[wayman519]

At bavauto.com , Kellners Sport module is Normally $1959.00 but its on sale for $1595.00. Check it out it offers +49 HP and +51lb.ft torque for the 328i F30

[mocohead]

That still seems exorbitant to me especially in light of the dearth of information concerning what it does, how safe it is, and any independent validation of the horsepower results. This product is a costly gamble IMHO...

[wayman519]

No it is costly but not a gamble. Its the best tune you can get for any BMW. Other tuners have engine signal interceptors and ECU reprogramming. This does neither of those. It is an OBDII piggyback cartridge with a 2nd ECU chip. Its plug and play. Plus kellners extensively tests all tunes on the track. By far this is the safest tune you can buy for your car. Even Dinan does not offer this, they only do ECU programming.

[mocohead]

Originally Posted by wayman519

No it is costly but not a gamble. Its the best tune you can get for any BMW. Other tuners have engine signal interceptors and ECU reprogramming. This does neither of those. It is an OBDII piggyback cartridge with a 2nd ECU chip. Its plug and play. Plus kellners extensively tests all tunes on the track. By far this is the safest tune you can buy for you car. Even Dinan does not offer this, they only do ECU programming.

Great to know! Does it throw tuner codes? How are the afr's relative to stock? How much boost is it adding? How do you know any of the above facts, like that it is safe and track tested?

[wayman519]

I did some extensive research on F30 chips before purchasing since in canada I could fully load the 320i and get a performance chip for the n20 engine if i wanted a little extra power. What i found was stock internal ECU programming changes the original car to a warranty voided tuner. I then found Kelleners Sport. I did some heavy research on them and found they are a renowned performance tuning company from Germany for BMW's. They were the first with any tune for the F30 and it turns out its the best. check there site and youtube. All there upgrades are tested heavily on the track (they are german as we know nuts about performance, reliablity and all that jazz). It does not throw any codes as its only piggybacking. No info on the car is touched. When plugged in the BMW computer is bypassed and only the chip is doing all the work. When ur finished you just remove the cartridge from under the glove box and the car is back to factory state.

[mocohead]

The tune detection code does not show to the end user. It is stored in the ECU and only detectable by a dealer. Just because you aren't seeing a light on the dash does NOT mean there are no tune detection codes in the ECU.

Do you have this product installed in your car? What steps are involved in the installation?

Is the map upgradeable by the user?

How does the tune handle additional modifications to the car, such as an intake and down pipe?

Are you willing to put your car on a dyno with wideband 02 and boost monitoring and report back to the community?

What is your affiliation with the manufacturer, if any?

[wayman519]

A tune code only shows if the onboard electronics and code are changed. All BMW engines are limited at the factory, and all this chip does is safely increases that limitation. Obviously reliability is compromised a little for extra engine power and increased component wear. Adding other mods like exhaust and cooling is just bonus performance and increasing reliability. Now I am not affiliated with this company, but I do have much work experience pertaining to control systems of any nature. Now I would recommend getting this tune for the 320i, since at that mod the engine is still below BMW's set limitation. For the 328i and 335i you are now pushing the engine harder than BMW set it for, but should not be much of a problem since these engines are quite resilient.

Read this: http://www.kelleners-sport.com/en/performance.php

If you can, give them a call. (its a call to germany)

They say on the site that the chip can be removed without leaving a trace behind. Which makes sense since no code/electronics are touched in the car, they are all located on the cartridge.

[clarence]

AC Schnitzer is also making a piggy-back module for the N20, & in Europe at least, it retains full BMW warranty as for a number of countries it is represented by the local BMW importer.

[wayman519]

nice, i'll check that out.

[mocohead]

Originally Posted by wayman519

A tune code only shows if the onboard electronics and code are changed.

That simply is inconsistent with my experience. The ECU monitors all aspects of the motor's performance. Unless you have first hand knowledge that the ECU in the N20 is different from the N54 and N55, BMW can tell if you install a piggyback controller by seeing if any aspect of the engine's performance goes out of spec. The tune detection code does NOT come from modifying the code in the ECU, although there would obviously be traces of that too. It can also come from making too much boost, or inconsistent readings from the TMAP sensor, etc...

Do you have this device on your car?

[MikeVictor]

This smacks of advertising, although I understand some people get unduly passionate about tunes for some reason. The anecdotal claims are a concern though.

