[N0OS3]

I'm looking at getting the first Oversquared stroker kit made for the N52B30 (3 liter) up to 3.2L. I need blueprints of the engine block and i can't find them via google... help?

I've chatted with a couple of camshaft producers and got in touch with Lunati in mississippi, they say they can probably give me an accurate quote, including research, production, and installation; depending on the need for new bearings, piston rings, etc. Ballpark price he said was looking at $7k if they matched the parts provided from Noelle, outputting anywhere from +50-100hp & 25-50ft.lbs tq.

Noelle motorsports has an undersquared configuration (more torque increase vs horsepower) but it sells for $18k+ ... way too expensive.

[branmace]

This is going to be interesting to follow. Keep us posted

[Gavin@MMW]

It would be best to give them a car and have it be built with the car sitting there, thats how I would do it

[fdriller9]

I think VAC Motorsports did forged pistons and rocker arms for a N52B30. Maybe they would know.

Btw there was another company awhile ago that sold kits too. Not sure what happened to them.

[edirtaynine]

maybe im too old school "import"... but i never liked the idea of stroker kits. although the whole phrase of "no replacement for displacement" holds true for the most part, to me it's a matter of HOW that displacement is gained. increasing the stroke of a pre-built engine does increase displacement, which increases torque and shifts the curve down low to start early, but it kills the revs (in relation to the original engineered design of the engine). i'd rather increase displacement by boring out the cylinders (and reinforce the walls if necessary) to increase displacement, while keeping the stroke distance the same so that i can still maintain the original rev speed characteristics but at the same time still be gaining torque and horsepower from the new displacement. heck, if anything, with the block torn apart, and re-blueprinting all the internals, perfect time to swap out to all forged internals like stronger rods, more aggressive pistons, stiffer and stronger valvetrain, etc... this'll allow even higher revs, yet you still get the added benefit of plenty more torque from the increased displacement.

and then on the other hand... to dump A TON of money, which this will cost no matter what, is dumb imo. better to just get an e9x m3 or even an e46 m3.

[N0OS3]

Originally Posted by edirtaynine

maybe im too old school "import"... but i never liked the idea of stroker kits. although the whole phrase of "no replacement for displacement" holds true for the most part, to me it's a matter of HOW that displacement is gained. increasing the stroke of a pre-built engine does increase displacement, which increases torque and shifts the curve down low to start early, but it kills the revs (in relation to the original engineered design of the engine). i'd rather increase displacement by boring out the cylinders (and reinforce the walls if necessary) to increase displacement, while keeping the stroke distance the same so that i can still maintain the original rev speed characteristics but at the same time still be gaining torque and horsepower from the new displacement. heck, if anything, with the block torn apart, and re-blueprinting all the internals, perfect time to swap out to all forged internals like stronger rods, more aggressive pistons, stiffer and stronger valvetrain, etc... this'll allow even higher revs, yet you still get the added benefit of plenty more torque from the increased displacement.

and then on the other hand... to dump A TON of money, which this will cost no matter what, is dumb imo. better to just get an e9x m3 or even an e46 m3.

The displacement you described that you'd like to see is "oversquared" configuration... (big increase in horsepower/displacement; small increase in torgue/stroke distance). This is exactly what i'm going for, as per the OP.

The only company that did this that i know of is Noelle motorsports in europe somewhere and they charge way more than needed - i think what they do is make the product upon request instead of mass producing a product to sell at a cheaper price. They charge $18,000+ The tendancy i'm seeing though is that the block may only allow an increase up to +0.2L bore (up to 85mm). This supposedly allows for +50hp increase.
The only play with creating a new crank shaft is to increase the stroke length, which is only increasing torque (they managed to stretch out a 93mm stroke) +100ft.lbs.tq in this case.

I'd like to go 85mm bore at minimum for the 50hp, but more if it allowed. I'd maybe increase the stroke by a few mm above 85mm... maybe 86mm or 87mm stroke... assuming +70ft lbs tq. I'd think that increasing the displacement would create too much power on the crankshaft if i didn't increase stroke length so i'd have to get some torque to compensate.

@gavin: i would take my car to mississippi (where Lutani is), but i don't think i could/would leave it there for months at a time for them to develop the kit... this i could totally see happening either winter next year or early spring 2013.

[edirtaynine]

Originally Posted by lync9763

The displacement you described that you'd like to see is "oversquared" configuration... (big increase in horsepower/displacement; small increase in torgue/stroke distance). This is exactly what i'm going for, as per the OP.

ok if u say. i have no idea what the hell these new school terms are.

