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      11-01-2006, 02:53 AM   #1
replicat
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E92 M3, adjustable dampers? Carbon Fiber roof?

What are you're guys opinion's on if the E92 M3 will have an adjustable suspension setup like the M6? (Dampening)



In some of the photos where the car is clearly standing still, and no cornering loads are being put on it, the front ride height appears to be different. Examples are the new silver photo we got yesterday, and the black one in my sig. I don't know if they happened to be testing different dampers/ride heights for testing, but either way, good topic to discuss...join in!
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      11-01-2006, 05:14 AM   #2
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I read that the new M3 will have the Flexray high speed wiring network to facilitate the next generation of adjustable suspension. I think it is included in the new X5 coming out next spring.
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      11-01-2006, 06:53 AM   #3
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Great observation, I think it is possible. Next question is: If it does have this crazy technological suspension, I wonder how expensive and difficult to install the aftermarket spring/shock/coilover kits will be? Is anyone aware of aftermarket suspension options for the M6?
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      11-01-2006, 08:21 AM   #4
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Usually pretty much any aftermarket springs will spoil an otherwise perfect M suspension, so it is pretty much adviced against at all times.

Best regards,

Jussi
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      11-01-2006, 08:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
Usually pretty much any aftermarket springs will spoil an otherwise perfect M suspension, so it is pretty much adviced against at all times.

Best regards,

Jussi
The factory M suspension is hardly 'perfect' depending how you're using your car, but I do agree with you that simply replacing the factory springs with aftermarket ones will surely have ill-effects. The E46 M3's suspension is setup as a compromise between performance and comfort, and to that end it's OK, but it still has a lot of understeer dialed in.

With that being said, a properly setup coilover system does wonders for handling.

As to the OP, I don't think we'll be seeing any electronic suspension.

-Adam
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      11-01-2006, 11:02 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK42 View Post
Usually pretty much any aftermarket springs will spoil an otherwise perfect M suspension, so it is pretty much adviced against at all times.


Now thats funny. The M suspension isn't actually that good. Its very easy to improve upon. Keep in mind any factory suspension is optimized for the general case, the purpose of changing it is to focus it more to a specific task.
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      11-01-2006, 11:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Now thats funny. The M suspension isn't actually that good. Its very easy to improve upon. Keep in mind any factory suspension is optimized for the general case, the purpose of changing it is to focus it more to a specific task.
Agreed, theres plenty of great aftermarket suspension companies that can put together a great suspension for the M3. Though maybe Jussi was talking about just swapping out the springs (and not shocks as well)

In any case there were plenty of awesome aftermarket coilovers/matched sets etc.. for the e46 m3 and I'm sure we'll see the same for the E92 M3 :rocks:
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      11-01-2006, 11:44 AM   #8
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The one thing I really do hope the E92 comes with is ARS. This would do wonders for BMWs ability to keep the car flat in corners and not compromise ride quality at the same time. If they did this, and did it well, it would be hard to improve upon.
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      11-01-2006, 12:55 PM   #9
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I too, read about the Flexray technology, and thats what lead me to this question. I forgot to mention it in my post. But, from what I understand the system is going to be used in alot of upcoming cars, including the new 7. It is said that it will lead a way for DBW steering and braking. Exciting.

I'm sure he was just talking about springs, because I had some eibach sports on, and with out the swap of dampers, it was hardly balanced in most corners. With a complete setup, of coilovers and swaybars on the e46, lots of, if not all of the factory understeer is gone.

M does a great job with the suspension of their cars, and they keep it realistic for the majority of their customers. Some thinking the suspension is too stiff, some thinking its too soft. But now most companies including BMW/M, are getting the clue that cars are being bought and then taken to the track more than before, so now they offer what technology has given them. Stiffer suspensions along with a more comfortable ride OR in-car electronic dampening controls. BRILLIANT!!
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      11-01-2006, 08:44 PM   #10
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Perfect at all times???

Have to chime in on this one as well. M suspensions are a wonderful COMPROMISE between sporty handling and comfort. Such a small percentage of buyers ever track so BMW must factor in comfort. So from a pure performance perspective, M suspensions are far from perfect, including damping, spring rates and especially sways.
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      11-01-2006, 09:41 PM   #11
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How could you say that they are far from perfect? Given the circumstances I think they do a great job, example: They have to be built with a little bit of understeer so the idiots that buy and don't know how to drive 'em don't spin out daily. Second, you cannot have a car that is too stiff for road use, because you'll have 70% of the customers bitching that the ride quality is too stiff.

And they do a phenomenal job with the balancing act, trying to keep both types of customers happy.
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      11-01-2006, 11:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
How could you say that they are far from perfect?
BMW insists on using McMuffin struts in the front. They have an extremly poor dynamic camber curve. Because of this the car doesn't have adequate front camber and ends up only using part of the front tires. i.e. observe how fast the outside wears compared to the inside if you corner agressivly. Alternativly they are forced to run a lot of static camber or extremly stiff springs to offset this. There is a reason that all Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, and the S2000, NSX, Miata use double A arms in the front.

The cars are under tired in the front. This in part goes with one. The poor suspension design prevents them from being able to take advantage of wider front tires. We have a lot of weight on the front of the car for 225 or 235 series tires to carry. By contrast the corvetts run much wider tires and weight less. The S2000 also has more tire per lb. Also both run a double A arm front suspension and use their front tires better.
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      11-02-2006, 12:11 AM   #13
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But then again, those cars you mentioned, don't have the market that the M3 does. Those cars can be called drivers cars, and the M3 is too, its just watered down a bit for those big tough business guys that want the car for its name rather than what its capable for. I've said it before and I know you know that the car has a great deal of understeer dialed in.

As for the MacPherson I have no defense for, but it is used in all current BMW models except the upcoming 07 X5, so theres gotta be a reason for it other than to save money.
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      11-02-2006, 12:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
As for the MacPherson I have no defense for, but it is used in all current BMW models except the upcoming 07 X5, so theres gotta be a reason for it other than to save money.
If real double A arms are not to expensive for a Miata or Civic they shouldn't be too expensive for a BMW. Some claim is for steering feel but having driven some of the other cars we really don't have an advantage there.
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      11-02-2006, 01:12 AM   #15
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That has to be the reason, the steering feel is the only logical explanation.
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      11-02-2006, 01:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
That has to be the reason, the steering feel is the only logical explanation.
MacStruts have the advantage of A Arms of having fewer bushing and as a result more feedback. Most A Arm cars I have driven don't have much in the way of steering feedback. The Z06 and civic were the worst offenders. My lotus has great steering feel but since it doesn't have power steering its not a fair comparison.

The other mac strut cars I have driven don't have the BMW feel either. The Evo feels dead, the WRX is somewhat BMW like but too front heavy.

I will trade feel for performance. I don't care what the steering feels like if the tradeoff was severe understeer. Because now all I am going to get is an improved reminder that, yea, the car won't turn.
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      11-02-2006, 11:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
But then again, those cars you mentioned, don't have the market that the M3 does.
FYI, the CTS-V has double-wishbone suspension front and rear. It's a sweet handling car.
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      11-02-2006, 12:31 PM   #18
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Why the quoting of me? I never mentioned anything about that car. Plus, the CTS-V although its a magnificant car, its not in the M3's league, try comparing it to the handling of the M5.

Having double wishbone doesn't constitute good or bad handling. How the manufacturer uses it, does.
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      11-03-2006, 05:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Why the quoting of me? I never mentioned anything about that car. Plus, the CTS-V although its a magnificant car, its not in the M3's league, try comparing it to the handling of the M5.

Having double wishbone doesn't constitute good or bad handling. How the manufacturer uses it, does.

Quoted you because you said cars with double-wishbone suspension didn't sell in the same market segment as the M3. FYI the CTS-V is in the same price range as the M3 and is nowhere near either the new or the old M5's price.

Double-wishone = almost guaranteed good handling on a passenger car (vs SUV or truck). That is a fact.

Also the M6 does not have a real adjustable suspension setup. A proper adjustable setup allows you change caster/camber as well, not just damping/rebound. What the M6 has is an active setup at best, and I htink that's what BMW call it.
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      11-03-2006, 08:12 PM   #20
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Hmm..I never said anything about the CTS-V's pricing or what other cars are in it price range. I stated that, its handling shouldn't be compared to the M3, at all. The M3 would destroy it, in every handling way possible. Comparing it to the M5/6 would be a better matchup for the CTS-V.

Just because you have double wishbone suspension doesnt give you better handling, my mothers civic is double wishbone and it handles like shit. Its all in the manufacturer. BMW uses MacPherson struts and they use it well, sure it may take away from the feel/feedback that a double wishbone would give, but its what is has, and im happy with it. Remember they do this so that people don't bitch about the car. (My theory)

Again, I never mentioned anything about the CTS-V's price market, I was talking about a drivers market. The Miata and the S2000 is what I was talking about, I said that those cars are typically purchased by people that wan't only performance and handling from the car, and once you get on BMWs level you have people that don't care much for the handling as much as the status. And majority rule is that they can't drive so the cars need to be easier to drive.

So thats what I meant about the market. Please read correctly first.

PS. I never said the M6 had an fully adjustable suspension, I said that the damping is adjustable, please stop looking for things to pick on noob.
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      11-07-2006, 05:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replicat View Post
Hmm..I never said anything about the CTS-V's pricing or what other cars are in it price range. I stated that, its handling shouldn't be compared to the M3, at all. The M3 would destroy it, in every handling way possible. Comparing it to the M5/6 would be a better matchup for the CTS-V.

Just because you have double wishbone suspension doesnt give you better handling, my mothers civic is double wishbone and it handles like shit. Its all in the manufacturer. BMW uses MacPherson struts and they use it well, sure it may take away from the feel/feedback that a double wishbone would give, but its what is has, and im happy with it. Remember they do this so that people don't bitch about the car. (My theory)

Again, I never mentioned anything about the CTS-V's price market, I was talking about a drivers market. The Miata and the S2000 is what I was talking about, I said that those cars are typically purchased by people that wan't only performance and handling from the car, and once you get on BMWs level you have people that don't care much for the handling as much as the status. And majority rule is that they can't drive so the cars need to be easier to drive.

So thats what I meant about the market. Please read correctly first.

PS. I never said the M6 had an fully adjustable suspension, I said that the damping is adjustable, please stop looking for things to pick on noob.

If you had to re-write and re-state everything you posted previously, doesn't that mean you phrased them badly rather than I read them incorrectly? "Never said this, never mentioned that..." Ok, I will "stop looking for things."
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      11-07-2006, 06:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
BMW insists on using McMuffin struts in the front. They have an extremly poor dynamic camber curve. Because of this the car doesn't have adequate front camber and ends up only using part of the front tires. i.e. observe how fast the outside wears compared to the inside if you corner agressivly. Alternativly they are forced to run a lot of static camber or extremly stiff springs to offset this. There is a reason that all Ferrari, Lotus, Aston Martin, and the S2000, NSX, Miata use double A arms in the front.
The reason that mid-engined cars use them should be obvious. However, on front-engined cars such as all BMW's, they are inferior and cause inferior handling. And that's why BMW uses what it does.

Jussi
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