[E90_boostjunky]

I like the fact that it can go 80-100 miles on one charge, but seriously why does every electric car have to look so hideous, I dont understand why they just dont get a normal looking bmw and retrofit an existing model. anyway just wanted to hear some opinions on it.
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoram...123130656.html

[Dark_Knight_335]

Looks gross- like a Fiat

[Mardio]

Yes it looks pretty ugly. Yuck!

[Benstuck]

Going to be a hard sell when you have the volt, leaf and tesla already in the market, but who knows, I might be proved wrong.

[ken1137]

Ugly...plus Com Ed sucks in Chicago. I cant foresee them or any electric company being able to support the energy required in the Chicago area. We have problems in the Summer alone with all of the A/Cs running.

[NormE91]

Well it's not the best looking, but longer range than a Volt on electric only and about the same price. I test drove a Volt and it was impressive, I found the dash pretty tacky though. Lots of torque immediately; much quicker and more responsive than I expected.

[DC_Oldboy]

Originally Posted by Dark_Knight_335

Looks gross- like a Fiat

+1 That's exactly what it looks like. Ugly.

[tony20009]

Looks aside, until an electric car can deliver from one charge 200+ miles of driving much as I drive my E92, I don't really think they are going to be the right car for most people in the US who want one as their sole car. It's probably fine for now strictly as a commuter car and Saturday errand runner.

My reasons for having that belief are:

• Most folks in the US live in suburbs. I suspect 80-100 miles is right at the limit of what a typical person might have to do on any general day. I live in a the middle of DC. No single round trip I normally make exceeds 30 miles, and most are more like 10 miles or less. I don't think that's so for most suburbanites. I could be wrong though.
• Whenever I'm home in DC, "stuff" invariably comes up that I had no plan for doing, but that I want to do. It's one thing to stop and get gas if I happen to be at a ¼ tank and then head off on my unplanned foray. It's quite another if my electric car is on its last ¼ of charge. Electric cars are wonderful, but I won't drive one at the expense of spontaneity. I already have one device -- my cell phone -- that I have to constantly keep it in the back of my mind to keep it well charged. I don't want a car for which I also have to do that.
• The prices for electric cars seems high to me. I'm no industry expert on the matter; it's just my own point of view based on my own observations. Electric cars aren't substantively different from electric trains or electric anything else that's been around for years running on batteries. Why they should cost almost twice the price of regular cars is something I don't yet grasp.

Regarding the vision of electric cars in general, I really think that they won't be all that viable an automotive alternative until they run on electricity much like subways or bumper cars do. That is to say, when the infrastructure is in place whereby there is a grid of ground (or underground) power lines into which a car can tap and drive pretty nearly anywhere. The cars would need to still run on a battery as they cars do now, but that would only be to reach things not supported by the power lines/grid, such as changing lanes or if there's a power outage. Things such as parking lots, private homes, relatively remote locales, etc. At that point, the 80-100 mile range would probably be sufficient for nearly anybody.

As for paying for the electricity received via the grid, I guess one could either pay a monthly fee or all grid entry points would essentially be toll booths, albeit without an actual booth. You get on, the meter starts ticking. You get off, the meter stops ticking. You get sent a bill periodically. You can drive on the roads without connecting to the grid if you want to; that's free.

The other major hurdle that comes to mind is that in such a model as I described above, some provision would need to be made for weather, and as what I have in mind is an in-ground grid, earthquakes and more gentle forms of surface movement. Although safety is certainly one concern, the dispersal and loss of the electricity though water is also a issue I would think. I'm pretty certain the general public wouldn't cotton tot he idea of power lines being all over the place; it'd just be too much of an eye sore.

[E902009]

All electric/hybrid vehicles have to be marketed to people who want to flaunt their new alternative energy vehicles. Therefore, the design, at least for now, will always be a bit over the top, to downright hideous. I have yet to meet a person who drives an alternative vehicle and tries to hide that fact. With a Prius or a Volt it'll to be possible, but with a Camry or Altima hybrid, I would de-badge it if I owned one. I've even seen people with old W123 Mercedes that have been converted to bio-diesels go out of their way to make the conversion known, with stickers like "would you like fries with that?" to "Powered by Crisco." It's like if they can throw a light up in the sky like Batman, they would.

The i3 is pretty intriguing. All electric and around 100 miles in range. I would be the perfect candidate for that car, since all the driving I seem to do is to and from the airport, which is 10 miles each way. Then when I'm home, I need a car to run errands. But I'm not giving up my E90, and because I travel so much, a tank of gas (if I fill up, which I don't often do) would last me at least two months.

