[tscdennab]

Aside from the Rixster gauge, this feature could also be implemented in Procede or JB4 firmware. They could flash the turn signal lights on the dash if there is timing pull detected. But I'm not sure if they are willing to do this since it would probably reveal some weaknesses

As a Rixster gauge V1 user and possible V2 user, I am repeating my feature request to include a timing pull (aka "cylinder activity") detection system in the gauge firmware. I really don't think it's very complicated, here's the "simplified" algorithm I can think of:

IF (throttle pedal is at 100%) and (current RPM > previous RPM) and (current timing < previous timing by more than 2 degrees) THEN
BEGIN
FLASH ALL THE GAUGE LIGTHTS for 2 seconds
END

This would be so useful for dialing in the car, I wouldn't need a BT tool to see if my methanol flow / mixture is sufficient, etc. !

What do you think ?

[themyst]

Corrections aren't always knock. And you would only be going off the timing feedback of one cylinder. Hardly conclusive for knowing how happy the car actually is.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by themyst

Corrections aren't always knock. And you would only be going off the timing feedback of one cylinder. Hardly conclusive for knowing how happy the car actually is.

Did I mention "knock" ? And did I mention only one cylinder ? It should be done as "right" as the manufactures can think of...this could be a good indicator that your car is running at maximum potential (or not).

[rader1]

Originally Posted by themyst

Corrections aren't always knock. And you would only be going off the timing feedback of one cylinder. Hardly conclusive for knowing how happy the car actually is.

True, but it will give you a heads up that it may be knocking. And if you're not getting corrections then you're almost certainly not knocking so its a little piece of mind.

[themyst]

Considering the BT tool can only monitor the timing feedback of cyl. 1 I doubt anything magical can be come up with. If the BT tool allowed for timing feedback on all six cylinders sure something's possible... Just don't hold your breath.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by rader1

True, but it will give you a heads up that it may be knocking. And if you're not getting corrections then you're almost certainly not knocking so its a little piece of mind.

I have almost 100 logs where cyl 1 looks perfect yet had dropouts in other cylinders. Like I said monitoring advance on one cylinder isn't the whole picture.

[rader1]

Originally Posted by themyst

Considering the BT tool can only monitor the timing feedback of cyl. 1 I doubt anything magical can be come up with. If the BT tool allowed for timing feedback on all six cylinders sure something's possible... Just don't hold your breath.

i forgot it's only monitoring cyl 1
Still not a bad idea IMO

[thebigragu99]

Originally Posted by rader1

i forgot it's only monitoring cyl 1
Still not a bad idea IMO

NO point then !

[rader1]

Originally Posted by thebigragu99

NO point then !

No, it's just not 100% proof positive. AFAIK Cobb is the only one that can monitor timing on all six cylinders, going by what you're saying that would mean datalogging timing on all other tunes is totally useless and thats not true. It's not ideal but its not useless.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by themyst

Considering the BT tool can only monitor the timing feedback of cyl. 1 I doubt anything magical can be come up with. If the BT tool allowed for timing feedback on all six cylinders sure something's possible... Just don't hold your breath.

Timing for every cylinder can be monitored, there are just different command ids on the CANbus. But this is really not the point...the feature is the point. Even the knock sensor voltages are available on the CANbus,those could be used too.

But I would be perfectly happy with only cylinder 1. BT users, JB users and Procede users are using cylinder 1 for ages with perfect results.

[themyst]

Monitoring cylinder 1 can be useful if there is major KR going on, but you can't determine the car is happy based on this data.

Btw the jb4 has timing on the in-dash gauges. If the needle suddenly drops you have a timing drop-out. It's compatible with your GIAC tune if placed on map 4.

The procede does this too but it is CAN DME ignition not CAN actual, so it's usefulness is a bit limited on pump gas and cannot be integrated with your flash tune.

[blisstik]

What are you using to monitor all 6 cylinders? Is it AP? Have you monitored how meth affects each cylinder?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Not trying to rain on the parade but in practice I dont see this being helpful. You need to know the exact RPM, boost, IAT, fuel trims, ETC to understand the purpose of a timing drop out. This car makes corrections in timing even if there is no actual knock. Just blindly having a blinking light wouldnt tell you anything you could take advantage of.

The only thing you will know is timing dropped and you will never know why.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by blisstik

What are you using to monitor all 6 cylinders? Is it AP? Have you monitored how meth affects each cylinder?

