[///d]

I've talked to a few friends and co-workers, and they agree with my thoughts on this, but figured I get some more opinions.

I recently had some water damage to the ceiling in my house from ice dams over the winter (I was deployed, girlfriend wasn't clearing the snow from the edge like I had asked). I had a contractor come and look at it, he is a neighborhood friend. He quoted me, through a text, the following:

"Enclosed is a approx cost in cutting out ceiling in kitchen and bathroom, also removing and adding insulation and sheetrock in area of skylights.

Kitchen:
1)remove limited amount of sheetrock and insulation
2)install new insulation, poly, and sheetrock where removed
3)texture ceiling. Matching texture may not match exactly. This is not included in proposal as it's performed by XXXX Drywall and paid to them.
4)clean and remove debris
5)paint ceiling white

Bathroom:
1)remove and replace limited amount of sheetrock, approx 2ft x 4ft area in skylight area
2)insulate using batt insulation, limited area and poly
3)texture limited area. Matching texture may not match exactly. This is not included in proposal as it's performed by XXXX Drywall and paid to them.
4)clean and remove debris
5)paint ceiling white

Approx cost:
Kitchen -$3000
Bathroom: $1350
Labor charges $60.00/man hour plus materials
Drywall cost approx $1200 tp be paid to XXX Drywall."

I moved everything from the kitchen and bathroom. Cleaned out cabinets because he verbally stated they would need to be removed. Everything was ready so they could walk in and start work.

First day they show up at noon and worked for 4 hours. 3 guys total. Cut out the bad material, installed insulation and poly in both kitchen and bathroom. They did not remove cabinets.

Second day they show up at noon and work for 1.5 hours. 3 guys total. Install sheetrock.

Third day the drywall guy shows up. Works for 6hrs doing mudding and taping.

Fourth day drywall guy shows up, another 5 hours sanding and texture. He charges me $1000. Done.

5th day, original contracting crew shows up at 10am. 2 guys this time. 2 hours total painting with cleanup.

Area patched in kitchen is roughly 2ft wide and 4-5 ft long.
Area patched in bathroom was 2ft by 2ft. Not large areas by any means.

The contractor wanted $4150...!!! I had paid $2500 up front, so he was asking for another $1650. I immediately questioned this, put together the labor per man and estimated cost of materials and even being generous with labor and factoring in travel time, material pickup, etc struggled to even get close the $2500 I had already paid. So I asked him for an itemized cost list and he sends me a screenshot of the quote text. I call him and state the labor and materials involved does not match the quote nor the final price. He then continued to say he charges a minimum 8hrs per man per day, because he has to ask them to take time off their full time job to come work for him. When I pointed out that this was not mentioned in the quote, that it only states $60/man hr, he tries to argue it, trying to compare it to other labor charging professions and such. I continue to point out that I do not find it fair or right to charge me $60/man, for 8 hrs each, totaling $1440, for a day they spent 1.5hrs on the job, and when they could have combined day one and two into one full days of work, and that his scheduling conflicts does not constitute charging me more.

One of his arguments for the labor is if you go to a mechanic, they quote you a price based on the average time it takes to perform the job according to their book. If they quote 10 hours, but they only spend 5 hours on the job, they still charge you 10 hours because thats what was quoted. I countered by saying if he had quoted me with an estimated "x" hours of labor, or even by day, and it didnt take that long, then I would have no issues with paying it, but it was not quoted this way, and was only stated to be $60/man hour, and that comes out to "x" amount of hours. And, a mechanic charges by hour, not min hours per day. If a job quotes 9 hours, and they spend 8 one day and 1 the next day, they don't charge you for 16hrs or 2 full days of labor.

After everything was said and done and all this disagreement happened, I offered to pay an additional $500 to try and maintain a relationship and respect between us. He countered with $850, but I said no, stated I think my offer of an additional $500 was more than fair considering the amount of labor that was involved, the delay in when the the job got finished which ultimately left our kitchen and bathroom limited for use for 2 weeks (with little communication on when he could actually make it there, so we left everything disassembled incase he randomly showed up), and the lack of clarification in the estimate.

This offer of another $500 gave him 2 days of 8hrs of labor per man, which I felt was more than generous. This is paying him for 18hrs of labor that was not performed.

Day 1 (removal/installation), 8hrs @ 3 workers = $1440
Day 2 (paint), 8hrs @ 2 workers = $960
His claim at material/disposal cost was roughly $600. I feel that is far stretched but I have not asked for receipts. He claims 3 sheets of drywall, roll of R30 insulation, full roll of poly, 2 gal white paint, and all accessories (brushes, rollers, screws, etc).