[Transport3r]

I like the concept, styling needs to be toned down, especially the rear side windows.
Also what's with the huge shifter sticking out of the steering column?

[Titanium3er]

I like the idea of electric vehicles, but, like others mentioned, the technology has a long way to go before it becomes practical for the majority of us here in the States. As far as the styling, I am not a fan.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by E902009

All electric/hybrid vehicles have to be marketed to people who want to flaunt their new alternative energy vehicles. Therefore, the design, at least for now, will always be a bit over the top, to downright hideous. I have yet to meet a person who drives an alternative vehicle and tries to hide that fact. With a Prius or a Volt it'll to be possible, but with a Camry or Altima hybrid, I would de-badge it if I owned one. I've even seen people with old W123 Mercedes that have been converted to bio-diesels go out of their way to make the conversion known, with stickers like "would you like fries with that?" to "Powered by Crisco." It's like if they can throw a light up in the sky like Batman, they would.

...

The above is why the best managers will make it a point to personally, and publicly if possible/feasible, recognize and commend employees for doing even the littlest things well, despite the fact that doing those things well is what they are being paid to do. Most people are so desirous of a little recognition that if given enough of it, they'll happily be content with much lower pay increases than they otherwise would expect.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Looks aside, until an electric car can deliver from one charge 200+ miles of driving much as I drive my E92, I don't really think they are going to be the right car for most people in the US who want one as their sole car. It's probably fine for now strictly as a commuter car and Saturday errand runner.

My reasons for having that belief are:

• Most folks in the US live in suburbs. I suspect 80-100 miles is right at the limit of what a typical person might have to do on any general day. I live in a the middle of DC. No single round trip I normally make exceeds 30 miles, and most are more like 10 miles or less. I don't think that's so for most suburbanites. I could be wrong though.
• Whenever I'm home in DC, "stuff" invariably comes up that I had no plan for doing, but that I want to do. It's one thing to stop and get gas if I happen to be at a ¼ tank and then head off on my unplanned foray. It's quite another if my electric car is on its last ¼ of charge. Electric cars are wonderful, but I won't drive one at the expense of spontaneity. I already have one device -- my cell phone -- that I have to constantly keep it in the back of my mind to keep it well charged. I don't want a car for which I also have to do that.
• The prices for electric cars seems high to me. I'm no industry expert on the matter; it's just my own point of view based on my own observations. Electric cars aren't substantively different from electric trains or electric anything else that's been around for years running on batteries. Why they should cost almost twice the price of regular cars is something I don't yet grasp.

Regarding the vision of electric cars in general, I really think that they won't be all that viable an automotive alternative until they run on electricity much like subways or bumper cars do. That is to say, when the infrastructure is in place whereby there is a grid of ground (or underground) power lines into which a car can tap and drive pretty nearly anywhere. The cars would need to still run on a battery as they cars do now, but that would only be to reach things not supported by the power lines/grid, such as changing lanes or if there's a power outage. Things such as parking lots, private homes, relatively remote locales, etc. At that point, the 80-100 mile range would probably be sufficient for nearly anybody.

As for paying for the electricity received via the grid, I guess one could either pay a monthly fee or all grid entry points would essentially be toll booths, albeit without an actual booth. You get on, the meter starts ticking. You get off, the meter stops ticking. You get sent a bill periodically. You can drive on the roads without connecting to the grid if you want to; that's free.

The other major hurdle that comes to mind is that in such a model as I described above, some provision would need to be made for weather, and as what I have in mind is an in-ground grid, earthquakes and more gentle forms of surface movement. Although safety is certainly one concern, the dispersal and loss of the electricity though water is also a issue I would think. I'm pretty certain the general public wouldn't cotton tot he idea of power lines being all over the place; it'd just be too much of an eye sore.

The Tesla S comes as close to your 200 mile range of all the battery electric vehicles on the market. The least expensive Model S is about $70K w/o options and the $7,500 Bush-era tax rebate. I've done a total lifecycle cost for the Tesla S as compared to my '06 E90 for 200,000 miles of driving and the $70K Tesla is still about $20,000 more in total life cycle cost (without a battery change for 200,000 miles - not likely to be the case). Until Tesla can erase that $20K gap in total lifecycle cost, the car will remain the electric sales leader it is (now) because it fits the eco-crowd better than the Prius or Leaf, but will never become mainstream. The idea of (Federally subsidized) "super charging" stations every few hundreds of miles on the major interstates is a joke too. It's fine if you want to drive from DC to New York, or Sacramento to LA, but how about South to North in Iowa? And just wait for the next Derracho that knocks out electrical power in Montgomery County for 5 days...

