BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-23-2008, 07:17 AM   #1
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

n54 power limitations

after doing some research on the N54 power plant it would seem that we have a couple tiny motorcycle turbos boosting our motor. Also it has been stated that our fuel system and injectors are operating at 80-85 duty cycle on the procede flash according to shiv.
It is very clear why the N54 has no turbo lag, its not a revolution. Its a choise bmw made, not unlike the choise nissan made when it designed the 300zx turbo. The choise being to create a car the performs like a larger displacment motor while displaying non of the drawbacks in drivability that come with a turbo motor. While BMW has done an exelent job engineering this motor to the job they intended it to do they really didn't leave much on the table to exploit.
Most tuners are already tapering off boost at high RPM's in order to keep the little turbos from blowing so much hot air that they stop producing more power. Due the the large expense involved in swapping turbo's and upgrading new direct injection fuel systems. It seams apperant that due to the N54's design, large power levels will be difficult to attain.
I have not yet been able to attain flow maps for the turbos to do the math on power available through these turbo's but I would not be surprised if even the current boost levels offered by most tunes where well out of the efficency range offered by these turbo units.

The costs associated with upgrading a twin turbo system that has been designed in this fashion will be beyond the relm of which most enthusiests will be willing to go. in the relm of 6000.00 plus many hours of labor at a minumum. More expensive than a turbo kit for a non turbo car

just somthing to think about if you are interested in upgrading your engine for big power. this is not the next 2JZGTE

damn i wish this forum had a spelling tool
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 07:41 AM   #2
JB135i
Lieutenant
17
Rep
478
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SW burbs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mprhead5 View Post
damn i wish this forum had a spelling tool
Type your post in MS word and then paste it into the box.

But good post...
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 08:36 AM   #3
Crowley
Major
54
Rep
1,015
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mprhead5 View Post
after doing some research on the N54 power plant it would seem that we have a couple tiny motorcycle turbos boosting our motor. Also it has been stated that our fuel system and injectors are operating at 80-85 duty cycle on the procede flash according to shiv.
It is very clear why the N54 has no turbo lag, its not a revolution. Its a choise bmw made, not unlike the choise nissan made when it designed the 300zx turbo. The choise being to create a car the performs like a larger displacment motor while displaying non of the drawbacks in drivability that come with a turbo motor. While BMW has done an exelent job engineering this motor to the job they intended it to do they really didn't leave much on the table to exploit.
Most tuners are already tapering off boost at high RPM's in order to keep the little turbos from blowing so much hot air that they stop producing more power. Due the the large expense involved in swapping turbo's and upgrading new direct injection fuel systems. It seams apperant that due to the N54's design, large power levels will be difficult to attain.
I have not yet been able to attain flow maps for the turbos to do the math on power available through these turbo's but I would not be surprised if even the current boost levels offered by most tunes where well out of the efficency range offered by these turbo units.

The costs associated with upgrading a twin turbo system that has been designed in this fashion will be beyond the relm of which most enthusiests will be willing to go. in the relm of 6000.00 plus many hours of labor at a minumum. More expensive than a turbo kit for a non turbo car

just somthing to think about if you are interested in upgrading your engine for big power. this is not the next 2JZGTE

damn i wish this forum had a spelling tool

While all of this is true, I don't think that your statement on how much people may be willing to spend to attain power is true ... maybe initially it will be, but as people experiment and we see the results and there are ways shown on how to make power and how reliable it may be, more people will be willing to spend a little more ... it will help to see what the "Pioneers" do ...

Also .. as you begin to mod, it all adds up .. I was suprised to see in my 04 cobra that after all was said and done (including parts and laber .. and wheels etc) .. I spent close to 10k for mods.

BTW .. you can get this: http://www.iespell.com/download.php

It will integrate and you can spell check here ... (unfortunately we block these downloads at work, so I can't use it ... grrr)

Crowley
__________________


The last words on the powerplant should go to a clearly overwhelmed Hormazd Sorabjee, editor and publisher of Autocar India: “There is something simply magical about BMW’s in-line six. It has a creamy smoothness that makes velvet feel like sandpaper.”
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 09:03 AM   #4
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

yea I have lots of free time at work these days but no spell check. due to the fact we are dealing with a bmw here I imagine its going to be in the realm of 8,000-10,000 to really upgrade for big power. I'm not saying that people won't do it but it is beyond the level to which you can resale the car as it sits without major loss of investment money. there are always people willing to go that extra mile for serious power. This motor as it sits in the car though is not Ideal for such applications like some other cars are I.E 4g63 equipped cars, and other cars with large displacement NA motors like corvette and the upcoming camaro.