1440+960+600 = $3000.

He has reluctantly agreed to the $500 now. What are your thoughts on this? Was I wrong to question and fight this?

Edit* I should add a few things.

When I asked for an itemized cost list, he asked if I was sure and proceeded to tell me he can put whatever he wants on that list to make it cost the quoted amount, and I would never know any better. This was one of his first responses and gave me the impression he was trying to overcharge.

When we discussed the quote, he verbally stated that was removing the cabinets, removing and installing the entire kitchen ceiling, and removing the lights and if I wanted to replace them with something better I could at that time. I brought this up, but he said thats not what the quote states. Thats when I brought up that the quote states 60/man hour, and not a min of 8hrs per day.

Insurance quoted this entire job, with room manipulation labor, replacing entire kitchen ceiling joint to joint, retexturing the entire ceiling, etc at $3700, I received 2500 from insurance after deductibles and depreciation.

This job was also supposed to be completed while I was away on vacation, so I would not have been home to know any better about the work that was actually completed. After what was said about the itemized list and such, I feel that he was trying to take advantage of the situation.

[JP10]

Eh. I think you were in the wrong - he was under his original quoted price. He needs to make money too as a business. I quote dozens of jobs per month. If I had a customer in my shop micromanaging the hours associated with the job I would never do work with them again. Completely different scenario but that is just my 2 cents from a business perspective.

[Maynard]

So he quoted you an estimate of $4350 and you were good with that; then he ended up charging you only $4150, but you want to pay him $3000 and call that fair (actually fair-plus-$500)? And it is a neighborhood friend? Unless I'm missing something, I tend to think you're in the wrong on this one; If I were you I'd expect to have to pay everything in full up front going forward, if the contractors in your area share info about this like they do around here.

[///d]

I should add a few things.

When I asked for an itemized cost list, he asked if I was sure and proceeded to tell me he can put whatever he wants on that list to make it cost the quoted amount, and I would never know any better. This was one of his first responses and gave me the impression he was trying to overcharge.

When we discussed the quote, he verbally stated that was removing the cabinets, removing and installing the entire kitchen ceiling, and removing the lights and if I wanted to replace them with something better I could at that time. I brought this up, but he said thats not what the quote states. Thats when I brought up that the quote states 60/man hour, and not a min of 8hrs per day.

Insurance quoted this entire job, with room manipulation labor, replacing entire kitchen ceiling joint to joint, retexturing the entire ceiling, etc at $3700, I received 2500 from insurance after deductibles and depreciation.

This job was also supposed to be completed while I was away on vacation, so I would not have been home to know any better about the work that was actually completed. After what was said about the itemized list and such, I feel that he was trying to take advantage of the situation.

[e90335e36m3]

I think you're in the right. A business should be complete and transparent in the way that it quotes, not make it incumbent on the customer to know what the industry standard quoting practices are. The way you're describing it, they quoted actual costs (material + labor) and actual costs are actual costs, not actual costs + minimum daily labor fees and so forth. The $4350 estimate gives you a rough ballpark of the scope of the job and where you should expect to end up.

[freakystyly]

How much are you estimating for the cost of materials? I'd say 95% of it went into labor if that makes you feel any better.

[Watching The World Burn]

He opened himself up when he quoted labour per hour. I never do that. I quote the job, finish the job, and bill what I quoted, whether it took me more or less time than I thought.

If I am going over due to an unanticipated issue, then I talk to them and tell them why there needs to be a surcharge.

But really, you agreed to the total, he just should have left the hourly rate out of it. I doubt he'll work for you again, because this will leave a bad taste in his mouth.

[///d]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

How much are you estimating for the cost of materials? I'd say 90% of it went into labor if that makes you feel any better.

I can say this much, I know he gets materials from Menards.

Right now our Menards is:

1/2 lite drywall - $8/4x8 sheet
Roll R30 insulation - $25
Estimating a gal of white paint - $50
Poly - Entire roll for ~$25 depending on mil and brand


He says they put a couple pieces of 2x4 in there, likely just one board was needed with the small size of the areas patched. I personally did not see any, but I may have missed it.

I know there was rollers, brushes, trays, etc for paint, but everything minus the rollers and removable trays was used. Drop cloths were all used.

Demo consisted of a couple trashcans full of material that they tossed in the back of their truck. I've brought loads of demo to the dump, it's $10/load.

He claimed over $200 just in paint and paint materials. I get it, there will be some mark-up, but that still leaves $400 for everything else.

He also stated he does not charge for delivery or fuel, but he can if he needs to justify the quote cost. So again, I don't feel like this is an honest quote.

[///d]

Originally Posted by Watching The World Burn

He opened himself up when he quoted labour per hour. I never do that. I quote the job, finish the job, and bill what I quoted, whether it took me more or less time than I thought.

If I am going over due to an unanticipated issue, then I talk to them and tell them why there needs to be a surcharge.

But really, you agreed to the total, he just should have left the hourly rate out of it. I doubt he'll work for you again, because this will leave a bad taste in his mouth.

I thought the quote was high and asked him from the start, and he even verbally stated it was probably quite a bit higher than what it will end up being. I'm no contractor, but I could understand this job costing 4-4500 WITH the drywall included. A day of patching, 2 days drywall, and a day of painting, which is essentially exactly what happened, would put this whole thing around that 4-4.5 mark.

[Alfisti]

Honestly mate this is chicken feed, not worth the grief.

[antgenn]

I have 2 different types of quotes in my line of work: Project and T&M.
Project is a fixed price agreed on by both parties that cannot go lower. Price can go up only if the customer changes the scope that requires additional work. It's usually done by Change Order and billed accordingly. My projects run from $$K to $$$K.
T&M quote is usually made Not to Exceed a certain value. It is based on estimated time and materials and billed based on actuals. So it can go lower (or higher if NTE clause is not used). We disclose our labor rates which are different for travel, OT, weekend, weekend OT, and also skill level we apply to the job. And we will charge minimum 8 hours per day regardless actual, but it is also disclosed before the job starts. My T&M range is from $4k (one day-one person) to $50K.

One of the problem I see in OP is poorly defined scope for kitchen where repair area was not determined at all. And, by providing per hour rates, contractor opened a can of worms and mixed those two types of projects.

[shimmy23]

is this a fixed price or time and material (not to exceed) contract?

[TheWatchGuy]

Approx cost:
Kitchen -$3000
Bathroom: $1350
Labor charges $60.00/man hour plus materials
Drywall cost approx $1200 tp be paid to XXX Drywall.

I dont get why he gave you the per hour rate unless the Kitchen and Bath prices were his lump sum costs and labor was to be charged separate.

If that $4350 was the total cost including labor, then you owe him $4350. If labor was to be extra, then you owe him the 4350 + the labor ($1230 20.5 man hours)

If it was supposed to be a T&M contract not to exceed those amounts, then sure youre not on the hook for the full 4350, but I dont see that listed anywhere.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by ///d

I should add a few things.

When I asked for an itemized cost list, he asked if I was sure and proceeded to tell me he can put whatever he wants on that list to make it cost the quoted amount, and I would never know any better. This was one of his first responses and gave me the impression he was trying to overcharge.

When we discussed the quote, he verbally stated that was removing the cabinets, removing and installing the entire kitchen ceiling, and removing the lights and if I wanted to replace them with something better I could at that time. I brought this up, but he said thats not what the quote states. Thats when I brought up that the quote states 60/man hour, and not a min of 8hrs per day.

Insurance quoted this entire job, with room manipulation labor, replacing entire kitchen ceiling joint to joint, retexturing the entire ceiling, etc at $3700, I received 2500 from insurance after deductibles and depreciation.

This job was also supposed to be completed while I was away on vacation, so I would not have been home to know any better about the work that was actually completed. After what was said about the itemized list and such, I feel that he was trying to take advantage of the situation.

insurance always quote low fwiw. i wouldnt use that to base your decision to stiff the guy. If you had gone with an actual contractor, you would have been over that quote as well and would be fighting with your insurance to cover the extra.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Honestly mate this is chicken feed, not worth the grief.

No kidding. OP is down to estimating the costs of paint rollers and a 2x4.

My man, you just arent cut out for having other people work on your shit for you. I get it. I'm that way too. It's why I do everything myself. You're driving yourself crazy trying to make the math add up. At the end of the day the dude came in below his estimate and if you are happy with the work just let the rest go. 3 professional dudes coming in for 4 hours got more done in those 4 hours than you could have gotten done yourself in 2 weeks. So be happy you barely had to lift a finger. Write the check and tell the GF the owes you a steak and a BJ for causing you all this headache.

[///d]

Originally Posted by antgenn

And we will charge minimum 8 hours per day regardless actual, but it is also disclosed before the job starts.

With those 8hr/day minimum rates, do you plan your schedule to make the most out of the day to not unnecessarily add extra days? I'm not saying he intentionally planned to show up at noon and put 4 hrs in the first day so he could show up at noon the next day and put 1.5 hrs in to finish that piece and charge me for 2 days instead of one, but it feels like thats the case. I see no reason they couldn't have cut and hung the sheetrock that first day, but thats just how I see it from my point of view.