The only company that did this that i know of is Noelle motorsports in europe somewhere and they charge way more than needed - i think what they do is make the product upon request instead of mass producing a product to sell at a cheaper price. They charge $18,000+ The tendancy i'm seeing though is that the block may only allow an increase up to +0.2L bore (up to 85mm). This supposedly allows for +50hp increase.
The only play with creating a new crank shaft is to increase the stroke length, which is only increasing torque (they managed to stretch out a 93mm stroke) +100ft.lbs.tq in this case.

boring out a block is always custom work on request. unless u buy a race-prepped crate longblock, it's the way it is. u cant mass retail a bored out stock block. doesnt make sense... and on that note, u also cant measure hp/torque gains just from a measurement increase of bore and/or stroke. the numbers the shops provide is probably from dyno testing their offered specs... u cant just add a couple mm's here and there and guess power increase. doesnt work that way.

I'd like to go 85mm bore at minimum for the 50hp, but more if it allowed. I'd maybe increase the stroke by a few mm above 85mm... maybe 86mm or 87mm stroke... assuming +70ft lbs tq. I'd think that increasing the displacement would create too much power on the crankshaft if i didn't increase stroke length so i'd have to get some torque to compensate.

@gavin: i would take my car to mississippi (where Lutani is), but i don't think i could/would leave it there for months at a time for them to develop the kit... this i could totally see happening either winter next year or early spring 2013.

if ur even considering boring out ur block AND throwing in a new crank to increase stroke, ur SERIOUSLY better off just dropping a new bigger engine from like an e9x m3 or m5 or whatever. u do realize when u increase stroke by getting a larger crank, u invariably have to get shorter connecting rods... then if u bore out, u have to get larger pistons... this creates a ginormous combustion chamber due to the ginormous distance the piston now has to travel from tdc to tbc... then u have to port match the head to fit the new cylinders too. then u have to make sure the valves provide enough intake and exhaust evacuation. and obviously to get all this to work TOGETHER in perfect harmony, the timing has to be on point. this one engine alone is practically building ur own engine... not worth it. it's one thing to improve upon the oem...it's whole another thing to make ur own. no wonder that shop is charging $18k for a custom bored out block... cuz it has to work too. (btw, u dont "compensate" horsepower with torque. these two are calculations of each other. just cuz u increase the bore, that doesn't mean u'll have "too much power on the crank". u still get increased torque with an overbore. increasing stroke is just another way to increase power, especially torque... it's also considered by some as the "easy way" but not necessarily the most efficient way.)

dont get me wrong, im not trying to knock down ur ambitions. im all for ppl wanting to get more power from their cars; but im also a realist and just letting u know. best way to start off imo, is to take an engine and take it apart completely and put it back together and understand how/why that engine was built, designed and engineered it originally was first before u try to make ur own engine. if ur really serious about building an engine, u should really take the time to learn and understand basic engine dynamics; otherwise all this mod talk about stroker kits and "plans" to start not for another year is just talk. good luck and have fun.

[N0OS3]

I NEED BLUEPRINTS

isn't that what forums are for... "talk"?

Noelle is not charging $18k for a custom block... they're charging for just the parts, assuming you plan to bore your block yourself. I could see charging $18k for a full bored and stroked engine but that's not the case.

Horsepower and torque is not calculations of each other, i learned these basics and where this comes from in highschool 8 years ago.
Increasing bore size will ultimately increase horsepower due to increased volume for combustion. hotter fire = more pressure on the piston = more horsepower.
Increasing stroke (lengthening the amount of travel the piston makes when pressed) increases leverage on the crankshaft. more leverage = more torque.

It's like cranking a hand wheel. The length of the crank attached to the handle provides leverage, requiring less effort from you to turn it. The force/pressure you put into turning that handle is the horsepower. Overall, if leverage and force is used to turn this crank; whatever you're turning is moved by the torque provided.

Even bore size and stroke (lets say 85mm bore and 85mm stroke) is an even[squared] setup... you will have equal horsepower with torque. Truck engines are designed with a high stroke rate to provide a big torque curve for hauling trailers, heavy items, etc, NASCARs on the other hand are higher bore vs stroke... they keep high speed for long distances so no need for all the torque slowing you down.

^^ this is not trying to insult your intelligence, this is for other less knowledgeable viewers that stop by this topic.


So... back to my ambitions, it may or may not happen... it would be nice but i'll have to see if i'll be getting a supercharger or this stroker kit first. I can see both projects costing me nearly $10k.
My projects were in the works for an S85 swap not too long ago. I still have the 7DCT, but i managed to sell the V10 last month... cost me $10k from ebay shipped and i had to sell it off for $8k...

[Brian_VACsales]

Check your PMs ;-)

[berserkerx]

Originally Posted by Mike@VAC

Check your PMs ;-)

Mike can you please send me the information as well. I started a thread like this at one point and I was at a standstill on creating pistons, rods, and drivetrain options because I didn't know the specifics. I would be very very interested in something like this. I would not stroke mine though. I would just want to up the CR and get a high revving beast of a motor.