Read the fine print and you'll learn that Tesla mandates a $600-per-12,000 mile service inspection and they offer a Tesla-financed owner-pays-for-up-front battery replacement service (what a way to finance the company!). If you compare the cost of ownership for a Tesla S to say a AMG 63 or a BMW M5, then yeah, it almost works (less the $10K battery replacement), but how many of us really buy a M5 or AMG 63 as a daily driver?

The Volt makes the most sense out of all these cars. As an extended-range electric, you can drive the average 40 miles per day on a single charge and never use gasoline, or if you want to go to Bethany Beach for the weekend, you can drive there and still get 38 MPG while in gas mode. And the Volt really does drive excellent. I rung the shit out of one on my test drive on the back roads around Orange, Virginia, and was thoroughly impressed (I've been driving a 3-series for the past 25 years...).

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Tesla S comes as close to your 200 mile range of all the battery electric vehicles on the market. The least expensive Model S is about $70K w/o options and the $7,500 Bush-era tax rebate. I've done a total lifecycle cost for the Tesla S as compared to my '06 E90 for 200,000 miles of driving and the $70K Tesla is still about $20,000 more in total life cycle cost (without a battery change for 200,000 miles - not likely to be the case). Until Tesla can erase that $20K gap in total lifecycle cost, the car will remain the electric sales leader it is (now) because it fits the eco-crowd better than the Prius or Leaf, but will never become mainstream. The idea of (Federally subsidized) "super charging" stations every few hundreds of miles on the major interstates is a joke too. It's fine if you want to drive from DC to New York, or Sacramento to LA, but how about South to North in Iowa? And just wait for the next Derracho that knocks out electrical power in Montgomery County for 5 days...

Read the fine print and you'll learn that Tesla mandates a $600-per-12,000 mile service inspection and they offer a Tesla-financed owner-pays-for-up-front battery replacement service (what a way to finance the company!). If you compare the cost of ownership for a Tesla S to say a AMG 63 or a BMW M5, then yeah, it almost works (less the $10K battery replacement), but how many of us really buy a M5 or AMG 63 as a daily driver?

The Volt makes the most sense out of all these cars. As an extended-range electric, you can drive the average 40 miles per day on a single charge and never use gasoline, or if you want to go to Bethany Beach for the weekend, you can drive there and still get 38 MPG while in gas mode. And the Volt really does drive excellent. I rung the shit out of one on my test drive on the back roads around Orange, Virginia, and was thoroughly impressed (I've been driving a 3-series for the past 25 years...).

+1

I agree with every thing you said.

As go the M5/AMG 63, the folks I know who have one don't use them as daily drivers although those folks also have too many cars to say they drive any single one on a daily basis.

Yes, that Derecho (sp?) was something else. Do you know why there are any above-ground power lines other than those transmission lines you see on giant 200+ feet tall towers ???

[Hoooper]

Comparatively though for electric cars the model s is a good deal, looks significantly better, drives better, over 200 mile range with typical use (265 miles rated, but that must be downhill). Its more the refueling thing that gets me since its not unusual for me to put over 200 on in a day and planning a recharging stop just doesn't do it for me.

[CoastsideE90]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Tesla S comes as close to your 200 mile range of all the battery electric vehicles on the market. The least expensive Model S is about $70K w/o options and the $7,500 Bush-era tax rebate. I've done a total lifecycle cost for the Tesla S as compared to my '06 E90 for 200,000 miles of driving and the $70K Tesla is still about $20,000 more in total life cycle cost (without a battery change for 200,000 miles - not likely to be the case). Until Tesla can erase that $20K gap in total lifecycle cost, the car will remain the electric sales leader it is (now) because it fits the eco-crowd better than the Prius or Leaf, but will never become mainstream. The idea of (Federally subsidized) "super charging" stations every few hundreds of miles on the major interstates is a joke too. It's fine if you want to drive from DC to New York, or Sacramento to LA, but how about South to North in Iowa? And just wait for the next Derracho that knocks out electrical power in Montgomery County for 5 days...

