KW vs. Billstein

[TazioNYC]

Kind of new to the aftermarket suspension world, but these two, along with H&R, are the makers everyone seems to be using. Specifically the KW V2 and the PSS9/10 -- is there a big difference between these companies and their products, or is it mostly personal preference? What are the differences? Price seems to be comparable.

[Ron@Modbargains]

Originally Posted by TazioNYC

Kind of new to the aftermarket suspension world, but these two, along with H&R, are the makers everyone seems to be using. Specifically the KW V2 and the PSS9/10 -- is there a big difference between these companies and their products, or is it mostly personal preference? What are the differences? Price seems to be comparable.

We sell both, have had both on our car, and honestly the KW's have been superior in every way. They feel more planted they really give that proper sports feel, the Bilsteins are by no means a slouch but they just dont seem to be as sporty.

Bilstein has been around since day 1 - highly respected.
KW's history is fairly long - both of them come out of Germany and have TUV approval as well.

Now lets look at some recent accolades that can compare the two. The M3 CSL that set the Nuringberg Ring time record - had 2 years been with the Bilstein on its last year - they switched to KW's - from the drivers own words it was the only change. It marked down 30 seconds faster! and set the Record for a production car time!

If you can get your hands on last months Sports compact magazine - 1 suspension company came out above everyone in a stock to stock comparison, thats above tein, ohlin,motons, cross, etc - it was the KW's. So that's a little on what side I am on.

[infinitekidM2C]

Great question and answer... i have been really wavering on which to buy KW v.2 or Bilstein PSS10..after reading lots of testimonials and this direct comparison i think ill go with KW.. Ill buy from **********s since they are on this website and have good prices..

[TazioNYC]

Originally Posted by Ron************

We sell both, have had both on our car, and honestly the KW's have been superior in every way. They feel more planted they really give that proper sports feel, the Bilsteins are by no means a slouch but they just dont seem to be as sporty.

Bilstein has been around since day 1 - highly respected.
KW's history is fairly long - both of them come out of Germany and have TUV approval as well.

Now lets look at some recent accolades that can compare the two. The M3 CSL that set the Nuringberg Ring time record - had 2 years been with the Bilstein on its last year - they switched to KW's - from the drivers own words it was the only change. It marked down 30 seconds faster! and set the Record for a production car time!

If you can get your hands on last months Sports compact magazine - 1 suspension company came out above everyoen in a stock to stock comparison, thats above tein, ohlin,motons, cross, etc - it was the KW's. So that's a little on what side I am on.

Regardless whatever you choose let us know -we'll be happy to help you out with any coilovers you'd like.

Thanks for the great reply -- are there any other major hitters out there for the 1 in terms of coilovers, etc... or is it just these two?

[Charles1]

TC Kline! They might not have the big marketing $$$ but they are top of the food chain.

2,000k miles on mine and loving them. They handle very well and are nice to drive on daily.

Regards,

Charles

[Boosted_N54]

I am going to get coilovers also but a lot of people are talking about how good the kw2 are. But That doesn't mean im geting them. I had the bilstein pss9 on my previous car(c230k) and man let me tell you,it was like a car on rails. What's also important to me is that the pss9 are heavy duty,reliable and very strong. Becouse I live in ny and there alot of potholes out here. I have hit potholes alot of times. And never had a problem. so I know they can take the beating very bad and still be fine. from what I read kw2 are great and also the pss9 you can't go wrong with ether or. But I just don't know how much of a beating the kw2 can take on bad road with potholes

[Ron@Modbargains]

Originally Posted by Charles1

TC Kline! They might not have the big marketing $$$ but they are top of the food chain.

2,000k miles on mine and loving them. They handle very well and are nice to drive on daily.

A couple of close friends have the TC Kline on their E46 M3's - I've personally never been in them. They swear by them but their price point is so high they are like $3 grand and up easily. They have custom spring rates, and a sleeve with a Koni shock - Koni builds great shocks. The thing is their price level is just far to high in my opinion.

Again I don't think I can post the Sports Compact information on here as its their copyright. But look at the Motons a $3500 set of coilovers get beaten by coilovers under $2k.

I feel like hey they also make great coilovers - but who has the best value? Plus I've seen the KW continue to stand out above them all and this was done in a unbiased test.

Da _Grk_Tuner - Gotta agree with you my Bilstein's were great, the guys there build a reputable product, I've met some of their engineers as well.
At the same time, I gotta say KW is also just as great in terms of durability and quality. TUV is Germany's certification its far more stringent then here in the US or Asia. They have a lifetime support on their products as well (versus a lot of other common company's who have a 1 year support like say Tein/H&R)

[TazioNYC]

I also live around some pretty rough roads in the NY/NJ/CT area -- still KWs?