Yes, I have countless AP logs with timing on all six cylinders. It is quite inconsistent on a cylinder to cylinder basis. One log will be 100% perfect, others will show drops in 2, 4, 5, others with drops only on 2, etc. Whats important is that multiple cylinders don't drop at the same time or multiple times. That would be cause for concern.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

Timing for every cylinder can be monitored, there are just different command ids on the CANbus. But this is really not the point...the feature is the point. Even the knock sensor voltages are available on the CANbus,those could be used too.

But I would be perfectly happy with only cylinder 1. BT users, JB users and Procede users are using cylinder 1 for ages with perfect results.

The commands for monitoring advance are "borrowed" from the BT tool, so until they release software to allow logging timing cylinder 1-6, you'll be waiting a long time for this ability.

[Brey335i]

You're better off logging. You will install this and then freak out every time it makes a correction. Then you will start to ignore it because of all the false alarms. Then you will have wasted money.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by themyst

The commands for monitoring advance are "borrowed" from the BT tool, so until they release software to allow logging timing cylinder 1-6, you'll be waiting a long time for this ability.

I don't need this ability. I think you should make a separate thread about logging timing on all cylinders...this is not about that.

What I do need is to take the car out at night when I need to dial in the methanol or to do other adjustments to other mods, without taking the clumsy laptop with me. What I also need is to tell early if I just filled up with bad gas, without the need to plug in my laptop and do logging.
Also when I'm at the track and need quick adjustments I would like to see the results without dragging my laptop and having the cabin filled with cables, and taking care to brake softly to avoid the laptop flying from the seat to the dashboard.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I don't need this ability. I think you should make a separate thread about logging timing on all cylinders...this is not about that.

What I do need is to take the car out at night when I need to dial in the methanol or to do other adjustments to other mods, without taking the clumsy laptop with me. What I also need is to tell early if I just filled up with bad gas, without the need to plug in my laptop and do logging.
Also when I'm at the track and need quick adjustments I would like to see the results without dragging my laptop and having the cabin filled with cables, and taking care to brake softly to avoid the laptop flying from the seat to the dashboard.

Use the JB4 in dash timing gauge option for that purpose. Boost on fuel, timing on oil, and then use stealth mode so the gauges only hijack under heavy throttle.

Mike

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I don't need this ability. I think you should make a separate thread about logging timing on all cylinders...this is not about that.

What I do need is to take the car out at night when I need to dial in the methanol or to do other adjustments to other mods, without taking the clumsy laptop with me. What I also need is to tell early if I just filled up with bad gas, without the need to plug in my laptop and do logging.
Also when I'm at the track and need quick adjustments I would like to see the results without dragging my laptop and having the cabin filled with cables, and taking care to brake softly to avoid the laptop flying from the seat to the dashboard.

And the whole point of my replies is that you're not getting the full picture and what you would get from monitoing timing advance is from one cylinder. Take that for what it's worth.

[sear]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

Not trying to rain on the parade but in practice I dont see this being helpful. You need to know the exact RPM, boost, IAT, fuel trims, ETC to understand the purpose of a timing drop out. This car makes corrections in timing even if there is no actual knock. Just blindly having a blinking light wouldnt tell you anything you could take advantage of.

The only thing you will know is timing dropped and you will never know why.

What inputs and DME logic lead to drops in timing (on the N54) outside of reading the knock sensors?

[Joshboody]

Ehh, it could be somewhat useful but doubt anyone would put in the time to implement. I believe any sudden timing "correction" is based on the knock sensors. If it was an adjustment based on other factors like load, rpm, iat, etc then its more gradual. 2 to 4deg drop between consecutive data points is due to knock sensors.

[RiXst3r]

You can use the 15 second record feature on the gauge of timing advance, and then play it back and see if it had dropouts...

Making the gauge detect a specific combination of WOT + on boost + any other values that would need to be met, and then have it look for a drop of timing greater than a certain number of degrees in a short period of time while all those conditions are met... then increment a timing drop out counter that could be looked at and cleared would be possible... but I don't think 90% of people would know what to do with it.

I already get enough questions from people asking about why the values don't show what they expect... all we do is read a value and display it... and if somehow that value is not what people expect, then they blame the gauge, when if fact the gauge is the only constant here... it just displays raw values with simple english and metric conversions, we don't do any special filtering, logic, or anything to "mess with" the readings.

Right now it is simply digital values read from the DME and displayed... as soon as we start doing all kinds of manipulating and changing of the data to fit certian needs or requests, it takes away from the credibility of the gauge. For that reason, I try to steer clear of making the gauge display things that aren't just a direct reading of a sensor or DME value.

-Rick