[Cadence]

Has Shiv ever made a good post on exactly how his PROcede works to make great power and keep everything safe?

I know that most other piggyback systems (UTEC, VAFC, ARC2, etc) that alter signals to or from the ECU can be tuned for good power but usually at the expense of the factory ECU no longer being able to compensate for things like altitude, temp, barometric pressure, knock, etc. Is this also the case with the PROcede and if not how is this unit so special?

Also, IIRC the N54 runs 0.8bar (11.6psi) from the factory and the PROcede V1.45 91 octane is also approx 11psi, correct? If so where does all the power and torque come from

[Terry335]

[BMWPower06]

I think shiv has one on his site, if not check his forum

[Cadence]

I found a decent FAQ here http://www.vishnutuningforum.com/for...thread.php?t=2 but it doesn't address all the questions I posted in this thread.

-The BMW press release in the sticky of this section says the N54 runs 0.8bar which is the same pressure that Shiv claims with the PROcede. This doesn't make sense.

-Does the factory ECU still have full control over atmospheric conditions, even with the PROcede manipulating the output signals?

-Does the 93oct map run more boost than the 91oct map or just more timing?

-Did anyone ever check the EGTs before and after a PROcede install?

-Does the PROcede remove the 144mph speed limiter?

[Cadence]

Bump for more info. Maybe Shiv can step in here.

[stefano7171]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I found a decent FAQ here http://www.vishnutuningforum.com/for...thread.php?t=2 but it doesn't address all the questions I posted in this thread.

-The BMW press release in the sticky of this section says the N54 runs 0.8bar which is the same pressure that Shiv claims with the PROcede. This doesn't make sense.

-Does the factory ECU still have full control over atmospheric conditions, even with the PROcede manipulating the output signals?

-Does the 93oct map run more boost than the 91oct map or just more timing?

-Did anyone ever check the EGTs before and after a PROcede install?

-Does the PROcede remove the 144mph speed limiter?

Stock engine runs on 0.6 bar at sea level, but compensates for altitude reaching a peak of 0.8 bar. Procede, among other things, make the engine think it is always on a mountain, therfore.... 0,8 bar all the time. This is at least my understanding!
No speed limit removal, maybe with Procede 2.0, but I havre read that a piggyback can not bypass the limiter in any case.

[ingram4868]

Originally Posted by stefano7171

Stock engine runs on 0.6 bar at sea level, but compensates for altitude reaching a peak of 0.8 bar. Procede, among other things, make the engine think it is always on a mountain, therfore.... 0,8 bar all the time. This is at least my understanding!
No speed limit removal, maybe with Procede 2.0, but I havre read that a piggyback can not bypass the limiter in any case.

If this statement is accurate then will the PROcede be beneficial for those of us that live at the 5000 foot elevation?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by stefano7171

Stock engine runs on 0.6 bar at sea level, but compensates for altitude reaching a peak of 0.8 bar. Procede, among other things, make the engine think it is always on a mountain, therfore.... 0,8 bar all the time. This is at least my understanding!
No speed limit removal, maybe with Procede 2.0, but I havre read that a piggyback can not bypass the limiter in any case.

The PROcede runs 0.96 bar. It takes some power increase from altitude compensation but will still compensate altitude fairly good. There has been a dyno day at ~5000ft with pretty good dyno-charts. A piggyback can defend a speed-limiter as simple little blackboxes can.

Cheers
Eugen

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter

The PROcede runs 0.96 bar. It takes some power increase from altitude compensation but will still compensate altitude fairly good.

I've got a few questions:
1) I've seen the A/F graph from a Procede car on Dyno and it looks good. But has anyone specifically measured the knock sensor signal during WOT on the road?
2) Any recommendations for technique to avoid destroying the manual transmission with that extra torque? (Besides "just take it easy"...)
3) How does one need to drive to get that claimed 1 or 2 MPG increase?
Thanks.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

I've got a few questions:
1) I've seen the A/F graph from a Procede car on Dyno and it looks good. But has anyone specifically measured the knock sensor signal during WOT on the road?

Excellent question and something that we really need Shiv to answer.Please

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

I've got a few questions:
1) I've seen the A/F graph from a Procede car on Dyno and it looks good. But has anyone specifically measured the knock sensor signal during WOT on the road?
2) Any recommendations for technique to avoid destroying the manual transmission with that extra torque? (Besides "just take it easy"...)
3) How does one need to drive to get that claimed 1 or 2 MPG increase?
Thanks.

I don't think you can measure the knock sensor directly without BMW software. All I (and maybe the pros?) can do is look at the total timing advance stock vs. under boost and "guess" if knock retard is kicking in. Anyway doing this is a basic component of tuning and I'm sure it was done.

[Dustin Bramell]

Originally Posted by Cadence

The BMW press release in the sticky of this section says the N54 runs 0.8bar which is the same pressure that Shiv claims with the PROcede. This doesn't make sense.

The stock car makes about 7-8PSI of boost. In current form, the Procede makes 14psi down to 10psi by redline.

Originally Posted by Cadence

-Does the factory ECU still have full control over atmospheric conditions, even with the PROcede manipulating the output signals?

Of course! The Procede actually manipulates the signals before they reach the ECU, and lets the ECU make its adjustments. In other words, we are creating an offset to an actual condition, rather than creating a false condition all together.

Originally Posted by Cadence

-Does the 93oct map run more boost than the 91oct map or just more timing?

