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      08-07-2008, 12:20 PM   #1
larryn
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Thumbs up UUC SwayBarbarians now available for our cars!!

Check UUC's website for more info.

Finally adjustable sways, and very beefy too! (27mm/19mm)

Triple adjustable in front, double adjustable in the rear:

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      08-07-2008, 01:14 PM   #2
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sweet! I would jump all over them if I could install them myself. My E36 was soooo much easier.

The link didn't work for me. Here is one that worked for me:
http://www.nexternal.com/uuc/Product674
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      08-07-2008, 01:17 PM   #3
larryn
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Thanks for the link update. Updating first post.
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      08-08-2008, 07:56 AM   #4
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I know a few people on the boards have gotten the rear replaced. What was the general cost. I usually do all my own work, but if the price isn't bad I may just pay to have the rear done.
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      08-08-2008, 08:15 AM   #5
larryn
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I ordered both, but for autocross (my main driving sport) it's my driving style to have the front stiff and the rear not stiff (including not even having a rear sway). I'll install that myself.. done a bunch of them, and it's pretty easy. Just make sure the entire front end is equally off the ground, because it puts too much pressure on the end links to get it bolted back in.

I plan on installing the front, setting it to full stiff, and not even installing the rear for now. That tiny piece of spaghetti in back will stay attached.

If I find I do want to put the rear sway in, I'll either invite a few friends over and do it myself, or pay the ~$300 to have it installed.
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      08-08-2008, 09:22 AM   #6
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SO what would you guys recommend to get if you want to improve the handling for everyday driving? Would you recommend getting both?

Chris
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      08-08-2008, 09:28 AM   #7
larryn
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It's only a $20 penalty to buy them separately. I would start with the fronts. You can install those yourself, if you are remotely able to hold a wrench. The rears are much more difficult to install, as you have to lower the rear subframe about 3" to maneuver the old sway out and the new sway in. Probably best left for a shop to do.
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      08-08-2008, 10:33 AM   #8
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Adding a stiffer sway up front should make the understeerworse right? Or am I crazy or maybe this car behaves counter to conventional wisdom?
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      08-08-2008, 11:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherifftruman View Post
Adding a stiffer sway up front should make the understeerworse right? Or am I crazy or maybe this car behaves counter to conventional wisdom?
BMW McStrut front suspensions generally behave counter-intuitively with the common theory regarding swaybars. Why? Reducing front body roll significantly reduces dynamic camber change to positive, thereby increasing grip.
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      08-08-2008, 01:08 PM   #10
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sweet, I'll be ordering soon. I just need to nail down what suspension I'm doing.
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      08-08-2008, 04:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
BMW McStrut front suspensions generally behave counter-intuitively with the common theory regarding swaybars. Why? Reducing front body roll significantly reduces dynamic camber change to positive, thereby increasing grip.
What mikeo said!

Plus, I have ~-1.6deg front camber, and I'm lowered with sticky 245's up front. I need to get more flat up front in the corners for more traction. I'm hoping for a fairly razor sharp turn in. Right now, I don't have any understeer, unless I'm carrying way too much speed and way overcook a corner.
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      08-08-2008, 08:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
BMW McStrut front suspensions generally behave counter-intuitively with the common theory regarding swaybars. Why? Reducing front body roll significantly reduces dynamic camber change to positive, thereby increasing grip.
Wrong.
If you increase the roll stiffness of the rear axle by the same ammount of Nm/rad, the stabilized roll value wil be, of course, reduced by the same quantity (so same camber gain).

Maybe what you were searching for was not reduction of stabilized understeer gradient... so you did not find it by stiffening the rear end. :wink:

Bye.
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      08-09-2008, 10:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince ///M View Post
Wrong.
If you increase the roll stiffness of the rear axle by the same ammount of Nm/rad, the stabilized roll value wil be, of course, reduced by the same quantity (so same camber gain).

Maybe what you were searching for was not reduction of stabilized understeer gradient... so you did not find it by stiffening the rear end. :wink:
We were talking about the front suspension, and in that regard my comments are accurate.
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      08-09-2008, 11:05 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
We were talking about the front suspension, and in that regard my comments are accurate.
Nope, because you can not separe roll behaviour on the front axle from the rear one.

So, in terms of dynamic camber gain, there is no difference if you stiffen the front or rear suspension (by the same ammount), because the overall roll stiffness of the vehicle will become the same. :wink:

Bye.
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      08-09-2008, 11:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince ///M View Post
Nope, because you can not separe roll behaviour on the front axle from the rear one.

