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      04-12-2009, 07:59 PM   #1
Morock'N
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DTC problems on the track!

I took my car to the track today for the first time and had some issues. Ok let's start with what I have for power: JB3, intake, and exhaust. suspension: AST coilovers. Track and temp: 55 degrees all day long with somewhat of a damp track. I did my first run with DTC off ( or traction control half off ) 3 laps down and I get a check engine light, car looses power and I had to get back to the pits. Turned the car off and back on everything seemed fine. Got back on the track with full traction control, No problems what so ever and I was driving the car pretty hard. 3rd run I did turn off the DTC again, 2 laps down and the freaking check engine light came on again..!?! got back into the pits and redid the steps above. Get back on the track, no issues. WHAT THE F$#@??? I am really worried and cannot figure this out. What could the problem be.?? The car was running around 250 degrees at all times. Any help at all would be great.
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      04-12-2009, 09:29 PM   #2
Raflekt
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Wowwwww that was my problem and i thought it was the JB3 but I checked with my car with the BT and engine and pump had no problems and I had many codes on steering but I thought it was some kind of codes when I destryed a tire on the traffic
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      04-13-2009, 07:44 AM   #3
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I have run my 135 on the track 4 times and experimented with each mode. My car is completely stock. I never experienced any issues. That also included several hours on the skid pad.

I had several issues in the normal and the DTC mode and those were the computer preventing you from power on rotation. With DTC off (4 second mode), it is much easier to carry the tail out around the skid pad. On the track this translates into getting to rotate the car easier and less heat load into your outside front tire.

Could it be that the JB3 changes some code for self preservations when certain parameters are exceded? To my knowledge the only codes I have seen were related to the run-flats and the TPMs; but, none that caused the car to go into a limp mode.
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      04-13-2009, 03:30 PM   #4
Morock'N
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I don't think it's the JB3 or tires. I had rcomps on but with track being a bit wet I didn't want to risk it by turning everything off. Where are the track guys at when you need them?
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      04-13-2009, 04:13 PM   #5
white911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morock'N View Post
I don't think it's the JB3 or tires. I had rcomps on but with track being a bit wet I didn't want to risk it by turning everything off. Where are the track guys at when you need them?
SCCA club racer, 270 track days, former Chief Instructor, current DE chair, put on 12 events per year, I think I'm qualified to be a track guy. Only four of those days were in the 1 series.

Last year at Mid Ohio, a friends ALMS built Z06 would only go a few laps before triggering the TPMS which put the car in a limp mode.
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      04-13-2009, 05:48 PM   #6
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Maybe the limp mode and DTC on/off were just coincidences. The twin turbo N54 are known to shut down on track due to oil and water temperature and the engine is very sensitive to slight changes.

The only way DTC could have been the cause, is when you're in full traction control mode the DSC was preventing full power to be laid down on corner exit, while with only DTC active the engine can and was revving a little bit more.

We've looked at the telemetry of an E90 335i with SSTT at California Speedway (now Auto Club Speedway) two years ago and it was apparent that the N54 has a very sensitive "limp" mode built in to prevent it from detonating and killing itself. Whenever the water temperature neared a certain mark limp mode kicks in and had to do a couple of cool down laps to allow the temperatures (both coolant and oil) to drop far enough.

I'm going to venture and say that it's not the tire, nor the DSC/DTC, but it's an inherent feature of the N54, especially "tuned" N54 to reign you in when you're having fun. Stock, non-tuned 335i and lightly tuned 335i with WATER WETTER seems to suffer less from this "problem."
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      04-14-2009, 08:45 AM   #7
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My only point -- I have no idea what is going on at the chip to computer interface and I have run the car hard and not experienced a limp mode. I have experienced TPMS alert in DTC mode; but not in all off mode. I feel this is because of the massive heat loads generated by a strong tendency to push in either of the two nanny modes. In DTC it is impossible to hold the tail out around the skid pad, it is easy to get it out; but, the computer cuts power in addition to selective braking to kill yaw. With all nannies off, it is much, much easier to rotate. With the nannies on, you are pushing the front tires around and scrubbing speed under power. I do not recommend turning the nannies off if you are uncomfortable with that. That said, I never experienced a problem with heat or limp in any of the three modes.

My original premise was that this was somehow generated by your JB3. Consider what your JB3 is designed to do, run higher boost over a broader band; therefore higher temperature loads and higher cylinder head temps. You certainly would not want to over-ride those self protect circuits.

Finally I have no idea what is going on in all the coding on our cars, nor do I know what self protect circuits tuner chips alter or over-ride. I just know that some have come to the track with the latest trick chip gadgetry making great gobs of power and also making them slower around the track because of drivability issues.

From what I have seen many of the cars that come to the track with a tune are not set up well for a road course. They seem to be set-up for a drag strip or dyno, where a high boost level for a short duration is important. Case in point.. last weekend, my student came to the track with what looked to be a beautifully prepared 2004 STI. This car would come on boost so hard that it was hard to modulate because of the on-off nature of boost. it would have worked great in an all out drag, and probably made great numbers; but, not when trying to modulate power after turn in or through a series of turns. Brake-Turn in - gas - apex, boost came in so hard with such weight transfer that the car would transition from neutral to big push. On top of that the car was slightly loose on entry, but initial throttle input would damp that out only to transition to push when the boost spiked. Bottom line on this, some tune that makes good numbers may not be good in all venues.
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      04-14-2009, 12:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white911 View Post
Bottom line on this, some tune that makes good numbers may not be good in all venues.
That's a great point. I'm not a big proponent of Dinan products but I was impressed with the fact they actually dialed boost BACK at high RPMs to better drive-ability and also keep overheating at bay. From what I understand, even with very moderate boost in tune cylinder 5&6 just wasn't getting enough cooling so they decided to be conservative.

Another point to add, I haven't seen any N54 engined cars (mostly 335s but I've come across a couple of 135i as well) come to our track event and all the cars that have gone into limp mode has one form of tune or another (Vishnu, JB, and SSTT being the most popular). A few N54s with no engine tune and some combination of additional oil cooler or Redline Water Wetter added have not reported limp modes. Those are some additional data points to consider.
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      04-14-2009, 08:07 PM   #9
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I have tracked my 135i about 8 times since July. The car is stock with the exception of camber plates, M3 lower arms, Breyton wheels and 245 Rcomps on all four corners. Oh and Hawk HT-10 pads.

My car has gone into limp mode twice. It occured at Texas World Speedway on the same medium/high speed corner both times. I was running pretty high engine temps (265-270) for two days straight, but only had trouble in that one corner. This corner happened to be one of those corners where I was experimenting with staying in 3rd gear at corner entry and keeping the revs up, then shifting to 4th at my track-out point. The other scenario was shifting to 4th before corner entry, lower revs, which allowed me to keep it in 4th the entire length of the short straight. It was when I was in 3rd, high revs, just past my corner exit track-out point, about to shift to 4th that the limp occured - both times. All I can figure is that the combination of high temps, high revs, high g's, and full traction control off, triggered the right set of sensors. Otherwise the car has run flawlessly. And I push my car pretty hard and it ia not uncommon to have my engine temps at even 275 without any issues - that I know of yet. I am also running motul oil and brake fluid.
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      04-15-2009, 07:20 AM   #10
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great information -- it sounds like you should generate more sustained g-load, higher revs... is oil starvation a potential problem on our cars? It should not be oil temp because the oil would not have time to react to the difference.
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      04-15-2009, 08:42 AM   #11
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Wow!!! Thank you guys all so much for the great info. I will take off the JB3 next track day and see how the car does. Where do I find this Redline water wetter?
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      04-15-2009, 08:49 AM   #12
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I have tracked my car 5 times the , 2 times stock and I reached 150C and I went into limp mode, then I putted jb3 and
a extra Setrab Oil cooler and now I dont reach to 150C
maximun I reach 135C but I had gotten a half engine ICoN and I loose power someday I will take off the jb3 and track my car with only the oil cooler

Another important issue is that I have a friend with a 135i 6mt stock and he didnt get any limp mode
Mine is 6at

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      04-15-2009, 10:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raflekt View Post
someday I will take off the jb3 and track my car with only the oil cooler
No need to remove the JB3. Just set it to map 0 and you will be back to stock.
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      04-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raflekt View Post
I have tracked my car 5 times the , 2 times stock and I reached 150C and I went into limp mode, then I putted jb3 and
a extra Setrab Oil cooler and now I dont reach to 150C
maximun I reach 135C but I had gotten a half engine ICoN and I loose power someday I will take off the jb3 and track my car with only the oil cooler

Another important issue is that I have a friend with a 135i 6mt stock and he didnt get any limp mode
Mine is 6at

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It is important to keep in mind that it isn't always oil temperature triggering limp mode at the track. I'm seeing more consistent coolant temperature triggering limp mode than oil.
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      04-15-2009, 01:19 PM   #15
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No need to remove the JB3. Just set it to map 0 and you will be back to stock.
Good point. I will try that and see how it works.
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      04-15-2009, 01:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkcormier View Post
I have tracked my 135i about 8 times since July. The car is stock with the exception of camber plates, M3 lower arms, Breyton wheels and 245 Rcomps on all four corners. Oh and Hawk HT-10 pads.