[atr_hugo]

OK - here's a question for the group. This is my 'Grand Touring' car, I would like a little more adjustability (camber up front, to scrub a little understeer off - pun intended ; -) and maybe a touch stiffer springs (this thing can get a bit floaty) but I don't want a major compromise with ride quality since it is used as a GT (in other words, it can beat up my wife's fragile back ; -). How do I go about that?

[Ron@Modbargains]

Originally Posted by TazioNYC

I also live around some pretty rough roads in the NY/NJ/CT area -- still KWs?

Yes they are great. You need a coilover thats going to be a stainless steel sleeve (because you get snow in your area and for salt water you dont want corrosion, KW's are stainless steel, you'll be fine).

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

OK - here's a question for the group. This is my 'Grand Touring' car, I would like a little more adjustability (camber up front, to scrub a little understeer off - pun intended ; -) and maybe a touch stiffer springs (this thing can get a bit floaty) but I don't want a major compromise with ride quality since it is used as a GT (in other words, it can beat up my wife's fragile back ; -). How do I go about that?

Well, the Variant 2's or like a PSS9 can change your dampening - so you can adjust it on how stiff or how sof you want. So set it to her settings. If you really want to go for that softer feel then you'd want like a KW comfort. But honestly the Variant 2's would be great. I don't think you need the variant 3's rebound adjustments.

As to getting rid of the under steer although its recommended you have it - its done on purpose by the manufacturer to help you let know the limits of your car, taking it away would be with a rear sway bar. It would really put it towards an oversteer bias. For now your choice is H&R in that department and they make a good rear bar.(once some adjustable's come out you can dial it in) I recommend going towards both - to develop a 'neutral' handling setup.

[Boosted_N54]

Originally Posted by TazioNYC

I also live around some pretty rough roads in the NY/NJ/CT area -- still KWs?

So the kw2 are good when it comes to bad roads? I would like to see the kw2 in person on the car . Who knows maybe I would like them better then the bilstein Lol. All I can speak of are the bilstein and there great . . . . . . I wish I can drive a car with kw2 so I can see what they are like

[BMW135iCA]

Are the bilstein also stainless steal?

Chris

[Charles1]

Originally Posted by Ron************

Again I don't think I can post the Sports Compact information on here as its their copyright. But look at the Motons a $3500 set of coilovers get beaten by coilovers under $2k.

WOW, You must be joking... I just lost all respect for you and your shop. Thanks, I was going to order some CLS for Meghan’s new 328i.

The SCC test was a joke; poor prep and mismatch car configurations.

Shocks are built for different applications and rules (for real racecars). TC builds kits based on Motons that he will not sell for a streetcar. Motons operate in such strict tolerances they offer zero benefit on street or track cars without big $$ in other suspension upgrades and slicks.
This is a long way off from a proper street kit with camber plates that don’t move, proper alignment and spring rates/shock tune that fit “your driving needs” based on actual conversations with each client.

Just remember you get what you pay for. TC Kline’s kits are aluminum alloy not steel or stainless Steal. Stronger + less weight = better products @ a price. Is that not way we own BMWs?

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I have nothing bad to say about KW (TIEN is CRAP STAY FAR FAR AWAY). Just don’t come on a forum talking about stuff you know noting about BECAUSE YOU SELL IT.

Just an honest consumer, with no agenda, providing feedback from parts I race and drive on daily.

I will leave this on a word from Mike.

Originally Posted by ekim952522000

Oh yeah and one more post from Lee regarding winners at this years ARRC. American Road Race of Champions. One of the most competetive Touring car races in the country.
http://www.arrc-online.com/
"Yes, the higher end racing dampers are better than most but they are not necessary. You can do very well with really good dampers that aren't the highest dollars that money can buy. Buying the highest end racing dampers (even good ones) isn't a guarantee by any means if the package as a whole isn't right.

I was quite proud that cars using KONI not only swept five of the nine podium spots for ITA, ITB and ITC (2 1sts, 1 2nds & 2 3rds) but also at least the top nine spots in ITA. I don't know what shocks the next cars had in ITA nor what any ITS cars were using. They were:

1st ITB- Revalved single adjustable KONI twin tube struts and shocks
3rd ITC- Revalved single adjustable KONI twin tube struts front and double adjustable twin tube rears
1st ITA- Revalved double adjustable KONI twin tube shocks
2nd ITA- Revalved double adjustable KONI twin tube shocks
3rd ITA- 8041 RACE valved single adjustable KONI twin tube shocks
4th ITA- 8611 RACE valved double adjustable KONI strut inserts
5th ITA- Revalved single adjustable KONI twin tube struts and shocks
6th ITA- KONI 3011 double adjustable mono-tube race valved shocks
7th ITA- 8611 RACE valved double adjustable KONI struts
8th ITA- 8611 RACE valved double adjustable KONI inserts and 2812 double adjustable shocks.
9th ITA- Revalved double adjustable KONI twin tube shocks

Hopefully I have not given out anyone's secrets and certainly I'll not supply any more info than this as many of these people have their own development involved. That is what makes them fast, not just that they have them but they know how to use them well within their total package."