My suspicion (cant confirm, not going to ask him) is they work multiple jobs each day, which would mean they charge the other jobs 8hr/day as well and double dip their labor between multiple jobs.

[///d]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

No kidding. OP is down to estimating the costs of paint rollers and a 2x4.

My man, you just arent cut out for having other people work on your shit for you. I get it. I'm that way too. It's why I do everything myself. You're driving yourself crazy trying to make the math add up. At the end of the day the dude came in below his estimate and if you are happy with the work just let the rest go. 3 professional dudes coming in for 4 hours got more done in those 4 hours than you could have gotten done yourself in 2 weeks. So be happy you barely had to lift a finger. Write the check and tell the GF the owes you a steak and a BJ for causing you all this headache.

I wasnt breaking the cost down that far, he did, I just added it to this post. It wasnt until he told me he can add whatever he wants to the itemized list to come up with whatever cost he wants that I dug my heels in and started to fight. That comment raised flags that he may not be being honest.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by ///d

I wasnt breaking the cost down that far, he did, I just added it to this post. It wasnt until he told me he can add whatever he wants to the itemized list to come up with whatever cost he wants that I dug my heels in and started to fight. That comment raised flags that he may not be being honest.

I think you're jumping to the conclusion that he's dishonest. he has massive unknowns going into the job. Is there damage up in there that he cant see? Is there screwball framing that he's not going to discover till its too late? he did his best to estimate what he was getting into and came damn close.

it's also clear he's got other jobs and this job of yours was a little "filler" job. So he's gotta coordinate 3 laborers plus the drywall guy over the course of 5 days and he STILL came un under his bid. Oh, and BTW, it sounds like he got started straight away on your job. Do you know how lucky you are to have found a contractor that's not booked 3 months out, that's willing to do small jobs? Holy cow man. My neighbor sat with a tarp on his roof for 3 months begging contractors to come patch the hole. He still cant find a drywall guy to fix up the water damage to his kid's bedroom.

So you got 2 rooms fixed, got fast service, and 5 partial days worth of work for $4k. You got a sweet deal. Truly. Those 3 laborers, the drywall guy, and your contractor friend all gotta eat and feed their kids off that $4k.

[2000cs]

You’ve got the opportunity to learn several lessons, which will be worth whatever you end up paying for this job.
A few that occur to me are:
Try to do simple jobs yourself.
Let your insurance company pick the contractor and deal with them on the cost, you don’t sign off until the quality is to your expectation.
Get more specific estimates, with binding terms where needed very explicitly stated (e.g., minimum hours per day).
Perhaps take this contractor off your list, which will likely be mutual.

I have a learning situation going on now. A/C went out, tech came out and did 2 minutes worth of nothing but it fired up. Told me to call back if it failed again, which it did within a day. Same tech came out, diagnosed a failed component, confirmed with his shop that it was under warranty and ordered it. I have now paid for two visits. I checked the part online, it is about $175 at Amazon. Part came in, same tech came out and put it in, third labor charge. A week goes by and the shop calls to tell me the warranty claim was denied and they would be billing me for the part - about $175. I told them that the warranty was confirmed before the part was ordered, they held firm. So I told them I will not replace my 2 units with the same brand (Trane) since they won’t honor the warranty they had previously confirmed. I could have bought this part and put it in myself easily, once I had their diagnosis. And my total cost would have been much less. So I learned several things about them and me.

[RickFLM4]

I always get estimates in writing (not text) and talk to the person providing it to make sure it is crystal clear to both of us. The estimate he gave you sounds like it was $60/hr. with an estimated total cost of $4,350 + an additional $1,200 for the drywall guy. To me that would include all their time, including going to get materials, so there’s no way to really track it to the minute. If he came in under what he said, and insurance was paying most of it, I would have just paid it or at a minimum paid him the $850 when he offered to settle on that.

But… what difference does it make now? It’s done. Either he was trying to charge you more than he should or he wasn’t and therefore won’t want to deal with you again after he offered to take a haircut and the dispute ended up being over $350.

[Joe T]

Originally Posted by ///d

I've talked to a few friends and co-workers, and they agree with my thoughts on this, but figured I get some more opinions......

you and your friends are wrong.

and you don't fight with friends about money. You pay him what you agreed, and the difference is what you paid to learn a lesson about your friend

Don't use him again...

[wrickem]

It reads like he gave you a fair price on a decent sized job, you agreed with it and he came in within that price when done. It's not up to you to figure out his costs and man-hours after it's done, you'd already agreed to the quote beforehand. If you're going to nickel and dime a tradesman after the job is done you probably need to learn to do all that work yourself the next time.