The factory computer is will allow for more ignition advance to be added on 93 octane, but the boost will remain constant on both 91 and 93.

Originally Posted by Cadence

-Did anyone ever check the EGTs before and after a PROcede install?
?

I know Shiv has read the EGTs, I don't have any of the actual numbers on hand, but I do remember being surprised, as to how easy they were to keep in check.

Originally Posted by Cadence

-Does the PROcede remove the 144mph speed limiter? [/B]

It has the ability to, but we are currently not offering that feature because of the liability reasons attached.

[Cadence]

Dustin@Vishnu wrote:

It has the ability to, but we are currently not offering that feature because of the liability reasons attached

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and I like the info except for the last part.

We (335 owners) really need to get rid of the top speed limiter. Surely there is a disclaimer form or waiver that we could sign to get the limter removal feature? So many tuners (APR, GIAC, Turner, Diablo, etc) remove the limiter and I don't think there has ever been a legal issue surrounding any of these. If I order T-rated tires from the Tire Rack I don't have to sign a form saying what car they are going on. If Shiv was to install a PROcede into a car himself without the limiter maybe there could be an issue, but shipping them out it should be fine.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Dustin@Vishnu wrote:



I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and I like the info except for the last part.

We (335 owners) really need to get rid of the top speed limiter. Surely there is a disclaimer form or waiver that we could sign to get the limter removal feature? So many tuners (APR, GIAC, Turner, Diablo, etc) remove the limiter and I don't think there has ever been a legal issue surrounding any of these. If I order T-rated tires from the Tire Rack I don't have to sign a form saying what car they are going on. If Shiv was to install a PROcede into a car himself without the limiter maybe there could be an issue, but shipping them out it should be fine.

They will correct me if I'm wrong, but there is also a concern about traction control when the speed limiter defeat is in play.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Terry335

They will correct me if I'm wrong, but there is also a concern about traction control when the speed limiter defeat is in play.

I don't give a rat's ass if the traction control never comes on again, provided I don't have lights flashing on the dash

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry335

They will correct me if I'm wrong, but there is also a concern about traction control when the speed limiter defeat is in play.

No there isn't.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No there isn't.

So Shiv how can we get the full potential from our 170mph cars? I am ready to sign on the dotted line

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I don't think you can measure the knock sensor directly without BMW software.

The fact that there is no stand-alone knock sensor monitor for the 335i seems to imply some obstacle with their configuration.

Originally Posted by Terry335

All I (and maybe the pros?) can do is look at the total timing advance stock vs. under boost and "guess" if knock retard is kicking in. Anyway doing this is a basic component of tuning and I'm sure it was done.

I wouldn't trust it was done without some empirical measurements, but I understand it is a basic part of tuning. For example, Shiv pointed out that he'd measured timing retard with the Turbo Tuner. Is this from knock or not? If so, the Turbo Tuner effectively relies on the knock sensor for its tuning. No one seems to know for sure.

However, even after you set your tune, conditions are dynamic and monitoring this signal would provide some important feedback. For example, if the car was filled with bad gas for some reason, or started running too lean for conditions (problem with boost control), or got too hot, the engine could be repeatedly knocking, regardless of diligent tuning. The driver would pretty much always be oblivious to it.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Railgun

I've been to the top end of this as well as faster in others...

No...we don't "need" to get rid of the limiter.

Sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say

Shiv, what are your thoughts on removing or raising the top-speed limiter?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

The fact that there is no stand-alone knock sensor monitor for the 335i seems to imply some obstacle with their configuration.

I wouldn't trust it was done without some empirical measurements, but I understand it is a basic part of tuning. For example, Shiv pointed out that he'd measured timing retard with the Turbo Tuner. Is this from knock or not? If so, the Turbo Tuner effectively relies on the knock sensor for its tuning. No one seems to know for sure.

Effectively, this is correct. I've been doing a lot of scanning at various boost levels and have come to the conclusion that the factory system is pretty dynamic. It will try to put in an optimistic amount of timing, and then back it out if it senses knock. Even when 100% stock, I'll see anywhere from 7 degrees to 11 degrees of timing @ WOT. I've found that ~10psi (2 psi over stock) doesn't have a large impact on the timing, but when I go to 11psi and higher I start to see only 4-5 degrees. The turbo tuner runs at 11psi with no other changes from stock so you can draw your own conclusions.

Next week I'm expecting a portable wide band setup in, and will be adding in addl fuel to see how much boost I ran run before knock retard kicks in.

[elucas730]

Do you (or anyone else) have any data on the fuel system, i.e. how much over stock the fuel pumps, fuel rails, and injectors can handle before needing to go bigger (and which component(s) will need to be upgraded first and at what power levels do we reach the threshold)? I'd assume not until a turbo upgrade, and even then...

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Even when 100% stock, I'll see anywhere from 7 degrees to 11 degrees of timing @ WOT.

Is that with 91 octane? If so, do you happen to know how this might differ using 93 octane?

Originally Posted by Terry335

Next week I'm expecting a portable wide band setup in, and will be adding in addl fuel to see how much boost I ran run before knock retard kicks in.

I used a replacement ECU for an RX-7 R1 that tended to run very rich as a safety measure for avoiding knock under higher-than-stock boost. Was really too rich, and rather wasteful, like how they tend to run race cars. Flames would shoot out the back. (Warmed up, it still managed to pass emissions, even with downpipe instead of pre-cat, and just a high-flow cat.)