the line then.


To each their own.. Enjoy your 335is, the torque is fun around town.
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      05-11-2014, 02:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bringbacklsb View Post
The E46 M3 never gave me the sensation of acceleration that I was after. In fact, I remember driving a 3000GT VR4 with 300hp and 300 tq, twin turbo engine, and feeling the car was much faster than the M3, when it was in fact not. That feeling is one of the main sensory thrills that I seek in a high performance car, and I am confident that this new engine will provide me with what was missing in the E46, and that's the pure sensation of power and acceleration.
Although not much a direct reply to my point, different strokes for different folks. Generally speaking a high crank torque turbo engine is very forgiving of being in the wrong gear when desiring maximum acceleration. Engines like the S65 can be significantly less fun if simply unwilling to choose the best gear when you want maximum acceleration and equally are less fun if unwilling to take the tach needle near or into the yellow or red. Again there is nothing that makes doing so inherently driving like a "maniac".
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      05-11-2014, 02:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTO24 View Post
You're quoting crank torque.. Factor in gearing and the m3 puts down a lot at the wheels.. I'm sure swamp has more concrete figures (coming from former FBO 335i owner / current e92 m3 owner)
Precisely. No one can feel any element of engine crank torque whatsoever. One feels acceleration which is the result of force/torque at the wheels, which in turn is crank torque multiplied by transmission gear ratio multiplied by final drive ratio. One example:

C6 Corvette, 400 hp x 1st gear ratio (6MT) 2.66 x final drive (std) = 2904 ft lb
M3 M-DCT 295 ft lb x 4.78 x 3.15 = 4447 ft lb.

Now this is just one gear and peak values, but should get the point across. The M3 makes way more peak wheel torque in 1st gear than the C6 Vette.

Now that being said, given the right gearing more crank torque can also translate to more wheel torque and with the M4 it has gobs more crank torque and gobs more wheel torque as well.
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      05-11-2014, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
WTF are you talking about??

I very rarely post the same post in multiple threads. I have once in perhaps the last 6 months since the exact same topic of discussion had spread to two different threads. I have not started my own thread in this section for a very long time. Get your facts stright/
Don't get your panties in a wad. You posted the exact same thing in 3 (maybe 2, ok 2) other threads.

So happy you're happy.

Yeah, I got my facts straight

Last edited by Jockey; 05-11-2014 at 03:05 PM..
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      05-11-2014, 07:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

C6 Corvette, 400 hp x 1st gear ratio (6MT) 2.66 x final drive (std) = 2904 ft lb
M3 M-DCT 295 ft lb x 4.78 x 3.15 = 4447 ft lb.
Thank you for posting actual numbers… but you're not going to get through to many people with something as crazy as logic.

The problem with the s55, if it softens up above 5500 rpm, which I'm afraid it may, is that it's not a very special engine.

There are plenty of motors with good midrange that go soft in the higher revs. There are very few motors that make high rev power the way the s65 does.
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      05-11-2014, 09:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Precisely. No one can feel any element of engine crank torque whatsoever. One feels acceleration which is the result of force/torque at the wheels, which in turn is crank torque multiplied by transmission gear ratio multiplied by final drive ratio. One example:

C6 Corvette, 400 hp x 1st gear ratio (6MT) 2.66 x final drive (std) = 2904 ft lb
M3 M-DCT 295 ft lb x 4.78 x 3.15 = 4447 ft lb.

Now this is just one gear and peak values, but should get the point across. The M3 makes way more peak wheel torque in 1st gear than the C6 Vette.
C6/base/LS3 numbers:
428 ft lb * 2.66 (1st) * 3.42 (final) = 3893 ft lb

C6/Z51/LS3 numbers:
428 ft lb * 2.97 (1st) * 3.42 (final) = 4347 ft lb

So M3 is a little higher in 1st, not way higher.
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