[wayman519]

then if your planning on tuning during warranty, you should find a guy who knows how to remove that code. If thats true, its impossible to tune without a code thrown and the signal interceptor is your best bet but will ruin your engine in the long run. There is no other way! unless you are willing to reprogram you ECU each time for a Hefty cost.

[DimSum]

Originally Posted by wayman519

then if your planning on tuning during warranty, you should find a guy who knows how to remove that code. If thats true, its impossible to tune without a code thrown and the signal interceptor is your best bet but will ruin your engine in the long run. There is no other way! unless you are willing to reprogram you ECU each time for a Hefty cost.

Regardless if they can clear codes, it is still easy enough to tell if the car has been tuned before.

The ECU logs all sorts of data, if BMW want's to screw you over a tune then they can easily do if they want.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by wayman519

then if your planning on tuning during warranty, you should find a guy who knows how to remove that code. If thats true, its impossible to tune without a code thrown and the signal interceptor is your best bet but will ruin your engine in the long run. There is no other way! unless you are willing to reprogram you ECU each time for a Hefty cost.

PM sent today

[Ouzzo]

It's three times the cost of a JB4.
There should be some proof provided to show it is safe and reliable and performing to lure people into spending the extra money

I saw the you tubes but I wouldn't know how that compared to a JB4 , AFE, TMC

[regular_joe]

Dyno stats or you are just blowing hot air...

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by regular_joe

Dyno stats or you are just blowing hot air...

I don't have any independent dyno graphs for you to look at to confirm the manufacturers' claims. Take it or leave it at that.

Personally, when it comes to a new BMW under warranty I'm going to get the best possible product I reasonably afford. It's not only about dyno stats, it's not even primarily about dynos for me. I want to protect the engine and I want to decrease my chances of creating problems and possibly having to hassle with the dealership. If I get a 20% boost in power with increased peace of mind, I'm good.

For those reasons I've decided to go with one of the high-end piggyback tuners--they include AC Schnitzer, Kelleners Sport, Hartge, and Steinbauer Performance, AFAIK. They're all German and they've all worked for decades very closely with BMW and their products. Will the BMS tuning box give you as much or more power for anywhere from 10-20% of the cost? Yes. Will you have problems with the tune? Probably not. So that might be your choice. Please don't flame me for mine.

After weeks of looking into this I've found out that these high-end piggybacks work differently and more naturally increase power than the lower-priced competitors, that they're easier on and safer for the engine and DPF, and that they tend to produce a smoother, more natural (less peaky) acceleration, along with lower toxic emissions out the tailpipe.

FYI, the Schnitzer comes with a full engine/drivetrain warranty like Dinan's but it's way expensive ($4-5K). The Steinbauer has comparable technology and it's a lot more affordable, but doesn't currently produce a TB for my car (328D). Same for Hartge, except it's more expensive than the Steinbauer. That leaves my probable choice being Kelleners Sport, and I'm investigating that option with the help of their U.S. distributor Bavarian Auto (Bavauto.com).

[Ouzzo]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

I don't have any independent dyno graphs for you to look at to confirm the manufacturers' claims. Take it or leave it at that.

Personally, when it comes to a new BMW under warranty I'm going to get the best possible product I reasonably afford. It's not only about dyno stats, it's not even primarily about dynos for me. I want to protect the engine and I want to decrease my chances of creating problems and possibly having to hassle with the dealership. If I get a 20% boost in power with increased peace of mind, I'm good.

For those reasons I've decided to go with one of the high-end piggyback tuners--they include AC Schnitzer, Kelleners Sport, Hartge, and Steinbauer Performance, AFAIK. They're all German and they've all worked for decades very closely with BMW and their products. Will the BMS tuning box give you as much or more power for anywhere from 10-20% of the cost? Yes. Will you have problems with the tune? Probably not. So that might be your choice. Please don't flame me for mine.

After weeks of looking into this I've found out that these high-end piggybacks work differently and more naturally increase power than the lower-priced competitors, that they're easier on and safer for the engine and DPF, and that they tend to produce a smoother, more natural (less peaky) acceleration, along with lower toxic emissions out the tailpipe.