Lync from everything I have researched Horsepower and Torque are directly related to one another. Horsepower is defined as work done over time. That's why than Honda's and Rotary motors have good horsepower. I mean the 13b in the RX-7 and the Renesis in the RX-8 can revv to 13k rpms. Its not even that its causing damage by revving to quickly. The harmonics of the engine are exceeding what can be cancelled out by the damper and it destroys the engine above that rpm.

Horsepower is literally figured out as an equation in motors. Its actually a simple one. HP=TQ X RPM / 5250. The way to get horsepower is to get a high revving motor. The way to get gobs of torque is be a damn diesel with an 18:1 CR and don't revv past 3k lol.

[Ateam]

I would hesitate doing such a mod for that amount of money. I believe the stroker kits are largely overrated in terms of increase in HP. If you look at the dinan strokers for the m3 and m5, there are many posts and videos of guys very unhappy with very little power gained compared to what is promised. Even the stroker on the m5 which gains from 5l to 5.6 I believe has true gains of less than 50hp. Therefore from 3 to 3.2 in this engine absolutely will not yield 50. Likely if you do everything perfectly you may see a true solid 20-25 hp gain which is nice but just not worth it in my opinion. Google around and read a bunch of stories from disapointments in dinan's stroker kits

[N0OS3]

i updated the OP with the link to Noelle motorsports Stroker Kit package... they say they can pull quite a bit of torque and hp out of a boost from 3.0L to 3.2L....

[speedfan]

lync,
why didnt you go through with the v8 transplant?

man, you spent $10k on the v8, meaning you were prepared to spend few more grands for the labor & whatnot for the transplant.
I would trade-in the car with that money.

[berserkerx]

I wish that Winter tuning also had a shop over here to tune the car as well. They have a great tune for the car. Lol of course they are in Germany.

Lync did you get your blueprints from VAC? I would love to see them if you did get them.

[e90pilot]

Originally Posted by Gavin@MMW

It would be best to give them a car and have it be built with the car sitting there, thats how I would do it

Well when my engine goes you'll have yourself a car.

[N0OS3]

Originally Posted by speedfan

lync,
why didnt you go through with the v8 transplant?

man, you spent $10k on the v8, meaning you were prepared to spend few more grands for the labor & whatnot for the transplant.
I would trade-in the car with that money.

I haven't spent anything yet... i have the money set aside for this project. I had the S85 (M5/M6 V10 engine) fully built in my garage about a month ago, but i had to sell it because i would never get the same 'comfort' out of the build - like fully functional HUD/check engine lights, other major part demands, 7DCT (which i still have), and other unforseen parts and labor. The engine and tranny cost me $17,500 total and it would 100%+ of that just to tear my car down and put it in... and until i paid off the loan i took out to even buy the $17,500 worth of parts, it wouldn't happen for 2.5yrs or more (saying of course; in 2.5yrs i don't have kids or decide to get married)... so i just cut my losses and sold the V10 for $8k and kept the 7DCT for upgrades i WILL do.

-sorry for the long explanation

Originally Posted by berserkerx

I wish that Winter tuning also had a shop over here to tune the car as well. They have a great tune for the car. Lol of course they are in Germany.

Lync did you get your blueprints from VAC? I would love to see them if you did get them.

VAC pm'd me about they made a stroker kit for an overseas motorsports company. i would 'lol' if it was noelle ms >__<
Mike@VAC said he will get back to me and see if they still have the blueprints for the kit still in the system...
-i'm assuming that if they do still have the parts in the system, it would cost me much less in labor and essentially be paying for materials and labor costs in generally making the parts themselves (vs. paying for time spent designing the kit)

[Ateam]

So you paid almost 20k for a v10 and a dct tranny to stuff into a stock 325? You really think your chassis could take 500 hp? Not to mention suspension, wheels, brakes. Probably atleast another 20k to change that.

In the most polite way, what were you thinking?

[e90pilot]

I'd be really interested to see how the DCT mates to the N52. This engine would really benefit for the extra gears.

[N0OS3]

Originally Posted by Ateam

So you paid almost 20k for a v10 and a dct tranny to stuff into a stock 325? You really think your chassis could take 500 hp? Not to mention suspension, wheels, brakes. Probably atleast another 20k to change that.

In the most polite way, what were you thinking?

When i bought the stuff, i didn't think it all the way through and i really didn't have time to take advantage of the deal i got on eBay. Typically, a fully loaded V10 S85 engine costs $21k everything from the engine cover to every piece of wiring to plug n play. I bought the one i had for $10k shipped so it was a steal on my part. You may see engines like this on ebay, but they all have a pretty significant amount of parts missing or things are broken and they still sell for $7k or more.
I bought the 7 speed transmission later for another $7,500 i had on hand already (from my nest egg).