My car has gone into limp mode twice. It occured at Texas World Speedway on the same medium/high speed corner both times. I was running pretty high engine temps (265-270) for two days straight, but only had trouble in that one corner. This corner happened to be one of those corners where I was experimenting with staying in 3rd gear at corner entry and keeping the revs up, then shifting to 4th at my track-out point. The other scenario was shifting to 4th before corner entry, lower revs, which allowed me to keep it in 4th the entire length of the short straight. It was when I was in 3rd, high revs, just past my corner exit track-out point, about to shift to 4th that the limp occured - both times. All I can figure is that the combination of high temps, high revs, high g's, and full traction control off, triggered the right set of sensors. Otherwise the car has run flawlessly. And I push my car pretty hard and it ia not uncommon to have my engine temps at even 275 without any issues - that I know of yet. I am also running motul oil and brake fluid.
FYI - 275*F oil temp is REALLY hot. Like, you're not far from warp-the-head hot. I try not to let the Berk 135i get past 260...
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      04-15-2009, 04:03 PM   #17
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FYI - 275*F oil temp is REALLY hot. Like, you're not far from warp-the-head hot. I try not to let the Berk 135i get past 260...
Do you have empirical evidence to show that 275 degrees Fahrenheit is close to warp the head temperatures? As far as I know, it requires significantly more heat to make the materials in the head pliable enough to warp. The PROBLEM isn't the heat but the lubrication properties of synthetic oil starts to break down past 315 degrees Fahrenheit, and as synthetic motor oil breaks down the lubrication properties goes away and the internal frictions cause various components of the engine to become malleable or ductile to cause head/block to deform.

At least that's the way I understood oil temp in relations to engine damage. And the engine shuts itself down (limp mode) at 302 degrees Fahrenheit oil temp I believe. Here's a little post I made long time ago while discussing "limp mode" with E9X forum:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...7&postcount=26

And a couple of charts from BMW showing at what temperature(s) limp mode kicks in to protect the engine:





What is interesting here, is "limp mode" doesn't start until oil temp reaches 302 degrees (150 degrees Fahrenheit) but it kicks in when water temp reaches 242 degrees (117 degrees Fahrenheit). Notice "limp mode" stops at 317 degrees Fahrenheit and full shut-down mode is activated?
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      04-15-2009, 06:00 PM   #18
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I'm not sure I could get the car any hotter than 275. That occured on a 95* day. And when you're running down a Z06, who has time to back off?
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      04-15-2009, 06:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Do you have empirical evidence to show that 275 degrees Fahrenheit is close to warp the head temperatures? As far as I know, it requires significantly more heat to make the materials in the head pliable enough to warp. The PROBLEM isn't the heat but the lubrication properties of synthetic oil starts to break down past 315 degrees Fahrenheit, and as synthetic motor oil breaks down the lubrication properties goes away and the internal frictions cause various components of the engine to become malleable or ductile to cause head/block to deform.

At least that's the way I understood oil temp in relations to engine damage. And the engine shuts itself down (limp mode) at 302 degrees Fahrenheit oil temp I believe. Here's a little post I made long time ago while discussing "limp mode" with E9X forum:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...7&postcount=26

And a couple of charts from BMW showing at what temperature(s) limp mode kicks in to protect the engine:





What is interesting here, is "limp mode" doesn't start until oil temp reaches 302 degrees (150 degrees Fahrenheit) but it kicks in when water temp reaches 242 degrees (117 degrees Fahrenheit). Notice "limp mode" stops at 317 degrees Fahrenheit and full shut-down mode is activated?
You're right, the oil would probably break down before the head and/or head gasket would warp.

Still, I've seen head gaskets go at around 300*F oil temp.... And, I'm not sure if it's because of where BMW locates the oil thermometer or what, but BMWs always read very high oil temps. A 250* oil reading in most other cars is "oh shit" territory, but normal operating temp for ours. Because of that I am very careful with our 1er.

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      04-16-2009, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tyler View Post
You're right, the oil would probably break down before the head and/or head gasket would warp.

Still, I've seen head gaskets go at around 300*F oil temp.... And, I'm not sure if it's because of where BMW locates the oil thermometer or what, but BMWs always read very high oil temps. A 250* oil reading in most other cars is "oh shit" territory, but normal operating temp for ours. Because of that I am very careful with our 1er.

.02
If the oil is already at around 300 degrees Fahrenheit, other components of the vehicle may already be past it's prime operating condition to cool down the engine components to keep the head from reaching a point where it will warp.

265 degrees is where I would raise an eyebrow and start watching my oil temp closely and maybe even back-off a hair with the driving on my car. I read a research somewhere on the effect of temperature on lubricants, and it basically says for every 20 degrees increase in oil temperature past 210, you effectively half the life of the fluid.
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      04-16-2009, 12:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I read a research somewhere on the effect of temperature on lubricants, and it basically says for every 20 degrees increase in oil temperature past 210, you effectively half the life of the fluid.
Very true. I'd like to think that BMW's system for predicting oil life takes that into account... . . . but I'm not betting my motor on it. I'm changing mine early.

FWIW, I saw only 260 on a 75 degree track day. I was short-shifting at about 6000 rpm, however.
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