BMW Electronic turbocharger patent 2011 and F80 M4 "pre tensioned" technology

[saxonb]

Is it the same thing? I was expecting a turbo package with more bulk in it compared to the pictures I have seen of the F80 M4 turbos.

Here's the original post and image about the patent: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=597327

[saxonb]

Here's the image:

[Boss330]

There are front view images as well (@ http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892746).

It's clear from the images that there seems to be no electric aid.

[rochardhughes]

Although turbochargers by definition operate on exhaust gases. So the electric motor is a supercharger. find this

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by rochardhughes

Although turbochargers by definition operate on exhaust gases. So the electric motor is a supercharger.

Yes by definition it would be an electrokinetic supercharged turbocharger. It's really hybrid technology.

[JoeFromPA]

I thought that the pre-tensioned turbines were really just turbines that were somehow kept spinning at relatively high speeds even when off-throttle or on light-throttle through a different management of the exhaust gases during those situations (i.e. turbines are kept spinning faster but pressure is vented to prevent boost build-up in more situations)

I'm not saying I knew how BMW accomplished this supposed task, I'm just saying my interpretation of their statements seemed to indicate they are doing something different to pre-spool

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I thought that the pre-tensioned turbines were really just turbines that were somehow kept spinning at relatively high speeds even when off-throttle or on light-throttle through a different management of the exhaust gases during those situations (i.e. turbines are kept spinning faster but pressure is vented to prevent boost build-up in more situations)

I'm not saying I knew how BMW accomplished this supposed task, I'm just saying my interpretation of their statements seemed to indicate they are doing something different to pre-spool

Yes I believe that BMW modulates the waste gate to preserve momentum as much as possible off throttle, ready for throttle application. BMW also now, for the first time on an M engine, uses valvetronic throttleless technology. This I would presume enables even greater control of off/on throttle transitions.


The patent concept however is something completely different.

Here's Mercedes 2014 Formula One - Hybrid Turbo V6 Engine. Mercedes employs an electrokinetic turbo in the same way as the BMW patent concept.

I can't wait to have this on my M car.

[dab_of_oppo]

I cant see this tech being cheap enough to put into these cars without raising the price substantially. My vote goes to increased flow efficiency/ some sort of wastegate management to keep blades spinning. Somehow keep the pressure up in the exhaust manifold while off throttle.

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by dab_of_oppo

I cant see this tech being cheap enough to put into these cars without raising the price substantially. My vote goes to increased flow efficiency/ some sort of wastegate management to keep blades spinning. Somehow keep the pressure up in the exhaust manifold while off throttle.

Formula 1 technology is where just about every innovation in engine and automotive performance is developed.

Come to think about it, I can't think of any currently used formula 1 technology that is not implemented in modern performance cars:

Active aero - MacLaren P1/MP4-12c, Ferrari LaFerrari/458 Speciale/F12, Porsche 991 GT3
Carbon fibre - F40, E46/92 & F80 M3/M4, and you name it
Hybrid drive trains - MacLaren P1, Ferrari Lafferari
Computer controlled clutch/differential/suspension/engine: Too many specific examples

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by saxonb

Formula 1 technology is where just about every innovation in engine and automotive performance is developed.

Come to think about it, I can't think of any currently used formula 1 technology that is not implemented in modern performance cars:

Active aero - MacLaren P1/MP4-12c, Ferrari LaFerrari/458 Speciale/612, Porsche 991 GT3
Carbon fibre - F40, E46/92 & F80 M3/M4, and you name it
Hybrid drive trains - MacLaren P1, Ferrari Lafferari
Computer controlled clutch/differential/suspension/engine: Too many specific examples

Pneumatic valves and barrel throttle bodies are two F1 technologies not used in performance cars. Hybrid technology was not first developed in F1, but F1 adopted this tech.

Computer controlled suspension (active suspension) is illegal in F1.

However I agree that racing is a good testing and development area for manufacturers, but today mostly used for marketing purposes...

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Pneumatic valves and barrel throttle bodies are two F1 technologies not used in performance cars. Hybrid technology was not first developed in F1, but F1 adopted this tech.

Computer controlled suspension (active suspension) is illegal in F1.

However I agree that racing is a good testing and development area for manufacturers, but today mostly used for marketing purposes...

Yes a notable exception is pneumatic valves.

The William's F15 C in 1992 did have electronic/active suspension: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_FW15C

As the car that won both the drivers' and constructors' championships in the last season before the FIA banned electronic driver aids, the FW15C has a decent claim to be the most technologically sophisticated Formula One car of all time, incorporating anti-lock brakes, traction control and active suspension.[2]

Orthogonal to the point of formula 1 research and development driving performance automotive engineering, I would say this: technology continually improves. This means that the cost of all production will fall over the long term. If there was some sort of empirical evidence or theoretical proposition to argue that hybrid turbo systems are a flawed and fatally uneconomical, then I am not aware of it.

A 500g flywheel at 20,000rpm could be very powerful by my estimate.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by saxonb

Yes a notable exception is pneumatic valves.

The William's F15 C in 1992 did have electronic/active suspension: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_FW15C



Orthogonal to the point of formula 1 research and development driving performance automotive engineering, I would say this: technology continually improves. This means that the cost of all production will fall over the long term. If there was some sort of empirical evidence or theoretical proposition to argue that hybrid turbo systems are a flawed and fatally uneconomical, then I am not aware of it.