Also to add, my theory is that since i paid $26k for my car... even if i put an upwards $30k into the engine to get it up to 420hp or more, i'd have matched or outsourced the power of an M3 for less than the price of one... again, just a theory. Eventually, if this car is maxed out on the potential modification it'll just be my track car and i'll be driving something more fuel efficient.

As for the 'can the chassis handle it'... absolutely. Of course, this is assuming that I upgrade the suspension as well... a hard/rough setting on the coilovers, dampers, shocks, will play a large roll in keeping the drive-ability there without gutting the car to install a roll cage. Suspension isn't a problem price wise... $2000k for a top notch brand or $2500 for electronic coilovers. Brakes can still handle the weight of the car no problem... if i put some performance rotors on, i think temporarily i'll have met performance demands by simply having cooler (drilled/slotted rotors) brakes.

**Hartge did this project a long time ago, but they have corporate funding and have access to any part they want on short notice. They typically sell theirs for upwards of $180k or more, but they not only put their stamp on the whole car, but its warranted to function with all normal standards of your average 325i/M5.

Originally Posted by e90pilot

I'd be really interested to see how the DCT mates to the N52. This engine would really benefit for the extra gears.

I read somewhere here in the forums that the transmission is only rated to handle up to 290horsepower i'm not sure if this posting holds completely true, but from reading some of ARMA's threads on testing their new project(s) superchargers, they keep frying transmissions from increase horsepower by +50%...

I considered trading my 7DCT for a 6-speed manual from a 335, but it would benefit a lot from having 7 gears (acceleration and fuel efficiency). I may also be in the market for the upcoming 8DCT from BMW's new hybrids, but again; i don't think they'll handle 300hp-500hp

[e90pilot]

Getrag made the 6mts in the 325. If their past work is any indication of what this gearbox is capable of then here's some food for though: the Getrag 226 (e39 M5/540, e46 M3, and more) could handle 1000hp and 800ft-lbs of torque. Several people had supercharged M5s with similar power with stock gearboxes. The M5 had just shy of 400 HP stock. The 226 had one weakness though. The syncros were weak and could not be shifted fast constantly or when cold without really wearing it out.

[mike-y]

Originally Posted by edirtaynine

ok if u say. i have no idea what the hell these new school terms are.

hmm, that's actually an older term that's been around for a while, afaik.

Originally Posted by edirtaynine

u do realize when u increase stroke by getting a larger crank, u invariably have to get shorter connecting rods...

Not necessarily. If you get custom pistons made, you can relocate the wrist pin and use the same size connecting rod, or even a longer rod in some cases.

then if u bore out, u have to get larger pistons... this creates a ginormous combustion chamber due to the ginormous distance the piston now has to travel from tdc to tbc...

You are getting your terms mixed up. Boring the cylinders doesn't change the combustion chamber size at all (if you don't touch the cylinder head). It increases the stroke, which will in turn increase the compression ratio of the motor. you CAN open up the chambers to match the bore size, but that isn't necessary unless you need the space for oversized valves.

then u have to port match the head to fit the new cylinders too.

This is incorrect. Port "matching" involves fitting intake and exhaust manifold port sizes to the port sizes on the cylinder head, not the actual cylinders in the engine block. You probably mean just porting the head itself, to gain more flow to help feed the bigger cylinders.

then u have to make sure the valves provide enough intake and exhaust evacuation. and obviously to get all this to work TOGETHER in perfect harmony, the timing has to be on point.

Yep, getting everything working in harmony is the called tuning, and there are plenty of shops that can do this, but it isn't always cheap, and the factory computer may not provide enough control do to what you want.

this one engine alone is practically building ur own engine... not worth it. it's one thing to improve upon the oem...it's whole another thing to make ur own.

There is some truth to this. Doing a complete motor build on a honda is going to be a lot cheaper than doing it on your BMW. There is a point of diminishing returns as far as cost is concerned. Especially when there is another model(s) of the same car that already makes more power (335i, M3).

(btw, u dont "compensate" horsepower with torque. these two are calculations of each other. just cuz u increase the bore, that doesn't mean u'll have "too much power on the crank". u still get increased torque with an overbore. increasing stroke is just another way to increase power, especially torque...

yep.

good luck and have fun.

same thoughts from me. Just make sure you know what you are getting into before you start. There is nothing worse than starting a project you can't finish.

[speedfan]

dammit Lync,
You're nut, man!
:-)

Building and/or transplanting a motor is like the ultimate orgy, it costs a lot money & efforts, but it's damn satisfying i'm sure, figuratively speaking :-)

However, you were gonna build the car to track it, then with all that money, I'd just gut the 325i, get some light wheels, suspension, rotors & pads, & I'll have a hell of a car for the track needs & still have enough $ for a beater for DD.

It's more cost effective in maintenance for sure.

With $8k in hand, I'd keep the 325i the way it is for a DD, then get a track-ready spec miata & track the hell out of it.