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      03-04-2014, 06:31 PM   #1
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2013 E92 M3 vs M4

Going back and forth about a 2013 M3 and taking a spot-second in line M4.
Some pretty good deals on left over M3's and low mileage M3's. Understand there is a big difference between the two. I have always stayed away from first year models as they are not tried yet.

Any input either way appreciated.
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      03-04-2014, 07:24 PM   #2
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I think it's pretty well established that the new car will significantly outperform the old car in every way. The only things up for debate are the sound (purely subjective) and whether the steering feel will be as good as BMW is claiming.
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      03-04-2014, 10:46 PM   #3
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I think you are sensible to wait because the performance of the car is untested (except on paper) and , given all the new engineering installed, the reliability of the car is going to remain an open question for a while. Beyond that, is the premium price you're going to have to pay for it.
You would think this level of performance uncertainty would inspire caution among buyers; but, the exact opposite seems to be occurring. Customers are , evidently, standing in line willing to pay the MSRP or better demanded by the dealer. The market for this car appears to now be in an excited, almost frenzied, state and the prices reflect that.
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      03-05-2014, 07:02 AM   #4
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I agree that the frenzy is there. I'm taking a step back and looking at the computer generated exhaust note, questionable lack of driver interaction with all the electronics, bloated size and consider if I should get a good deal on a 2013 M3 either new or used.

It appears that BMW is going the way Porsche has, making their cars bigger, more lux-mobiles, to much electronics, less driver interaction all of which takes away the sportiness of the car the way it was meant to be in favor of having the car drive you instead of you driving the car.
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      03-05-2014, 07:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuddman View Post
I think you are sensible to wait because the performance of the car is untested (except on paper) and , given all the new engineering installed, the reliability of the car is going to remain an open question for a while. Beyond that, is the premium price you're going to have to pay for it.
You would think this level of performance uncertainty would inspire caution among buyers; but, the exact opposite seems to be occurring. Customers are , evidently, standing in line willing to pay the MSRP or better demanded by the dealer. The market for this car appears to now be in an excited, almost frenzied, state and the prices reflect that.
no reasonable person would doubt the performance increase over the outgoing model.

the only question is do you want to spend the money.

it is a much nicer car than my e9x and the performance will blow it away despite being more efficient. I sat in one in person at the Houston auto show.

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Originally Posted by pepper1 View Post
I agree that the frenzy is there. I'm taking a step back and looking at the computer generated exhaust note, questionable lack of driver interaction with all the electronics, bloated size and consider if I should get a good deal on a 2013 M3 either new or used.

It appears that BMW is going the way Porsche has, making their cars bigger, more lux-mobiles, to much electronics, less driver interaction all of which takes away the sportiness of the car the way it was meant to be in favor of having the car drive you instead of you driving the car.
sounds like you might need to do some more research on the f8x. it is barely longer than the outgoing car, and it is substantially lighter.

there is no "computer generated exhaust note". it is an amplification of the actual engine sounds. not a fake sound, or a pre-recorded sound.

On the topic of Porsches, I have owned a 997 and driven the 991, and the 991 is a much better car in basically every single way. It destroys it in performance, build quality, ride comfort and the steering feel is fantastic. Its an amazing chassis and car. I drove a 2S and it was worlds better than my 997tt. I don't know what you mean by "the car drives for you", but maybe you should get back into a 991 and re-check that hypothesis. It does whatever you want and still requires a hell of a driver to get the best out of it.

The e9x is far from a raw sports car, and the new m3 has more sports car oriented suspension and braking tech than the e9x does anyway. Direct solid mount subframe (no bushings, like a race car), bigger brake kit, much less weight, higher tech differential, stiffer suspension structure, new gen of adaptive "active" suspension (a la PASM).
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      03-05-2014, 08:29 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
no reasonable person would doubt the performance increase over the outgoing model.

the only question is do you want to spend the money.

it is a much nicer car than my e9x and the performance will blow it away despite being more efficient. I sat in one in person at the Houston auto show.



sounds like you might need to do some more research on the f8x. it is barely longer than the outgoing car, and it is substantially lighter.

there is no "computer generated exhaust note". it is an amplification of the actual engine sounds. not a fake sound, or a pre-recorded sound.

On the topic of Porsches, I have owned a 997 and driven the 991, and the 991 is a much better car in basically every single way. It destroys it in performance, build quality, ride comfort and the steering feel is fantastic. Its an amazing chassis and car. I drove a 2S and it was worlds better than my 997tt. I don't know what you mean by "the car drives for you", but maybe you should get back into a 991 and re-check that hypothesis. It does whatever you want and still requires a hell of a driver to get the best out of it.