this chasis is well suited for mild upgrades, a 350-380 whp 135 will be a really nice car for a daily driver. It won't cost an arm and a leg or require the install of parts that will hurt the resalability of the car when that time comes.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 09:08 AM   #5
Crowley
Major
54
Rep
1,015
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mprhead5 View Post
yea I have lots of free time at work these days but no spell check. due to the fact we are dealing with a bmw here I imagine its going to be in the realm of 8,000-10,000 to really upgrade for big power. I'm not saying that people won't do it but it is beyond the level to which you can resale the car as it sits without major loss of investment money. there are always people willing to go that extra mile for serious power. This motor as it sits in the car though is not Ideal for such applications like some other cars are I.E 4g63 equipped cars, and other cars with large displacement NA motors like corvette and the upcoming camaro.

this chasis is well suited for mild upgrades, a 350-380 whp 135 will be a really nice car for a daily driver. It won't cost an arm and a leg or require the install of parts that will hurt the resalability of the car when that time comes.

Agreed ... my cobra with the 4.6L Supercharger and built from the factory was very easy to mod and could make big power ....

There is no replacement for displacement :headbang:


Crowley
__________________


The last words on the powerplant should go to a clearly overwhelmed Hormazd Sorabjee, editor and publisher of Autocar India: “There is something simply magical about BMW’s in-line six. It has a creamy smoothness that makes velvet feel like sandpaper.”
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 09:50 AM   #6
curtdragon
Car'a'carn
472
Rep
751
Posts

Drives: Audi S4
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nashville

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2015 Audi S4  [0.00]
I can't say a I agree one bit with your post. Always always with a new motor bolt ons and ecu upgrades happen first. Then the major upgrades. Its not hard to fab up a manifold. If you are a suspension anufacturer how hard is it to make a new application? Not very. Just needs time for r&d. Just have some patience and there will be a bolt up solution that replaces the turbos and manifold for a single or dual turbo setup. You also have to realize that there are a lot less of these motors built than your Eclipse/Evo motor.

Give it some time the people who want 500+ hp will be ponying up the cash for the upgrades
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 09:51 AM   #7
Yearofthe1
An ex-addict :-(
Yearofthe1's Avatar
33
Rep
691
Posts

Drives: VFR1200F
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: N. Va.

iTrader: (1)

I'm just wondering, what kind of limitations are you speaking of?

Are you talking power increases in excess of 500 hp?

The only thing I kept thinking of while reading your post was a thread I read over at e90post regarding the release of Procede V3. During final tuning, Shiv's 335i broke rear-wheel traction going 60-70 mph! IMO, I find this stunning, and everytime I tell my friends about it, they look at me horrified, like "why would you want to drive something with that much power?"

I think the power limitations will be well within 95% of most people's needs (maybe not their wants, though :wink
__________________
135i Montego Blue, Grey Boston Leather, MT, Sport Package, Premium Package, Navi, Premium Sound, Heated Seats, iPod.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

We search for certainty and call what we find destiny. Everything is possible, yet only one thing happens.
-Michael and Ellen Kaplan
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 11:27 AM   #8
asv
Captain
43
Rep
657
Posts

Drives: 135i
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mprhead5 View Post
damn i wish this forum had a spelling tool
Just use firefox

http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:26 PM   #9
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

I would be amazed if they got over 400whp on the stock turbos and 91 octane pump gas. I think that 400+ may be pushing the system a little to hard. If they already have to taper off boost at high rpm's in order to keep the system from blowing nothing but hot air even on a +60whp tune then any more hp you can get on regular pump gas is going to be in breathing mods. If you look at any car that has been designed in this fashion to eliminate turbo lag and boost from just off Idle you will see that the limits of the stock turbos will be exceeded very quickly. I am surprised we have seen 400+ whp at all but I believe I read that was on like 103 octane fuel. I think I have seen like 388 maybe on pump gas and that's about what I would consider the limit I would feel safe running. Even that is probably beyond what i would feel safe running on a daily basis.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

and BTW my car can break traction at 50 under the right conditions on a sudden application of power. I don't imagine the stock run flats are that great. The N54 is quite the torque motor and breaking traction in 3rd isn't that surprising given the beefiness of the mid range. It may also have something to do with the car being open legged. I doubt it would be possible with a mechanical limited slip
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:35 PM   #10
mad chemist
Lieutenant
mad chemist's Avatar
United Kingdom
58
Rep
416
Posts

Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: South East

iTrader: (0)

Spelling tool already included!