A 500g flywheel at 20,000rpm could be very powerful by my estimate.

Having followed F1 since the early '90ties I obviously know about the 1993 (not 1992) FW15C. The point was that this tech was not developed in F1 either, but was adopted from road going cars. Between 1987 and 1992 at least 11 different car models featured partly or fully active suspension.

Not sure if the points you make about hybrid turbo systems are aimed at my comments?

I am a big fan of next years hybrid turbo tech, but that is also nothing new. Garrett did a lot of research on hybrid turbos (turbo with a EGM, or Electric Generator Motor) about 5-10 years ago. However it hasn't been seen in mainstream production, and perhaps that is where F1 can help in this case. BMW also filed a patent wich involves turbos with EGM tech.

Hybrid systems like KERS in F1 is also nothing new:

This technology is not new. Flywheel energy storage has been used in hybrid vehicles such as buses, trams and prototype cars before but the installation tended to be heavy and the gyroscopic forces of the flywheel were significant. Flybrid has now overcome these limitations.

http://www.flybridsystems.com/Technology.html

BTW, the F1 KERS flywheel rotate at over 60.000rpm's...

http://www.flybridsystems.com/F1System.html

The FW15C was a very technologically advanced car, however it did not represent any brand new hitherto unknown tech. It simply was the most technically advanced F1 car in history by adapting some old and some more recent tech, never seen in F1 before, but seen outside of F1 for some time.

Double Clutch Transmission in the M3 and M5, no connection with F1 at all. But considered one of the big improvements over the E60 M5 SMG transmission (which incidentally is closer to F1 tech...).

So, even though F1 is a great arena to test and develop technology, very little brand new tech is actually invented there...

[buildbright]

Most of the time we never truely know who was the original inventor. We know the patent holder or thief. We dont keep track of whos mind is the first to think of an idea. Its the first to act. I give a lot of credit to the people who actually make the product work and useable. There is no argument racing is where car technology is developed into useable engineering.

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Having followed F1 since the early '90ties I obviously know about the 1993 (not 1992) FW15C. The point was that this tech was not developed in F1 either, but was adopted from road going cars. Between 1987 and 1992 at least 11 different car models featured partly or fully active suspension.

Not sure if the points you make about hybrid turbo systems are aimed at my comments?

I am a big fan of next years hybrid turbo tech, but that is also nothing new. Garrett did a lot of research on hybrid turbos (turbo with a EGM, or Electric Generator Motor) about 5-10 years ago. However it hasn't been seen in mainstream production, and perhaps that is where F1 can help in this case. BMW also filed a patent wich involves turbos with EGM tech.

Hybrid systems like KERS in F1 is also nothing new:



http://www.flybridsystems.com/Technology.html

BTW, the F1 KERS flywheel rotate at over 60.000rpm's...

http://www.flybridsystems.com/F1System.html

The FW15C was a very technologically advanced car, however it did not represent any brand new hitherto unknown tech. It simply was the most technically advanced F1 car in history by adapting some old and some more recent tech, never seen in F1 before, but seen outside of F1 for some time.

Double Clutch Transmission in the M3 and M5, no connection with F1 at all. But considered one of the big improvements over the E60 M5 SMG transmission (which incidentally is closer to F1 tech...).

So, even though F1 is a great arena to test and develop technology, very little brand new tech is actually invented there...

Thanks Boss. I know a lot less about F1 technology that you do.

My comment on reduction in costs was not aimed at you but other comments suggesting that hybrid turbo tech cannot be made economic for production performance cars.

My point was only that with a few notable exceptions, basically all technology ever used in F1 has been used or is still being used in production performance cars, it wasn't that F1 invented all performance technologies.

FYI I found that Mitsubishi HI is producing a marine hybrid turbocharger:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/31...arger-to-gene/

Also there's Aeristech, Garrett, BorgWarner and Valeo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_turbocharger

[saxonb]

Originally Posted by buildbright

Most of the time we never truely know who was the original inventor. We know the patent holder or thief. We dont keep track of whos mind is the first to think of an idea. Its the first to act. I give a lot of credit to the people who actually make the product work and useable. There is no argument racing is where car technology is developed into useable engineering.

Yes I'm not making any points about origins, only application of technologies in F1 and that the vast majority of technologies that have been applied in F1, have been applied to performance production cars.

I also entirely reject the notion of intellectual property. All knowledge is derived and therefore exclusive claims over third parties for ideas that can be independently arrived at is just pure stealing. Straight up. The patent holder is the thief.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by saxonb

Thanks Boss. I know a lot less about F1 technology that you do.

My comment on reduction in costs was not aimed at you but other comments suggesting that hybrid turbo tech cannot be made economic for production performance cars.

My point was only that with a few notable exceptions, basically all technology ever used in F1 has been used or is still being used in production performance cars, it wasn't that F1 invented all performance technologies.

FYI I found that Mitsubishi HI is producing a marine hybrid turbocharger:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/31...arger-to-gene/

Also there's Aeristech, Garrett, BorgWarner and Valeo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_turbocharger

Then we have been on the same page all the time

I completely agree with what you said as well as with buildbrights comments.