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      07-28-2020, 11:13 AM   #1
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Taycan needs a better battery

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      07-28-2020, 11:25 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
Taycan needs a better battery
Why? The range is equal to Model S in highway (which is only that matters in real life) and enough in the city. In city no one drives hundreds of miles.

Also Model S and Taycan are so different in tire etc. department that Taycan could probably outrun in range Model S if that would be to goal, which is not.
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      07-28-2020, 11:40 AM   #3
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Why? The range is equal to Model S in highway (which is only that matters in real life) and enough in the city. In city no one drives hundreds of miles.

Also Model S and Taycan are so different in tire etc. department that Taycan could probably outrun in range Model S if that would be to goal, which is not.
It has roughly a 200 mile battery
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      07-28-2020, 09:35 PM   #4
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I test drove the Taycan and came back not as impressed as I thought I would be.

Good handling, but numb steering and brakes, very noticeable heft, and a lack of engagement due to no transmission really let it down, and the synthetic noise which I thought would be cool was more annoying and didn't match throttle input.

The interior is only okay with materials, there are some obvious hard plastics, and space is tight despite being mid-sized (a model 3 is larger inside and for cargo), and the tech is clumsy at best. My biggest issue is price, I drove a $160k car and didn't feel satisfied, my sales advisor even said "this one is lightly optioned." There is no way in hell I'd spend $160k on a Porsche that doesn't have an engine at the back or middle, 911, 718, and even used GT3/4's can be had at this price point, or even better, a Model 3 AND a 718 GTS 4.0/Used GT4, that way you can have your cake and eat it too, a great electric daily and fun weekend sports car.
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      07-29-2020, 03:30 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by jstein55 View Post
I test drove the Taycan and came back not as impressed as I thought I would be.

Good handling, but numb steering and brakes, very noticeable heft, and a lack of engagement due to no transmission really let it down, and the synthetic noise which I thought would be cool was more annoying and didn't match throttle input.

The interior is only okay with materials, there are some obvious hard plastics, and space is tight despite being mid-sized (a model 3 is larger inside and for cargo), and the tech is clumsy at best. My biggest issue is price, I drove a $160k car and didn't feel satisfied, my sales advisor even said "this one is lightly optioned." There is no way in hell I'd spend $160k on a Porsche that doesn't have an engine at the back or middle, 911, 718, and even used GT3/4's can be had at this price point, or even better, a Model 3 AND a 718 GTS 4.0/Used GT4, that way you can have your cake and eat it too, a great electric daily and fun weekend sports car.
Interesting

I am driving one soon I will let you know what I think
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      07-31-2020, 07:30 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post
It has roughly a 200 mile battery
Epa rating is not real world rating. Peeps are getting up to 300 miles of range.
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      07-31-2020, 11:26 AM   #7
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Epa rating is not real world rating. Peeps are getting up to 300 miles of range.


If you say so bro
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      08-03-2020, 10:05 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ///M TOWN View Post


If you say so bro
Range is a function, in part, of driving style. Most Porsche drivers will drive enthusiastically and that will drain a battery. If someone is getting 300 miles on a Taycan they are driving it like a Prius. Why in the world one would buy a Porsche and drive it like a Prius blows my mind.
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      08-03-2020, 10:17 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
Range is a function, in part, of driving style. Most Porsche drivers will drive enthusiastically and that will drain a battery. If someone is getting 300 miles on a Taycan they are driving it like a Prius. Why in the world one would buy a Porsche and drive it like a Prius blows my mind.
During my "spirited" test drive, in 15 miles the range dropped by about 33 miles, I have a fun route that is about 80 miles, I would be very interested to see how bad the range would be there when pushing the car. Most of these "tests" in which people are getting close to 300 miles (haven't seen one cross that yet, best I've seen is a 4S get ~270-280) they are driving in range mode, which turns your Porsche into a FWD eco-machine (literally as it decouples the rear). Curious to see what day to day milage with a mix of highway, city, suburbs and some fun would get.
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      08-03-2020, 04:17 PM   #10
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22 Sept is the proposed date for Tesla's battery day.

FWIW, Search 3600 mile Tesla battery. Interesting possibilities if that kind of range can be achieved from one charge.

Read that re-cycle charges are limited to 75, but do the math. For many drivers 3-4 charges per year is all that would be need (in my case one or two). Cross country trips would be doable on one charge. Long lines at recharging station would not be the case. Schedule a recharge appointment at a dealership or vendor and be good for another 3600 miles.

Interesting possibilities..................................... .

Last edited by USA-RET; 08-04-2020 at 11:37 AM..
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      08-04-2020, 11:33 PM   #11
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Obviosly 300 miles of range will be achieved when cruising in highway type scenario. That it also the only time u need long range as nobody is driving 200-300 miles in city per day.

I dont drive crazy in highways, do you guys?

Also porsche has wide tires etc. which are not suited for max range. If you wish to have more range you can change things (and ruin the car).
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      08-05-2020, 04:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uuni View Post
Obviosly 300 miles of range will be achieved when cruising in highway type scenario. That it also the only time u need long range as nobody is driving 200-300 miles in city per day.

I dont drive crazy in highways, do you guys?