The e9x is far from a raw sports car, and the new m3 has more sports car oriented suspension and braking tech than the e9x does anyway. Direct solid mount subframe (no bushings, like a race car), bigger brake kit, much less weight, higher tech differential, stiffer suspension structure, new gen of adaptive "active" suspension (a la PASM).
Kenny beat me to it.. Exactly correct.
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      03-05-2014, 10:23 AM   #7
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One other thought for the hopper. If you wait a year or two and let the car get wrung out by the public, so to speak, then decide to jump in, the chances are you'll be getting a much better price break. Sort of like what's going on now with the M5.
And think of this, with the money you save, you'll be able to purchase an individual color.
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      03-05-2014, 06:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
no reasonable person would doubt the performance increase over the outgoing model.

the only question is do you want to spend the money.

it is a much nicer car than my e9x and the performance will blow it away despite being more efficient. I sat in one in person at the Houston auto show.



sounds like you might need to do some more research on the f8x. it is barely longer than the outgoing car, and it is substantially lighter.

there is no "computer generated exhaust note". it is an amplification of the actual engine sounds. not a fake sound, or a pre-recorded sound.

On the topic of Porsches, I have owned a 997 and driven the 991, and the 991 is a much better car in basically every single way. It destroys it in performance, build quality, ride comfort and the steering feel is fantastic. Its an amazing chassis and car. I drove a 2S and it was worlds better than my 997tt. I don't know what you mean by "the car drives for you", but maybe you should get back into a 991 and re-check that hypothesis. It does whatever you want and still requires a hell of a driver to get the best out of it.

The e9x is far from a raw sports car, and the new m3 has more sports car oriented suspension and braking tech than the e9x does anyway. Direct solid mount subframe (no bushings, like a race car), bigger brake kit, much less weight, higher tech differential, stiffer suspension structure, new gen of adaptive "active" suspension (a la PASM).
Well said and I agree with your points, but there are a few additional factors for OP to consider.

If you are intending to modify your vehicle, it can be worthwhile to wait to buy a new model until sufficient aftermarket parts are developed, tested, and distributed throughout the market. Likely at least until the end of the year, and perhaps much longer, an E92 M3 has proven available performance modifications on the market which will allow it to exceed the performance of the factory F8X. When it is considered that many believe that new complexities in BMW's software will prevent meaningful tuning gains for quite some time, it may make sense to wait. This is only applicable to those who value performance highly, however.

There is also styling and options to think about. Unless you happen to particularly like one of the standard factory color options, you are very restricted in the selections for the F8X. When you add in the paucity of factory allocations available (approx. 1-2 per month per dealership), it will likely be a LONG time until Individual can offer any sort of meaningful customization for those who prefer a more bespoke option.

As shown by the E46 and E9X, the widespread approval and production of Individual builds tends to coalesce at the end of the production line. For that reason, you can find beautiful and pristine Individual colored E9X models, even those which were ordered and never sold, available on the market. While it is certainly not as rewarding as ordering your own, it could at least give you more options.

Additionally, there are other subsidiary issues to consider. For example, incandescent turn signal bulbs on a 2015 MY vehicle is an absolute disgrace. There will be a subsequent LCI refresh which will fix these issues and provide other improvements; based on the experience with the E46 and E9X, these improvements may be worth waiting for. (If present trends continue, this refresh will occur for MY 2018.)

Only you can decide what you value most. Personally, I just took delivery of my Individual E92 late last year, as one of the last orders placed from the factory. I absolutely love this car, and will be keeping it at least until the above-mentioned circumstances are present.
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      03-05-2014, 08:37 PM   #9
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Thanks for all the great comments. Leaning towards a 2013 and waiting to see what the M4 turns out to be like. At the moment it's mostly articles and pictures. I'd like to see it etc before purchasing. Bought a car sight unseen before and was not thrilled. May be better to wait until the bugs are worked out. But on paper looks nice. At the rate of production it could be a while anyway. Again thanks to all.
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      03-06-2014, 11:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepper1 View Post
Thanks for all the great comments. Leaning towards a 2013 and waiting to see what the M4 turns out to be like. At the moment it's mostly articles and pictures. I'd like to see it etc before purchasing. Bought a car sight unseen before and was not thrilled. May be better to wait until the bugs are worked out. But on paper looks nice. At the rate of production it could be a while anyway. Again thanks to all.
I'll say one thing. It's hard to beat the throttle response and sound associated with a normally aspirated, high-revving V8 engine.

Turbos = more power and torque, sure. But there is something special about the character of a NA V8. Especially now that almost all of the NA V8s are extinct (in both street cars and now F1 cars).

I can feel the engine pulsating under the hood of my C63 when I'm idling in traffic. It's a wonderful feeling indeed.
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      03-15-2014, 11:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepper1 View Post
Going back and forth about a 2013 M3 and taking a spot-second in line M4.
Some pretty good deals on left over M3's and low mileage M3's. Understand there is a big difference between the two. I have always stayed away from first year models as they are not tried yet.

Any input either way appreciated.
there are a lot of good praises to the M4 already. I too may wait until the 1st year as the 1st yr is usually a trial period of adjustments. Imagine, if they release the next version of the M4 with 450 hp !
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      03-15-2014, 01:59 PM   #12
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Well for one thing I won't miss the average 16 mpg...
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      03-15-2014, 03:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepper1 View Post
Going back and forth about a 2013 M3 and taking a spot-second in line M4.
Some pretty good deals on left over M3's and low mileage M3's. Understand there is a big difference between the two. I have always stayed away from first year models as they are not tried yet.

Any input either way appreciated.
I was in the same boat as you until this morning. I would consider myself an enthusiast and have been interested in owning an E92 V8 M since 2008. The S65 is a masterpiece; I think the NA high revving V8 speaks for itself. However, this morning I finally concluded that I will be moving into the F82.

There is absolutely no way I will ever prefer the new motor to the old motor (even having never owned the car), however, I have accepted where the industry is going. If Formula 1 is going the same route, maybe it was time I stepped off my "enthusiast pedestal" and was more open to the beneficial change.

Lastly, if you are anything like I am, I always feel the need to keep up with the times and it was hard to pass up on the F82, regardless of how long I've desired to be in an E92.

Good luck with your choice, I'm sure you won't regret getting into either of them.
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      03-15-2014, 05:15 PM   #14
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Keep in mind, even a 2013 M3 has an interior that is a 9 year old design.
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      03-17-2014, 01:11 AM   #15
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I faced the same decision.

Before my E92 M3 ZCP DCT, I had a 2012 335is. My original plan was to keep the 335is for two years then buy the new M4 coupe. When I learned that the M4 was to have an I-6 with multiple turbo chargers, I changed my mind - I had an I-6 with multiple turbo chargers and I really disliked its throttle response - even after adding Dinan software to improve the car's power curve.

The explosive nature of the the way the power came on line made it difficult to accurately dial the back-end out. The turbo-lag, as minimal as it was, still meant that, when cornering, I had to push the accelerator down before I actually needed the power and guess how much I needed.

I don't think that the new M4 will somehow be different than all other high performance turbo motors, i.e. turbo lag (I had to count potatoes in my 335is and it was better than the E93 335i that I had before it), non-linear throttle response, cooling issues and limp mode, limited RPM due to turbos reaching their max RPM and wastegate failures (BMW lost a class action suit on that one).
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      03-17-2014, 08:34 AM   #16
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I faced the same decision.

Before my E92 M3 ZCP DCT, I had a 2012 335is. My original plan was to keep the 335is for two years then buy the new M4 coupe. When I learned that the M4 was to have an I-6 with multiple turbo chargers, I changed my mind - I had an I-6 with multiple turbo chargers and I really disliked its throttle response - even after adding Dinan software to improve the car's power curve.

The explosive nature of the the way the power came on line made it difficult to accurately dial the back-end out. The turbo-lag, as minimal as it was, still meant that, when cornering, I had to push the accelerator down before I actually needed the power and guess how much I needed.

I don't think that the new M4 will somehow be different than all other high performance turbo motors, i.e. turbo lag (I had to count potatoes in my 335is and it was better than the E93 335i that I had before it), non-linear throttle response, cooling issues and limp mode, limited RPM due to turbos reaching their max RPM and wastegate failures (BMW lost a class action suit on that one).
I have a 2013 335is and appreciate the thoughts on throttle response. I have a Cobb tune but the turbo lag still is present. I have to allow for "two potatoes" before the power hits. I have other had other turbo cars but no delay compared to the 335is. Don't get me wrong, the car is great but should have went straight to an M3 instead.

I've looked for new M3's knowing that it would be a fruitless venture this late into it. Ones available are marked up quite a bit. Subsequently looked at used M3's with few miles.

Can be first and second in line for the M4 at area dealers as well as getting their launch M4 as they are not yet sold. The dealer I have bought three cars from is being difficult to work with as they will do ED for MSRP. So much for treating your loyal customers right.

All in all the combination of many factors is giving pause about BMW and those loyal to their brand and their long time customers. But they are a business and probably could give a rats ass in the end.
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      03-19-2014, 11:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
no reasonable person would doubt the performance increase over the outgoing model.

the only question is do you want to spend the money.

it is a much nicer car than my e9x and the performance will blow it away despite being more efficient. I sat in one in person at the Houston auto show.



sounds like you might need to do some more research on the f8x. it is barely longer than the outgoing car, and it is substantially lighter.

there is no "computer generated exhaust note". it is an amplification of the actual engine sounds. not a fake sound, or a pre-recorded sound.

On the topic of Porsches, I have owned a 997 and driven the 991, and the 991 is a much better car in basically every single way. It destroys it in performance, build quality, ride comfort and the steering feel is fantastic. Its an amazing chassis and car. I drove a 2S and it was worlds better than my 997tt. I don't know what you mean by "the car drives for you", but maybe you should get back into a 991 and re-check that hypothesis. It does whatever you want and still requires a hell of a driver to get the best out of it.

The e9x is far from a raw sports car, and the new m3 has more sports car oriented suspension and braking tech than the e9x does anyway. Direct solid mount subframe (no bushings, like a race car), bigger brake kit, much less weight, higher tech differential, stiffer suspension structure, new gen of adaptive "active" suspension (a la PASM).
How much does the M4 actually weigh?

I didn't find the unladen weight of 3,704 lbs in the manual to be too informative as to what my E92 M3 DCT ZCP actually weighs. So, I took my car down to the digital truck scales to be weighed. With a quarter tank of BP 93 octane fuel, the car weighed 3,499 lbs.

My car is a carbon fiber roofed DCT ZCP car with every option but Automatic High Beams. For clarification, I was not in the car when it was weighed. I wanted to know what the car itself weighed - so adjusting for the fuel onboard, the car weighs 3,476 with oil and trapped fluids.

I have read that BMW had a 3,300 lb target for the M4, did they make it?
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      03-20-2014, 09:24 AM   #18
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Go test drive an M5 and see how the new turbo engines work before you make such statements. When I drove the M5, my mind changed completely. It's a completely different animal. There is so much RPM lag in M3, after driving the M5, driving my car was a joke. I was like WTF is this, it goes like a camry. There is just so much power and torque in the new cars, you forget about the whole naturally aspirated argument in a second.
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      03-20-2014, 10:07 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
Go test drive an M5 and see how the new turbo engines work before you make such statements. When I drove the M5, my mind changed completely. It's a completely different animal. There is so much RPM lag in M3, after driving the M5, driving my car was a joke. I was like WTF is this, it goes like a camry. There is just so much power and torque in the new cars, you forget about the whole naturally aspirated argument in a second.
RPM lag, eh?
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Originally Posted by pepper1 View Post
I have a 2013 335is and appreciate the thoughts on throttle response. I have a Cobb tune but the turbo lag still is present. I have to allow for "two potatoes" before the power hits. I have other had other turbo cars but no delay compared to the 335is. Don't get me wrong, the car is great but should have went straight to an M3 instead.

I've looked for new M3's knowing that it would be a fruitless venture this late into it. Ones available are marked up quite a bit. Subsequently looked at used M3's with few miles..
Strange how so few owners and enthusiasts admit this. The boost threshold is high and the lag is nontrivial. Enough that you either like turbo engines or you don't. Yet still, every journalist and "enthusiast" boasts that the N55 has "virtually no" turbo lag.. please..
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      03-20-2014, 06:07 PM   #20
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RPM lag, eh?

Strange how so few owners and enthusiasts admit this. The boost threshold is high and the lag is nontrivial. Enough that you either like turbo engines or you don't. Yet still, every journalist and "enthusiast" boasts that the N55 has "virtually no" turbo lag.. please..
You don't know what you are talking about.

There is absolutely no perceptible lag in M5 in sport+ mode. If I want to nit pick, I can maybe sense less than half a second of lag, but that's about it. I am talking about extreme scenarios as well, downshifting, gas/brake/gas/brake, and so on. On the other hand, in S63, you have MASSIVE rpm lag, it takes several seconds to reach to the top torque rpm band. Who cares if you have instantaneous throttle response but can only utilize 150 ft/lb of torque for 3 seconds and can only get the maximum 295 then? Do you have any idea how hard an M5 pulls when you try to redline it? That thing will stop oxygen from going to your brain, it feels like a plane making a steep takeoff. The old M3 feels like a joke after driving one.

Now, I'm not saying the new M3/M4 will be the same, but it will be possibly close and similar. Trust me, you won't look back after driving one.
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      03-20-2014, 08:05 PM   #21
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I'm probably a bit overboard in terms of the way a car feels and noticing small intricacies. Nonetheless, the N55 demonstrates noticeable turbo lag if you are below 2k rpm. However, punching it from higher in the power band is where there is "virtually no lag" present from my experience.
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