FYI, the Schnitzer comes with a full engine/drivetrain warranty like Dinan's but it's way expensive ($4-5K). The Steinbauer has comparable technology and it's a lot more affordable, but doesn't currently produce a TB for my car (328D). Same for Hartge, except it's more expensive than the Steinbauer. That leaves my probable choice being Kelleners Sport, and I'm investigating that option with the help of their U.S. distributor Bavarian Auto (Bavauto.com).

Your reasoning is quit fine. I myself have been postponing the choice of tune for the same reasoning of warranty and reliability.

There is not much information from users around the other tunes so please keep us updated should you buy Kellner.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Ouzzo

Your reasoning is quit fine. I myself have been postponing the choice of tune for the same reasoning of warranty and reliability.

There is not much information from users around the other tunes so please keep us updated should you buy Kellner.

OK, here's an update on the Hartge module. I contacted the main office in Beckingen. They sent back a very informative email, which I will reproduce last in this post. Here is the issue at question: The unit is not really "plug-and-play" since it requires soldering a wire to the gas pedal sensor. That's not something I'm particularly comfortable with. This is what he told me:

It may is a bit more work for installation but you don't have to take it out. BMW will not see it and they can't read or write (overwrite) data.
Don't worry, install it and don't tell. This is the easiest.
Inspections, oil change, service like standard.

A BMW mechanic won't see it?!! Especially if there' an engine issue they're checking out? Who is crazy here, me or him?

Here is the body of the first email:

Upgrades works simmular to the AC Schnitzer one. We got a bit more feature I guess

Our Hi-Tech system contains many "smart" technical features,
and is the result of many months of design, testing
and durability trials.

The investment we have made during the development program has resulted in a full 3 year warranty
on the hardware and software.

The Hartge ECU is an external additional control unit.

It is internally sealed and cannot be detected by BMW service procedure interrogations.

It is also not possible that BMW software updates can disturb the performance of the Hartge ECU.
Unlike engine management "chipping" and "flash" upgrades, it never gets overwritten during
service enhancements by BMW.

The Hartge ECU is connected via a special wiring harness to the injector, temperature sensor,
gas pedal signal (to be soldered) and power supplies, rest all plug and play.

Additional power is generated by increasing the injection timing by a precisely calculated number.
This number depending on engine speed, gas pedal angle (approx. 60% throttle to avoid diesel filter damages),
and calculated engine load and other parameters.
The BMW ECU continues to monitor all other important engine parameters as standard.

Therefore the engine behaves as standard to ensure that the standard emissions controls
remain intact for the standard emissions tests and drive cycle testing.

There is also overload protection, which prevents full power from being delivered for excessively long periods of time,
for example when towing heavy loads, or driving for too long at V-max.

The Hartge ECU also prevents overload of the transmission at lower than 1,200 rpm,
and overstressing the engine at high power outputs.

In extreme temperature conditions, the Hartge ECU also monitors the exhaust gas temperature,
and if this exceeds the safe limit, the Hartge ECU reduces power accordingly back
to standard BMW power.

All standard BMW engine protection and emissions systems remain in place and continue to function.

[Ouzzo]

Found this today no,mention of soldering,but I guess you are talking about the Diesel engine
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=841010

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818356

This is about the N20

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by stevehecht

FYI, the Schnitzer comes with a full engine/drivetrain warranty like Dinan's but it's way expensive ($4-5K). The Steinbauer has comparable technology and it's a lot more affordable, but doesn't currently produce a TB for my car (328D). Same for Hartge, except it's more expensive than the Steinbauer. That leaves my probable choice being Kelleners Sport, and I'm investigating that option with the help of their U.S. distributor Bavarian Auto (Bavauto.com).

This is false, I have found out. Steinbauer does market a module for the N4720 as it is tuned for NA. The item number is 11 20 1184.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by mocohead

That simply is inconsistent with my experience. The ECU monitors all aspects of the motor's performance. Unless you have first hand knowledge that the ECU in the N20 is different from the N54 and N55, BMW can tell if you install a piggyback controller by seeing if any aspect of the engine's performance goes out of spec. The tune detection code does NOT come from modifying the code in the ECU, although there would obviously be traces of that too. It can also come from making too much boost, or inconsistent readings from the TMAP sensor, etc...

Do you have this device on your car?

But isn't there a limit to how much data is logged? The ECU would only have a limited amount of non volatile RAM. If too large, the tech would be scanning a gigantic log of data. Does any tech do that?