So, in terms of dynamic camber gain, there is no difference if you stiffen the front or rear suspension (by the same ammount), because the overall roll stiffness of the vehicle will become the same. :wink:

Bye.
OK. Let's put theory aside and talk experience. Are you saying that increasing the swaybar stiffness in the front does or does not effect understeer, and if so, how?
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      08-10-2008, 12:28 AM   #16
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Don't know all about that cold fusion mumbo jumbo.......but....autocross experience says the big front bar is correct.


Every 135i competitive nationally in DS this year will be running a big fat front bar to help decrease body roll, even at the expense of increasing understeer in certain situations. Understeer can be dealt with to some degree using specific tire sizes and different tire pressures front and rear. Body roll is a killer and only can be minimized with a big front sway bar (and adj dampers) in "stock" class RWD cars.

Stock class has a lot of limitations so big front bars are like "band aids" in place of 600 lbs springs/coilovers, camber plates, etc.:smile:
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      08-10-2008, 08:05 AM   #17
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That's right, MINI135i. And even racers that are not limited to front bar only changes due to stock class rules always go with very large front bars, even those running massive spring rates, camber plates, and big-dollar dampers. It is just the way to deal with BMW McStrut front suspensions, which in deference to Prince ///M, are attached to the rest of the car. :wink:
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      08-12-2008, 08:47 PM   #18
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Hiya,

Forgive my ignorance regarding technical matters, but can somebody explain to me in simple terms what the difference is between a strut brace (ie one fitted across the suspension tops above the engine) and these sway bars? Do they basically have the same functions or are they complementary and would one ideally get both? I've been thinking about a strut brace but maybe I should get these instead?

Thanks

Jack
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      08-12-2008, 08:59 PM   #19
larryn
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Very different function, Jack.

A Strut brace on modern BMWs are largely under-hood jewelry. The strut towers are much stiffer than those in the 80's and 90's, and are hardly needed, but they look good. They are supposed to keep the shock towers from flexing during cornering, which changes the suspension geometry and could effect handling, if they did flex.

A swaybar is basically a large bar of spring steel that connects the body to the suspension. Since it connects to bot the right and left side suspension components, and anchors to the body along it's middle span, it is designed to keep teh car's body from leaning over in turns, and to apply opposite pressure to the other inside wheel in a situation where the car is leaning.

Obviously, the larger and stiffer the bar, the less lean you get, but it can be in lieu of a slightly stiffer ride. However it's a far less stiffer ride than if you put coilovers and 700lb racing springs on.

I'm hoping mine show up shortly so that I can install 'em this weekend.
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      08-12-2008, 09:48 PM   #20
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Thanks Larryn.

I'm not going to be taking mine on track, but I'd be looking to reduce body-roll for 'spirited' driving on the road. Do you think I should forget about a strut-brace and get a set of these sway bars - maybe front-only to start with?

Thanks
Jack
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      08-12-2008, 09:53 PM   #21
larryn
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If you are looking to reduce lean, forget about the strut brace altogether.

Different cars behave differently with suspension mods. In theory, I'd say get the front sway. In practice, let me mount mine, and find out what it does. I have an autocross on 8/24 and I'll have them in by then. I can give more definite info by then. :smile:
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      08-14-2008, 08:43 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo View Post
OK. Let's put theory aside and talk experience. Are you saying that increasing the swaybar stiffness in the front does or does not effect understeer, and if so, how?
With the following setup

Eibach pro suspension kit

Front antiroll 28mm

Rear antiroll 15mm

the 135i on STANDARD tires (RE050A 215 front 245 rear) was pushing ont the front like hell in a mid speed track.

...and in no circumstance a larger front bar can reduce understeer in stable cornering.

Maybe, on flat front tires and for autocrossing (1st 2nd gear only) you can sacrifice corering speed in order to have better traction, so the large front bar is good for your car use.

We do the same thing on very powerful car also in fast track, 'cause it is possible to correct vehicle attitude by rear slip angle induced from huge torque (but we are talking of more than 400whp).

But it is not the 135i case... i can assure you that on most tracks (Mugello, Monza but also Varano) a larger front antiroll respect to the rear one is grip suicide (on standard tires) and also on road driving over 80mph it will become a very frustrating setup.

If you want an interesting lecture, follow the link below

http://www.mwerks.com/artman2/publis...-_Part_2.shtml

Bye.
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