Quote:
Originally Posted by asv View Post

When you post, there should be a little button with a tick and ABC under it, positioned just above the smiles images.

Thats your spell checker!

Mad Chemist.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:37 PM   #11
E82tt6
Colonel
E82tt6's Avatar
103
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: '08 Black Saphire Z4 MC
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: New Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Bolt-on cars have made north of 400rwhp on higher octane, but 380-400 seems about it from these turbos.

It's my understanding that Helix is alraedy making very good progress on a turbo upgrade. The biggest challenge is upgrading the fuel system.

Also, I think $6k for a turbo upgrade is DARN cheap. Supra guys often pay 15k+ for a streetable 500whp setup. To put a turbo on an NA car, and run more than 4-5psi of boost, you're probably looking at more like 20 grand to do it right.

If a turbo upgrade only ends up costing 6k, I'll be a VERY happy camper! For a good all inclusive system, I'd bet on 8-10k though.
__________________
'08 Black Saphire/Black Z4 M Coupe
RIP Gretta: Blue Water/Lemon 135i. Died to save me.
-ChuckV
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:46 PM   #12
OpenFlash
United_States
1733
Rep
17,960
Posts

Drives: A Lot
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
FWIW, my car easily makes 385-390whp on 91oct fuel. I supect on 93 octane, it would push 400whp. And this is still on the stock intercooler which, at this airflow, does have a bit more pressure drop and a bit less efficiency than I'd like. What's more is that it only loses ~20whp by 7000rpm. So I'd be hard pressed to argue that the turbos are running out of steam. And low end power is great. The car is already making 300whp by 4000rpm. Mods are full catless exhaust/dp, dual cone intakes and PROcede v3.

Shiv
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:52 PM   #13
Indykid
New Member
0
Rep
25
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Apr 2008

iTrader: (0)

I'd have to disagree that supra owners often pay 15k for a streetable 500whp. But yes, 6k for a turbo upgrade would be very reasonable.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 01:57 PM   #14
Crowley
Major
54
Rep
1,015
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
FWIW, my car easily makes 385-390whp on 91oct fuel. I supect on 93 octane, it would push 400whp. And this is still on the stock intercooler which, at this airflow, does have a bit more pressure drop and a bit less efficiency than I'd like. What's more is that it only loses ~20whp by 7000rpm. So I'd be hard pressed to argue that the turbos are running out of steam. And low end power is great. The car is already making 300whp by 4000rpm. Mods are full catless exhaust/dp, dual cone intakes and PROcede v3.

Shiv

Shiv,

Do you have any dynographs of your car .. I'd love to see the curves and a/f..

thanks,
Crowley
__________________


The last words on the powerplant should go to a clearly overwhelmed Hormazd Sorabjee, editor and publisher of Autocar India: “There is something simply magical about BMW’s in-line six. It has a creamy smoothness that makes velvet feel like sandpaper.”
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 02:05 PM   #15
JBurer
Private First Class
16
Rep
144
Posts

Drives: 2008 135i, 1991 911 Turbo
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Shiv,
How have you tested the intercooler for pressure drop and efficiency?
Best,
John

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
FWIW, my car easily makes 385-390whp on 91oct fuel. I supect on 93 octane, it would push 400whp. And this is still on the stock intercooler which, at this airflow, does have a bit more pressure drop and a bit less efficiency than I'd like. What's more is that it only loses ~20whp by 7000rpm. So I'd be hard pressed to argue that the turbos are running out of steam. And low end power is great. The car is already making 300whp by 4000rpm. Mods are full catless exhaust/dp, dual cone intakes and PROcede v3.

Shiv
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 02:20 PM   #16
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

Shiv. how much of that power is the fact your running catless? I would suspect that the removal of the cat has a decent performance gain associated with it but a lot of people, myself included aren't going to be able or willing to go that far. I bet if you keep the cat your back down into the 380's on pump. I can't speak as to the restrictiveness of the inter-cooler. In the applications that i have experience in the inter-cooler upgrades where mostly just a heat soak deterrent and didn't yield much if any power gain. However considering the size of the turbo's every little bit of restriction you can get rid of will help them out.

right now the main drawback to purchasing this car that may sway me towards something with a little more potential Is I'm unsure that these stock turbo's can handle that kind of strain under daily thrashing. seems there haven't been any failures yet but the motor hasn't been tested at these power levels for long yet.

Shiv. do you think that the N54 can handle 380-400whp under daily thrashing, and I do mean thrashing in 100+ degree weather on 91 octane? And do you feel that the power drop off in the upper revs is due to air flow restriction or the turbo's boosting past their efficiency zone?

I eagerly await your position on this as it is taxing my brain and I trust your judgment on this as I know you have more experience than I do with this power plant.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 02:37 PM   #17
FleaDog
Enlisted Member
0
Rep
38
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

What will ultimately show is how the 'hardware' responds to the power: block, rings, pistons, clutch, diff/tranny, axles, etc..., over time.

If the above can reliably take 400WHP, than were likely just looking at the bolt-ons (fuel pump, air intake, turbo, software, exhaust, injectors, tuning, etc.) which shouldnt cost too much.

I presume the leap to 450-500 whp, your looking at other ancillary mods to then accomodate...

Why would you drop $15-20K on top of the 1'er when you could've got a GT-R, z06, etc., if you're hovering in the $60K range?
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 02:51 PM   #18
ARES45
Major
34
Rep
1,002
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

I agree with fleaDog, this car doesn't seem like it is for you. I am sure you are planning on going through the military sales program and judging by your location and branch, you probably don't have long to decide (Don't be offended, just a little interservice humor). One thought is to look into what is available for the N52 engine bolt on, that way you could start from scratch. I am not sure what is out there, but with some mods to that maybe you could have your 400whp. Otherwise, someone will do something for the new m3 just like they have for the previous one it you could step up to the 60k plate, or the GT-R is owning everything in site if you could go a little further up. Good luck, and come back safe.
__________________
"Don't run, you'll only die tired" ~ Gunship Pilot
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 03:01 PM   #19
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

I could probably be happy with the 135 if it could take 380 whp driven hard in phoenix. I'm not going to spend that much on upgrades. Maybe 5k tops. I don't have the stomach for chasing big HP anymore considering I am a working class line rat. I just want to make sure the engine is solid at that power level so I won't have to worry about the tune when I'm thrashing around in the hell hot summer in the valley of the sun.

and no I have no interest in the 128. I don't believe in downgrading performance when i buy a new car.

I don't think a lot of people these days appreciate what a 400hp car really can do. I remember driving a 405 hp NSX some years back and WOW. with 440hp the 135 could be as fast but I don't think its going to be stable at that level given the punishment of my local weather and my heavy right foot. not that it needs to be that fast to be an excellent car. If I can be reassured that the N54 can take the punishment then I will feel better about my impending purchase.

at any rate at least my year in this damn east asia smelly rat hole has allowed me to save enough cash to purchase a car normaly outside my paygrade.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 03:12 PM   #20
ARES45
Major
34
Rep
1,002
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Oct 2007

iTrader: (0)

Have you considered a used ctsv? Not exactly the same car, but they can be had for 25k, and that gives you a lot of room before you get to the 135 range. I only say this because I just had a friend pick one up and it is a great car with an ls6 that has some aftermarket options putting it well into the 500 hp range.
__________________
"Don't run, you'll only die tired" ~ Gunship Pilot
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 03:57 PM   #21
mprhead5
Private First Class
9
Rep
146
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Nov 2007

iTrader: (0)

I think I can say I've considered just about everything. I have had almost a whole year to consider the options. If I was going to go that route I could pick up a GTO with an LS2 for like 22k. in the end its all going to come down to what i see myself driving but this is all discution for a differant topic. I don't want to thread jack my own thread and derail it from the original intent which is to discuss the power limits of the N54.
Appreciate 0
      04-23-2008, 04:08 PM   #22
Nixon
Banned
57
Rep
1,396
Posts

Drives: :
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: :

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the post Shiv, it's good to know exactly how much power has already been achieved with this engine.

I'm not a mod, but I'd personally like to see any responses to questions about your products, or info on your products, or graphs of the output of your products, followed up in the Commercial Sales area. Perhaps you can start a thread there with your response to theses questions, and put a post in this thread pointing folks there.

Just one President's opinion.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 AM.




1addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST