[335i54n]

can you run b58 coil upgrade and still retain engine cover fitment?

[racerbruce]

Originally Posted by 335i54n

can you run b58 coil upgrade and still retain engine cover fitment?

didn't see any mention of using the oem coil cover:

https://vargasturbo.com/product/vtt-...YaAjNbEALw_wcB

[rbryantaz]

It fits with my kit. I have the info in the forsale section.

No modifications are required to the engine cover to fit them.

-Rich

[jadams161]

Yes...don't buy the knock off VTT crap.

Buy the kit from Rich

[GnomeChild]

Alternatively you can go with a braketless install

I always thought you needed a kit to run B58 coils, but turns out you can directly mount them to the valve cover using Intake manifold studs. N55s are not so lucky I think special brackets are required.

That being said you have to source everything yourself for the bracketless install and the final product does look a little more jerry-rigged than buying Rich's kit. I considered Rich's kit and his kit alone; I am not a fan of the single bracket offerings, the individual bracket install is superior and looks very clean. If I had to do it over again, I would probably go with Rich's kit; I just like doing things the hard way

You can reuse your engine cover fine for both bracketless and Fat Bunny kit; I am not sure about the VTT/single bracket installs but I would think you can reuse your engine covers over those too

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by GnomeChild

Alternatively you can go with a braketless install

I always thought you needed a kit to run B58 coils, but turns out you can directly mount them to the valve cover using Intake manifold studs. N55s are not so lucky I think special brackets are required.

That being said you have to source everything yourself for the bracketless install and the final product does look a little more jerry-rigged than buying Rich's kit. I considered Rich's kit and his kit alone; I am not a fan of the single bracket offerings, the individual bracket install is superior and looks very clean. If I had to do it over again, I would probably go with Rich's kit; I just like doing things the hard way

You can reuse your engine cover fine for both bracketless and Fat Bunny kit; I am not sure about the VTT/single bracket installs but I would think you can reuse your engine covers over those too

I looked at doing it without a bracket and decided against it.

There are some downsides to going without the brackets. It removes the stock wiring channel which I wanted to avoid. I also wanted to avoid actually turning on the plastic hole in the valve cover each time a coil was installed. The brackets I use avoid this by going around the tabs in the valve cover so they stop it from turning. With the plate the screw into the plastic just holds it in place and because it doesn't have a force on it when installing and removing coils it won't work loose or potentially crack.

I also wanted to keep the boots short and avoid having to space them above the wiring which could have been done instead of removing the wiring channel but it would have made installing with the engine cover impossible...

Another goal was to enclose the boot and ensure that it sits flat. Getting the stud right could be done with a stud and spacer but I just don't think it works as well as a plate does. The boot and spring length are very important in this setup because these are a loaded spring that has to keep contact not a snap on connection like the original coils.

Note that the connectors shown in the picture you referenced don't actually fit.... They can be forced but the terminals are all wrong. The terminal is smaller than the female spade connector, the plastic has to be trimmed, there is no clip retaining it, etc. I ordered 3-4 different ones from different automotive applications (VW, Toyota, etc) and tried them, they didn't work well.

As with everything different people like different things.

-Rich

[GnomeChild]

Damn I didn't even notice the wiring harness casing was removed in that pic... I see what you mean now though, there is no way the 2nd B58 coil will clear it since the case is the closest one to the spark plug hole
I went with different connectors than the ones they used. I sourced connectors that were similar to the ones you offer in your kit.

I'm REALLY reconsidering my choices here...

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by GnomeChild

Damn I didn't even notice the wiring harness casing was removed in that pic... I see what you mean now though, there is no way the 2nd B58 coil will clear it since the case is the closest one to the spark plug hole
I went with different connectors than the ones they used. I sourced connectors that were similar to the ones you offer in your kit.

I'm REALLY reconsidering my choices here...

It is easy to spend a lot of time on things like connectors down the rabbit hole....

I spent many evenings digging through connector catalogs... I also then waited weeks for connectors to come in the mail and most of the time they wouldn't work (or wouldn't work properly). The proper male terminals are ~2.75 (3mm nominially) wide and most of those triangular ones are only 2mm so they are not the right fit. Sure they might work but they might also vibrate loose. Standard 2.75mm crimp terminals are too thin (.4mm instead of .75mm) so they also don't work well (I looked into a lot of options).

Depinning the stock harness isn't too bad but it is work and you still get a big bulky connector so it is best to just splice. If you want something reverseable it would be possible to depin and just use the crimp on terminals without their connectors and shrink wrap over them but then what is the point? It would be a long stiff section where the terminal is that isn't as nice as a solder/shrink or crimp/shrinkwrap connector because the terminals are longer than a splicer.

It would be better to cut off the stock terminals as close as possible to the original connector and crimp on new female terminals to go back to stock... I can provide those if you really want that perhaps that really is the best option but crimping connectors really requires the right tool. It is much easier to splice with a standard butt connector or solder shrink trust me...

There are a lot of ways to make things work, some of which are more hacky than others. In this case I went deep into the rabbit hole on this project and came up with something that is proven. Part of selling the kit is to offer it to everyone so they don't have to go down the same rabbit hole I was in.

If you enjoy the challenge of getting it to work then more power to you. If you want something that works without spending hours creating your own soln then I recommend getting a kit (even if it isn't the one I provide).

-Rich

[GnomeChild]

These are the connectors I ended up going with
I am not sure on the exact measurements of the pins but the connector itself is similar if not the exact ones used in your kit

https://m.aliexpress.us/item/2251832...andl_shipto=US

As for the harness, I decided to source a second N54 harness and crimp the connectors on with the harness outside of the car/engine. I will then swap my original harness with the modified one. Seems as though I will also either need to modify my harness casing or remove it all together. Benefit of getting a second harness is that I can modify it as I please knowing my original one will stay intact.

If ultimately I can't make it work I may just buy your brackets haha

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Is there a reason people doing this mod? I assume if you have power goals over like MHD stage2+ it becomes needed? Never had issues with my coils but now I'm wondering.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Is there a reason people doing this mod? I assume if you have power goals over like MHD stage2+ it becomes needed? Never had issues with my coils but now I'm wondering.

The stock coils are known to fail and not perform that well after a certain power level (your mileage may vary).

The S55 Eldors are a drop in and much better but not as good as the newer B58 coils. The B58 coils are basically the same price as the S55 coils so they give a nice upgrade for the cost of the kit. I originally did it just so it was one less thing to worry about. Why sped $250 on S55 coils when for a couple hundred more I could have a bigger upgrade.

MHD and BM3 both have extended dwell support for the B58 coils which allows them to deliver much more spark energy than the S55 coils can.

-Rich

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by rbryantaz

The stock coils are known to fail and not perform that well after a certain power level (your mileage may vary).

The S55 Eldors are a drop in and much better but not as good as the newer B58 coils. The B58 coils are basically the same price as the S55 coils so they give a nice upgrade for the cost of the kit. I originally did it just so it was one less thing to worry about. Why sped $250 on S55 coils when for a couple hundred more I could have a bigger upgrade.

MHD and BM3 both have extended dwell support for the B58 coils which allows them to deliver much more spark energy than the S55 coils can.

-Rich

What kind of power level we talking about? That said, the Eldors are 150$ for 6

[335i54n]

yeah didnt think i needed them (eldor, index 12, walnut, 1step colder, only fbo etc) but after experimenting with plug gaps would get intermittent misfire above 6400 once i strayed from 22 gap everyone uses. imo its a must especially for 91acn or e85

[GnomeChild]

The stock ignition system in the N54 seems to be pretty adequate for most people. I personally haven't had any issues with my completely stock setup and plan to at least go MHD stage 2+ and FBO (catless DPs, FMIC, Intake, Aluminum CP). Even so I probably would be served adequately with the stock ignition system but

If there was an opportunity to upgrade to a system that was documented to be twice as powerful using OEM parts, why would I not consider that option, even if it was more expensive? There are reports of people running almost up to a 30 gap on B58 plugs and the benefits of a larger plug gap are well documented (more spark, cleaner/more complete burn, better fuel efficiency, smoother idle). Is it worth the $600 for the upgrade at my power level? Probably not, since I would be adequately served with just the stock N54 ignition, but I am not looking to settle just for adequate

[iqraceworks]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Is there a reason people doing this mod? I assume if you have power goals over like MHD stage2+ it becomes needed? Never had issues with my coils but now I'm wondering.

I'm running OEM Delhi coils and making close to 600hp on bigger turbos at 25psi boost and an E40 mix.....never had any ignition rated issues. The B58 coils have a hotter output than the Delphi or Eldor OEM coils.....but as far as any type of performance gains from that, I think it's pretty insignificant. It would be interesting to see a Dyno pull with OEM coils, and then a back to back pull with the B58's to see if there is actually any gain at all.

I'd rather have the simplicity of the OEM coils vs the B58's and the extra connectors, harnesses, and mounting studs/brackets you have to deal with....but to each their own.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by iqraceworks

I'm running OEM Delhi coils and making close to 600hp on bigger turbos at 25psi boost and an E40 mix.....never had any ignition rated issues. The B58 coils have a hotter output than the Delphi or Eldor OEM coils.....but as far as any type of performance gains from that, I think it's pretty insignificant. It would be interesting to see a Dyno pull with OEM coils, and then a back to back pull with the B58's to see if there is actually any gain at all.

I'd rather have the simplicity of the OEM coils vs the B58's and the extra connectors, harnesses, and mounting studs/brackets you have to deal with....but to each their own.

Yeah I feel like we already went through this with that company that sells their own ignition setup, if we had to change the coils and get significant gains most would have that. I even tried the Bosch ones on my last car no issues.


I guess it's over 600hp you need them but rbryantaz hasn't replied about the power level he mentioned so idk

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Yeah I feel like we already went through this with that company that sells their own ignition setup, if we had to change the coils and get significant gains most would have that. I even tried the Bosch ones on my last car no issues.


I guess it's over 600hp you need them but rbryantaz hasn't replied about the power level he mentioned so idk

I don't think anyone can give a power level. There are too many variables and it depends on the setup people are running. How much ethanol, what octane fuel is available, which turbos, how much plug gap, etc, etc. I would leave that question up to your tuner. The tuner (or logs) will show what is really needed. If you have breakup at .024" to .022" and close the gap to fix it then it is probably at the margin.

What I can say is that the B58 coils have a significantly higher power ceiling than the originals or even the S55 coils and will allow for a larger gap.
Running a larger gap is better for burn efficiency so it isn't as black and white as "I made this much power with a given coil."
One other benefit is that many users are starting to prefer the B58 which are supported by the kit.

I am not going to say that hotter coils will add power because it is not a power adder. It is more that insufficient coils will limit consistency, reliability, and margin or plug gap.


Running at the edge of what works is never a good place to be.... If you are running significantly more power than stock having better coils makes sense.

As an engineer I can say that margin is almost always good (within a reasonable budget). It leads to longer component life and less chances of failure. Having more than you need is always better than having less than you need!

My thought is that if another $250 for something that is proven to add margin is too much money then it is best to stay close to stock power levels.

-Rich

[whyzee125]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Yeah I feel like we already went through this with that company that sells their own ignition setup, if we had to change the coils and get significant gains most would have that. I even tried the Bosch ones on my last car no issues.


I guess it's over 600hp you need them but rbryantaz hasn't replied about the power level he mentioned so idk

LOL I just had major deja vu. What were they called again? Okada plasma or something? haha

[GnomeChild]

I agree with rbryantaz's take on the subject

B58 coils are there to add a higher safety margin to your setup. At higher power figures, MHD even has settings to adjust the dwell charts to increase the spark/power of the coils.

Let's put it in quantifiable terms. This is anecdotal but the story seems to align with the numbers I've seen posted on ceiling caps for various coil setups for N54s

My buddy was running stock N54 Bosch coils on his setup; essentially a FBO car, relocated inlets, upgraded DAW turbos, 91 pump gas MHD Stage 2+ tune. If I had to put a "power figure" to his setup it would be about 400-450whp pushing maybe 20-22psi; those numbers could be conservative I'm not the best at "guesstimating" powerfigures yet based on mods/without a dyno sheet. Even with a 91 oct tune he was beginning to experience misfires and symptoms of insufficient spark. He ended up upgrading to Eldors and all his issues subsided but ended up pushing against the upper limits of what his stock clutch can handle.

He has since reverted to stage 1 tune pushing about 15psi until he upgrades his clutch. If I had to spitball, I would say the upper limits of stock Bosch N54 coils would be around the 500hp range; based on powergraphs for our coils, the Eldors maybe about 600hp. The Eldor coils are not very much stronger than the Bosch coils, maybe about 10-20% IIRC. Meanwhile the B58 Eldors run about twice as much power through the system over N54 Bosch coils. There is obviously more nuance to it that just simple graphs, data points, and raw numbers. As Rich already pointed out, it's entirely based many external factors like your fuel mix, tune, IATs, humidity that day, etc

You could effectively push the stock N54 Bosch very well to 600hp with the right factors, but based on comparative graphs on power delivery, you would be running your Bosch coils at the upper side of their reasonable limits and many would probably have to introduce many compromises to have them run reliably (more conservative tune, not as much timing, shorter spark plug gaps, etc). It's been proven B58 coils are just better in every way, I don't think and hope no one is trying to dispute that. As to what power level they are actually required: as stated before, it boils down to a myriad of different factors, but if I were to guess; probably right around 600hp is where you'd want to start considering overhauling your ignition system completely. Most people don't proactively upgrade their systems, usually only once they've already started to hit the limit.

Even on a bone stock N54, B58 coils would allow for wider plug gaps which means cleaner burns, more spark, smoother idle. You would also be running the coils below even the B58 power demands so they would theoretically last longer; all while having access to increased dwell tables to be able to push them well over 1000hp if need be

$400 or so for a mod that has proven reliability at 1000hp+ and is meant to iron out kinks in reliability and overall drivability; I think most people should consider B58 coils at any given power level/stage really. It might not give you a increase in raw power but it is guaranteed to leave your setup running smoother and more reliably, and that's worth something

[CarAbuser]

I don't think there's any point in upgraded coils unless you have upgraded turbos, it's a complete waste of time and money on a stock turbo car.

I'm also not comfortable with the spring aspect of the B58 kits, seems like a half-assed solution and there's been a few reported fires as a result of poor fitment.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by CarAbuser

I don't think there's any point in upgraded coils unless you have upgraded turbos, it's a complete waste of time and money on a stock turbo car.

I'm also not comfortable with the spring aspect of the B58 kits, seems like a half-assed solution and there's been a few reported fires as a result of poor fitment.

I think both of these are pretty bold statements without data.

The N54 style coils have been known to fail. I have had multiple fail on my 4.8i e70 causing misfires which uses the same coils and it isn't even turbocharged.... I actually carry a couple of spares in the e70 given that I have had failures and also read about many others having failures with those coils. The S55 coils are better so that is an upgrade but they are not as good as the B58 setup. The B58 coils clearly have more spark energy than the stock style coils even at stock dwell times without changing the DME setting to take full advantage of them.

As for the springs... This is a matter of getting the measurements right and just making sure that the spring moves correctly in the boot and contacts the coil properly.

I did see a case where a spring did not connect properly contact the coil and was arcing and that of course burned the spring.

This was caused by a spring that was tested with the older style eldor coils being used on the newer style eldor coils tat have a smaller opening for the spring on the coil side that didn't allow the spring to reach the coil. From what I saw this happened due to a change that eldor/bmw made that required a change from one of the vendors setups. It is always important to verify that the springs are making contact on both sides of the coil. I have not heard of anyone having this issue with my setup (with or without resistors). This type of burnt spring is still unlikely to cause a fire, it will destroy the coil contacts and end of the spring and cause misfires but after that happens it won't be able to arc at all so it seems very unlikely to actually catch fire.

As for fires in general I haven't seen that with a B58 setup. It is a dumb coil so it is only has power when the DME triggers it just like the stock ones. Dumb coils don't have some of the potential issues that a powered smart coil setup could have.

-Rich

[CarAbuser]

The stock Bosch coils seem to last about 60k, but I'd consider that a reasonable service interval given their low price. The other OE options seem to be a slight upgrade in that regard.

The B58 coils are also a service item at around the same longevity but are double the price.

If I was at the limits of the stock coils then an upgrade is a must but until then it just makes sense to stick with something that fits correctly without messing around with springs, resistors, engine cover trimming and cutting up the wiring harness.