Read the fine print and you'll learn that Tesla mandates a $600-per-12,000 mile service inspection and they offer a Tesla-financed owner-pays-for-up-front battery replacement service (what a way to finance the company!). If you compare the cost of ownership for a Tesla S to say a AMG 63 or a BMW M5, then yeah, it almost works (less the $10K battery replacement), but how many of us really buy a M5 or AMG 63 as a daily driver?

The Volt makes the most sense out of all these cars. As an extended-range electric, you can drive the average 40 miles per day on a single charge and never use gasoline, or if you want to go to Bethany Beach for the weekend, you can drive there and still get 38 MPG while in gas mode. And the Volt really does drive excellent. I rung the shit out of one on my test drive on the back roads around Orange, Virginia, and was thoroughly impressed (I've been driving a 3-series for the past 25 years...).

So how does the Volt compare to your E90 in your lifecycle analysis? Apples and oranges, I know, but intersting because the Volt is expensive but not as bad as the Tesla.
Also, wouldn't it be more accurate to compare those electrics with a new BMW, an F30 I guess?

[AzureHaze]

But one Tesla Model S please!

[Amini77]

Worse than a prius.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by CoastsideE90

So how does the Volt compare to your E90 in your lifecycle analysis? Apples and oranges, I know, but intersting because the Volt is expensive but not as bad as the Tesla.
Also, wouldn't it be more accurate to compare those electrics with a new BMW, an F30 I guess?

I didn't do a lifecycle analysis between my E90 and a Volt, but I did compare the Volt and F30 in a monthly-cost analysis (along with a Focus, Fusion Hybrid, and Jetta Diesel). I've not done a lifecycle analysis between the Volt and F30 and probably should (I think there is a website that does this for you now). I did the lifecycle cost analysis with the Tesla because you are basically paying for most of the life-cost of it up front in the retail price; the operating costs are theoretically cheap since fuel for it is very inexpensive (which is the point of owning it). What I like about the Tesla is simply the fact that the unit price of the fuel does not wildly vary week to week as gasoline does, which allows you to much better predict (and budget) the operating costs on a monthly basis. But you need to understand that the numbers I ran were for a 200,000 lifecycle, where the price of the car is amortized over a huge amount of miles, which helps the Tesla by getting more miles out of the purchase cost plus lower daily operating costs (fuel and maintenance). But the E90 is $30K less in purchase cost, which buys a lot of gasoline...

But back to the F30/Volt comparo. So considering a new car purchase for both and my daily commute, which is 160 miles round trip, and assuming I can charge the Volt at work (I deplete the battery about midway one way to work and then home) the monthly costs are:

Volt costs -------- $805
F30 costs -------- $1,100
Fusion Hybrd ---- $843
Focus -------------$666
Jetta Diesel ------$708

The comparison does not factor in maintenance and repair costs (assumes it equal between all of the cars).

As for lifecycle, the total price difference (including a 5 year loan cost)between the F30 and Volt, which I estimate around $10,300, would pay for a Volt battery replacement and still leave about $4K on the table (my estimate of $6K for a Volt battery replacement), so I'd say the Volt would have a lower lifecycle cost than an F30.

But that is for my 160-mile commute, which is far beyond typical (insane really). Running the same calculations with a 45-mile daily commute for the two cars (supposedly typical) shows:
Volt monthly at ---- $603
F30 monthly at ---- $841

If I had to make that choice, I'd go with the Volt. It's a bit smaller than the F30 (but not from the driver's seat); but for street-acceptable driving it is well within my tolerance level for drive feel. I've not yet driven an F30, but from what I've read in magazines and from other E90 members here on the Forum, it sounds like the Volt and F30 are comparable at legal street-level driving dynamics. Believe me the Volt is no 3-series, but apparently neither is the F30. Go drive the Volt, it really will surprise you.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tony20009

+1

I agree with every thing you said.

As go the M5/AMG 63, the folks I know who have one don't use them as daily drivers although those folks also have too many cars to say they drive any single one on a daily basis.

Yes, that Derecho (sp?) was something else. Do you know why there are any above-ground power lines other than those transmission lines you see on giant 200+ feet tall towers ???

Cost of installation, and 100 years ago electricity was a luxury, and not a God-given right (apparently) to those in Mo' County. (my Mother, Sister, and two Bothers all live there...) Out here in the country, we just fire up the generator so we can flush the toilet...

Or charge the Tesla (hummmm.....)

[knissel]

Tesla Model S P85+ please

[reeltime]

I don't like it. It's ugly and I'm not a fan of electric cars anyways