I hope Lee does not mine me posting this here. I have highlighted in bold all of the shocks that are twin tube.

[Charles1]

I hope Terry is ok with me quoting him.

Originally Posted by Fair

Fanboi Alert! Fanboi Alert! Fanboi Alert! Fanboi Alert!


Well, he had a point. Most companies don't use stainless steel for strut bodies (or other suspension members) because stainless alloys are softer and weaker than most other alloys of steel. Making struts out of stainless is a "bling thing" and something you won't ever find on high end racing shocks.

Go look up some materials characteristics of 304, 316 or the 400 series stainless alloys. These alloys are considerably softer and weaker than 4000-5000 series alloy steels, so they have to make their strut bodies and flanges thicker to meet the same test and durability standards. Meaning: heavier. I can show you scale weights of a KW vs. another company's identical strut body that's significantly lighter, if you like... and I can show you examples of bent stainless steel strut bodies and mounting flanges, too. .

Please take a look at ATA they build some great kits too.

www.vorshlag.com - www.ast-usa.com

[m3bs]

Charles1, what is the range of height adjustment on the TCK setup? I want my car a little stiffer, and want better damping control, but I don't want to lower the car much. The stock ride height suits me just fine.

[Charles1]

M3bs, The struts are about 1" shorter than stock but with stiffer springs. You can have the car sit about 1/2" - 3" lower than stock.

If you really interested when ordering you can request 1" taller springs allowing for a bit better ride. Although I daily drive my car on the crappy LA freeway with no issues. Must PPL think the car rides better than stock.

Send from an iPhone - sorry for any errors

Regards,

Charles.

[mikeo]

Charles has done his homework folks. I'll add my opinions for the OP. I've used the following shocks, not coilovers, KYB (911T p-car), Bilstein Sport (BMW 540i), and Koni Sport Single Adjustable BMW E36 M3). Ranked thusly:

1. Koni Sport SA
2. Bilstein Sport
3. KYB

Personally, I feel coilovers are overkill for a street car that does not see some track/autocross use. Most owners buy c/o setups to lower the car--period. The adjustablity of most c/o setups is a double edged sword unless you know what you are doing and need/want to fiddle with suspension dynamics. For street only cars spring/shock combos are equally effective at lowering and more economical. My experience with coilovers was with Ground Control and they were awesome on the track, but not very good for street even on full soft shock adjustment.

Hugo, you may being looking for almost exactly the same thing I'd like to do with my car.

1. H&R OE Sport springs. 1" lower all around and about 15% stiffer than OE. If you loath the idea of the 1" drop skip the springs and go straight to #2.
2. Koni struts/shocks. I'm looking at Sport SA, but you'd likely not need adjustability, so 2100 FSD or even the new STR.T Street model if they come out with a 1-Series fitment.

I'm thinking for your kind of GT driving aftermarket sways are not necessary. If there is still too much understeer with the above setup (which I doubt) you could add adjustable Vorshlag camber plates for ultimate flexibility (I'll need them for street to autocross adjustment).

[atr_hugo]

Mike - I think you're onto it - what I want is to absorb some of the wallow I detect from the soft springs - but not so much that my wife complains. I'm thinking a bit more tire in front (225) and some negative camber in the front would be sufficient to remove some of the understeer. I'm already running a +3 lbs tire pressure differential front to rear.

[Charles1]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Charles has done his homework folks. I'll add my opinions for the OP. I've used the following shocks, not coilovers, KYB (911T p-car), Bilstein Sport (BMW 540i), and Koni Sport Single Adjustable BMW E36 M3). Ranked thusly:

1. Koni Sport SA
2. Bilstein Sport
3. KYB

Personally, I feel coilovers are overkill for a street car that does not see some track/autocross use. Most owners buy c/o setups to lower the car--period. The adjustablity of most c/o setups is a double edged sword unless you know what you are doing and need/want to fiddle with suspension dynamics. For street only cars spring/shock combos are equally effective at lowering and more economical. My experience with coilovers was with Ground Control and they were awesome on the track, but not very good for street even on full soft shock adjustment.

Hugo, you may being looking for almost exactly the same thing I'd like to do with my car.

1. H&R OE Sport springs. 1" lower all around and about 15% stiffer than OE. If you loath the idea of the 1" drop skip the springs and go straight to #2.
2. Koni struts/shocks. I'm looking at Sport SA, but you'd likely not need adjustability, so 2100 FSD or even the new STR.T Street model if they come out with a 1-Series fitment.

I'm thinking for your kind of GT driving aftermarket sways are not necessary. If there is still too much understeer with the above setup (which I doubt) you could add adjustable Vorshlag camber plates for ultimate flexibility (I'll need them for street to autocross adjustment).

Thanks Mikeo, I have ordered H&R/Koni kit for Meghan's 328. I think it will be a perfect for the street.

Happy drive.

[Jack (LA)]

Originally Posted by atr_hugo

Mike - I think you're onto it - what I want is to absorb some of the wallow I detect from the soft springs - but not so much that my wife complains. I'm thinking a bit more tire in front (225) and some negative camber in the front would be sufficient to remove some of the understeer. I'm already running a +3 lbs tire pressure differential front to rear.

I agree with Charles and Mike on many of their points. I also had the privilege of meeting Charles and got a chance to drive his car....the ride quality was better than stock and very comfortable on LA city streets. Handling was fantastic, although I came no where close to pushing the car. I'm sure that his Koni setup will be great on track as well. :thumbup:

For my needs, which were/are the same as Hugo's, I decided to go with the KW V2's and have been thrilled with how they have transformed the car. Ride quality is better than stock, handling has improved significantly and gone is that "wallowing sensation". Of course, I don't plan on doing any significant tracking with the 135, as I have a dedicated track car and by comparison the 135 is a FAT PIG! :biggrin:

I was considering Charles' Koni setup, but decided, given my intended use of the car, that it was overkill and that spending $1500 vs $3800 installed was the way to go. Of course, my race shop did the install/alignment/corner balance for gratis so the price comparison above isn't really fair.

I'm sure that the Bilstein's PSS9/10's will be great for primarily street use. My experience over the years with just doing lowering springs has never proven satisfactory. I'd rather go with a quality manufacturer's coil over setup, where they match the spring rates to the valving of the shocks. Just my 2 cents and probably worth less.

[atr_hugo]

Jack - thanks - I've had very good experiences with monotube shocks - went on a Ford Lightning press event a few years back when they switched from twin tube shocks to monotubes and the tranformation was incredible. One of the reasons I like the Bilsteins.

[TazioNYC]

Originally Posted by Jack (LA)

I agree with Charles and Mike on many of their points. I also had the privilege of meeting Charles and got a chance to drive his car....the ride quality was better than stock and very comfortable on LA city streets. Handling was fantastic, although I came no where close to pushing the car. I'm sure that his Koni setup will be great on track as well. :thumbup:

For my needs, which were/are the same as Hugo's, I decided to go with the KW V2's and have been thrilled with how they have transformed the car. Ride quality is better than stock, handling has improved significantly and gone is that "wallowing sensation". Of course, I don't plan on doing any significant tracking with the 135, as I have a dedicated track car and by comparison the 135 is a FAT PIG! :biggrin:

I was considering Charles' Koni setup, but decided, given my intended use of the car, that it was overkill and that spending $1500 vs $3800 installed was the way to go. Of course, my race shop did the install/alignment/corner balance for gratis so the price comparison above isn't really fair.

I'm sure that the Bilstein's PSS9/10's will be great for primarily street use. My experience over the years with just doing lowering springs has never proven satisfactory. I'd rather go with a quality manufacturer's coil over setup, where they match the spring rates to the valving of the shocks. Just my 2 cents and probably worth less.

Thanks for all of the great comments here -- this is a super thread. What I'm really looking for is better handling, ride is secondary, though the set-up must be strong enough to deal with metro streets/highways (like NYC/LA). Basically, get me as close as you can to your Lotus, about which I have finally come to grips with the sad fact that I will never be able to fit in one (I'm 6'6", long of leg)...so maybe I can get the 1er to be the next best (FATTER) thing. Do the KWs make it more kart-like?

A side note -- I was driving along on the Meritt Parkway, which is about as excellent a highway as we have on the East Coast (hilly, pretty, great turns, generally alert drivers), and all of a sudden, an Exige rips past. There's moderate traffic, but i was bored and thought I would try to keep up. I've driven this road many times, and done my share of slicing through traffic, but this car was something else. The closest comparison I could make it it was like a gnat moving in and out of traffic. I don't think I've ever been as impressed with a street car's performance as I was watching this guy (who obviously also knew what he was doing) take off. So I aborted my pursuit and started fiddling with the radio instead. :biggrin: