[sg335]

I never ran the car at a road course with the stock suspension. Does anyone have any track lap times pre and post coilover or suspension mod? It would be interesting to see if the car is really faster or just "feels" faster because there is less body roll. I recently drove a stock E92 at Buttonwillow and it felt great.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by sg335

I never ran the car at a road course with the stock suspension. Does anyone have any track lap times pre and post coilover or suspension mod? It would be interesting to see if the car is really faster or just "feels" faster because there is less body roll. I recently drove a stock E92 at Buttonwillow and it felt great.

i dont have proof, but a car on coilovers lowered an inch and a half will handle better, therefore produce a better laptime over the same lap on the same day, in the same session with the same driver

Carlos

[leftcoastman]

I'd be curious to see the proof also. Perhaps the stock suspension is so well tuned that screwing with it will increase lap times.

Marketing pitches and reality are sometimes two very different things.

My experience is that with my rear swaybar change, I shave about a second off my lap times. I lose time on corner exit because I have to wait longer before getting on throttle, but I make up for it with higher corner entry and apex speeds.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

I'd be curious to see the proof also. Perhaps the stock suspension is so well tuned that screwing with it will increase lap times.

Marketing pitches and reality are sometimes two very different things.

My experience is that with my rear swaybar change, I shave about a second off my lap times. I lose time on corner exit because I have to wait longer before getting on throttle, but I make up for it with higher corner entry and apex speeds.

firstly you need to be either god or a racing driver to get consistently quick laps constantly, so therefore dont mod your car untill your fantastic, but who on earth does that... even if the car isnt set up properly it will give the driver more confidence in his machine (as it will feel taughter) and therefore lower lap times

[Chowbow]

I was just wondering the same thing...

I put on the Bilsteins and Eibachs, and I'm not sure if I'm just getting used to it, or if my car handles worse now, but on one of my regular drives, the tires started to complain even though I didn't "feel" like I was pushing it as hard. By that I mean that the g-force feeling was not as strong. Maybe I'm getting used to the car? Maybe it's actually handling worse? Maybe with less body lean I don't have as much of that sensation? Speeds still seem to be high, but definitely not definitive. Wow, how indefinite...

[Don Nguyen]

You'd be surprised at how far a good driver can get a stock car to go, before needing to upgrade suspension.

Suspension is always a nice thing to have though, since of course, it does add to the handling and looks of the car.

-Don

[sg335]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

firstly you need to be either god or a racing driver to get consistently quick laps constantly, so therefore dont mod your car untill your fantastic, but who on earth does that... even if the car isnt set up properly it will give the driver more confidence in his machine (as it will feel taughter) and therefore lower lap times

Maybe, maybe not. I would agree that a firmer suspension may feel more confidence inspiring to some, but the stiffness may scare some as well. In theory, one would think this to be correct. But I would like to see facts to prove the theory. I can run multiple laps back to back within .5 seconds at any road course. As you suggested, you need to due this study with the same driver, same day, same tires/wheels, same power, etc. with only the shock/spring being the variable (both must either have or not have the same sway bars). I can tell you from experience that a poorly designed coilover system made and tuned more for low ride height and street comfort will not always drive better or faster than a good stock set up. My original comment is based on the fact that the stock sport suspension, once you remove the run flat tires and put on a good street tire like the PS2 or a race tire like the Nitto NT-01 (both of which I have run), the car performs at least on the street significantly better in all respects. I just wish I got some base line numbers at the track with the stock set up before my mods. I don't like the stock fender gap, but if it was faster at the track, the 4x4 look would be ok with me.

[S4to335]

It all depends on the coilover installed..but I am gonna say my first run on the track totally stock..to my run at Sears Point with coilovers/non-staggered set-up/R compounds/lighter wheels/exhaust...was WAY different than stock. I think just swapping out the suspension should be about 1-1.5 seconds a lap on a 2 mile course..and 2+ on a 3 mile course. My car in stock form pushed so badly I was really dying to change suspension asap.

[shimshimhada]

On the Summit Point -Shenandoah Circuit, which is a 2.2 mile track that is VERY technical (some people call it an extended autocross)...I ran 1:51 on stock suspension. With my TCKline S/A Coilovers, I ran 1:45 consistently, with room for improvement.

[2e9x's]

I suspect there is a spectrum of drivers for whom the answer to this question would vary. A long, long time ago I was talking to one of my instructors about modifying my car. He asked me if I was getting 100% out of the car 100% of the time. If not, then there was no point to making the car faster.

I think that was a valid point...For many non-professional drivers the main thing holding their lap times back is them, not the car. So suspension mods might well lower my lap times because they would make me more comfortable pushing harder. But I bet that improving my driving would have the same effect.

[sg335]

Well there is some data I was looking for. Thanks. Other experiences would be appreciated as well.

As for mods for less experienced drivers, I would agree with that instructor's comments. Explore the stock suspension's limits and work on being a better driver first, then make the mods when you have exceeded the car's capabilities. It is always fun to see a bone stock car passing a modified one at the track

[2e9x's]

Originally Posted by sg335

Well there is some data I was looking for. Thanks. Other experiences would be appreciated as well.

As for mods for less experienced drivers, I would agree with that instructor's comments. Explore the stock suspension's limits and work on being a better driver first, then make the mods when you have exceeded the car's capabilities. It is always fun to see a bone stock car passing a modified one at the track

I had some fun with that at the BMWCCA School at WSIR recently. I was in a stock 07 Civic Si and passed a guy in a modified e46 M3. At lunch, he BEGGED me to tell him my car was modified...I actually felt kinda bad truth be told. The dude was crushed.

[sg335]

Originally Posted by White05X3

I had some fun with that at the BMWCCA School at WSIR recently. I was in a stock 07 Civic Si and passed a guy in a modified e46 M3. At lunch, he BEGGED me to tell him my car was modified...I actually felt kinda bad truth be told. The dude was crushed.

Classic

[shimshimhada]

I completely disagree with keeping cars stock (especially those silly CCA instructors). Mod the car, not the driver. kthxbye

[judec]

Originally Posted by shimshimhada

I completely disagree with keeping cars stock (especially those silly CCA instructors). Mod the car, not the driver. kthxbye

but I disagree.

Mod the car, TEACH the driver!

[Hegemony]

I agree with the instructors who say "don't mod the car" on two points.

1) Hoosiers. Hoosiers and other slick R compounds with only one or two vertical tread lines don't squeal when you're getting close to the edge of grip. It's an easy place for a new driver to feel confident, have his car fly out from under him, wonder what happened and possibly never learn why.

2) If you're goal is to be a good track driver, you're choosing between track time and mods and you choose mods: you've chosen wrong.

As long as you fully understand what the mod is going to do to your car before you do it and you feel like you need that adjustment based upon experience driving your car, then you're making an informed decision and it doesn't matter if you figured that out in 10 hours or 10 minutes of seat time.

Generally, they're right in saying that you shouldn't mod the car until you've had 'X' number of events or 'Y' amount of seat time, but that generalization may or may not be true for you specifically. Will it hurt you to follow their advice? No. It may end up costing you less, and worse case it's going to reinforce what you already feel you need to do to the car.

[davig]

Originally Posted by shimshimhada

On the Summit Point -Shenandoah Circuit, which is a 2.2 mile track that is VERY technical (some people call it an extended autocross)...I ran 1:51 on stock suspension. With my TCKline S/A Coilovers, I ran 1:45 consistently, with room for improvement.

That's a huge difference. I have no baseline for my 335 but on my RX8 I shaved slightly less than 2 seconds(from 1:38) on a relatively non technical course after installing coilovers.
After you think you've gone as far as you can on stock, the rule of thumb for faster lap times is first brakes, because carrying speed further means less time, and then suspension.

[roy@gambitmotorsport]

Originally Posted by Hegemony

As long as you fully understand what the mod is going to do to your car before you do it and you feel like you need that adjustment based upon experience driving your car, then you're making an informed decision and it doesn't matter if you figured that out in 10 hours or 10 minutes of seat time.

Definitely.

For example, the M-series (on all BMWs) have more equal thickness sway bars and rotate more easily on the corners. A driver just learning the 335i/e92 can take corners at (near) crazy speeds and the traction control will help scrub speed until something reasonable can be accomplished, while maintaining a straight line.

Firming up things will probably help with auto-x, but how about on long sweepers; and is the greater possibility of a spin worth it? It is, if you weighed the benefits/drawbacks of the changes beforehand. It is not, if you modded not based on experience.

[j28s]

First, you asking for lap times for pre and post coilovers. Valid question. Post coilovers are going to be faster, but for who? Every driver is different. You can't compare yourself have a stock suspension to someone else having a modified suspension...your lap times could be faster. For the most part (depending on the track) you'll see on average 2 seconds faster. Get a set of competition tires (compared to stock) another 2 seconds (average). So you could see yourself going 4 seconds a lap faster. Get a well experienced driver that is very familiar with the track in the same car (stock) and that person may do 5 seconds faster with OEM tires/suspension.

I agree with not modifying the car right away. I instruct for just about every car club and race school. I've seen guys (1st time at track) come with a highly modified car and haul butt down the straight...comes to a turn and they slow down so much I could get out any walk around the turn faster. The best way to learn to drive fast is to drive slow. When you are in a slower car you figure out how to have faster lap times (late braking, clipping apex, slow in fast out, blah blah blah). So you get the experience needed. Mod the car and you would be faster than if you modified the car to begin with. I've driven anything from SSC civics (SCCA class) to GT-1 and SPO Vipers (also SCCA classes). Granted 850 HP to the wheels is fun, but you're fighting the car tooth and nail, and everything is so much quicker. You can make a mistake in a second that can have some pretty serious repercussions. In the Civic, you make a mistake, it's pretty easy to get it back together. All in all, get as much seat time as you can and if you still want to mod the car...then do it. I would first do suspension over more power. Good luck and make sure you have fun.

[j28s]

Oh...one other thing. Anyone notice the speed limiter kicking in at 148 mph? I have the sport package, but everything i hit 148...it's as if the traction control is on and I'm spinning the tires...drops power down to about 140'ish mph. (note: done on race track...not illegally on public roads)

[stressdoc]

I also think it's worthwhile to spend some time racing on different surfaces, i.e., dirt and winter.

Some mods improve the 'feel', the feedback information, that allows for a faster learning curve.

[davig]

Originally Posted by j28s

First, you asking for lap times for pre and post coilovers. Valid question. Post coilovers are going to be faster, but for who? Every driver is different. You can't compare yourself have a stock suspension to someone else having a modified suspension...your lap times could be faster. For the most part (depending on the track) you'll see on average 2 seconds faster. Get a set of competition tires (compared to stock) another 2 seconds (average). So you could see yourself going 4 seconds a lap faster. Get a well experienced driver that is very familiar with the track in the same car (stock) and that person may do 5 seconds faster with OEM tires/suspension.

I agree with not modifying the car right away. I instruct for just about every car club and race school. I've seen guys (1st time at track) come with a highly modified car and haul butt down the straight...comes to a turn and they slow down so much I could get out any walk around the turn faster. The best way to learn to drive fast is to drive slow. When you are in a slower car you figure out how to have faster lap times (late braking, clipping apex, slow in fast out, blah blah blah). So you get the experience needed. Mod the car and you would be faster than if you modified the car to begin with. I've driven anything from SSC civics (SCCA class) to GT-1 and SPO Vipers (also SCCA classes). Granted 850 HP to the wheels is fun, but you're fighting the car tooth and nail, and everything is so much quicker. You can make a mistake in a second that can have some pretty serious repercussions. In the Civic, you make a mistake, it's pretty easy to get it back together. All in all, get as much seat time as you can and if you still want to mod the car...then do it. I would first do suspension over more power. Good luck and make sure you have fun.

Great post