Also porsche has wide tires etc. which are not suited for max range. If you wish to have more range you can change things (and ruin the car).
I think highway driving actually kills the range more than easy city/countryroad driving.
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      08-05-2020, 08:17 AM   #13
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I think highway driving actually kills the range more than easy city/countryroad driving.
That is true. One reason for the variance in EPA vs. WLPT mileage rating.
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      09-04-2020, 10:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uuni View Post
Epa rating is not real world rating. Peeps are getting up to 300 miles of range.
You are 100% correct. The EPA uses a Dyno to test range in very controlled environments at unrealistic speeds(It's a game of averages). They have admitted that it is highly unlikely that the vehicles will reach these results in the real world and allow for a ~30% buffer - really odd, right?

https://greentransportation.info/ev-...%20dynamometer.

The Taycan actually does perform better in the real-world as it's not trying to attract people who are solely interested in range. Search for your selves. Matt Farah drove from LA to Palm Springs on one charge and he is not the only one. This is a distance of 212 miles on a vehicle that is certified for 200 miles. Also keep in mind that these guy's did not hyper mile the cars.

The biggest difference between tech companies and OEM manufacturers is when it comes to range claims. OEMs have a better understand of automotive customers as they have decades of experience. They rather underestimate and over-deliver. In many cases, traditional OEM's do better in real-world testing vs EPA claims compared to Tesla.

With that said. With what I've seen from BMW over the last few EV models, I feel that they will be able to compete with Tesla from a range standpoint. They may not claim a higher range, but it certainly will be more consistent and have less battery capacity loss over time. In addition, the cars will be more refined.

In addition to the range, what is most important is that these cars look good. No one wants their car to look like an i3 or any of the i brand products. People want sleek and sexy designs that stand out because of beauty, not weirdness. Regardless, BMW will do a good job as it knows the stakes. They cannot afford to screw up due to long product cycles.
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      09-05-2020, 11:31 AM   #15
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You are 100% correct. The EPA uses a Dyno to test range in very controlled environments at unrealistic speeds(It's a game of averages). They have admitted that it is highly unlikely that the vehicles will reach these results in the real world and allow for a ~30% buffer - really odd, right?
I read an article in Car and Driver (last issue as I recall) that discussed the EPA ratings and whether manufacturers are gaming the system to get higher numbers. In their test and review Tesla numbers were within a percentage point of the EPA rating when tested using real world roads (that closely matched surfaces mimicked by the EPA dyno) by C&D.

I too hope the i4 meets of exceeds expectations. Still not getting why BMW publishes its range @ 373 mile while the car mags expect it to come in at 270 miles (and yes I know about the two standards used to measure range). My point being that cars available now when tested using the two methods, their differences never amount to a 1/3 loss of range. If BMW range numbers are to be believed, EPA numbers should be between 320 and 330 miles for range
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      09-05-2020, 11:48 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
I read an article in Car and Driver (last issue as I recall) that discussed the EPA ratings and whether manufacturers are gaming the system to get higher numbers. In their test and review Tesla numbers were within a percentage point of the EPA rating when tested using real world roads (that closely matched surfaces mimicked by the EPA dyno) by C&D.

I too hope the i4 meets of exceeds expectations. Still not getting why BMW publishes its range @ 373 mile while the car mags expect it to come in at 270 miles (and yes I know about the two standards used to measure range). My point being that cars available now when tested using the two methods, their differences never amount to a 1/3 loss of range. If BMW range numbers are to be believed, EPA numbers should be between 320 and 330 miles for range
Hope so. I read the article as well. The most disappointing thing is that they are within a percentage of the advertised range. It should be the opposite, rate lower, get higher. Trust when I say no one will complain about getting more than the advertised range. 250miles of range is more than enough for 99% of people.

I think BMW knows this and will respond accordingly. Think about this, manufacturers are chasing an arbitrary number. What's more important is real-world utilization and consistency.
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      09-06-2020, 10:29 AM   #17
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Hope so. I read the article as well. The most disappointing thing is that they are within a percentage of the advertised range. It should be the opposite, rate lower, get higher. Trust when I say no one will complain about getting more than the advertised range. 250miles of range is more than enough for 99% of people.

I think BMW knows this and will respond accordingly. Think about this, manufacturers are chasing an arbitrary number. What's more important is real-world utilization and consistency.
Real world number are always better for sure. I'm not sure we will get those numbers accurately reflected with EV's now.

In my situation (living in Florida), when I get into my car and start it, two thing come on immediately, the AC and my music. Both of these will suck extra power from the batteries. Additionally, during the summer we get plenty of rain showers (usually one per afternoon). This will add wipers and headlights to the power drain.

I've come to rely on maximum range numbers as just that...max range w/o any accessories. The best I can do is SWAG what range losses I will incur if using an EV's accessories when driving.

I've watched a few videos of guys testing range on vehicle where temps have dropped and heat was needed and the car range was noticeably impacted. The more accessories used, the shorter the range. So, IMO any EV advertising a max range at the limit of ones actual needs probably won't meet those needs (if they use the EV as they use their ICE car).

I agree that for most people 250 miles (with normal accessories being used) would be acceptable. 300-320 (real world mileage w/ accessories) would be my sweet spot.

My situation requires a bit more range to satisfy any range anxiety. We have a weekend cabin approx 100 miles from our home. So that requires 200 miles there and back and another 75-100 for travel when we are there. My Mini and M240i can make the trip both ways with the running around in between and arrive back home with still some gasoline remaining.

To further muddy the situation, most all manufacturers agree that charging to 100% and discharging to less than 20% will shorten battery life. So are the published range numbers based on 100% to 0% or 85% to 20%?

Tesla's talk of a 400+ mile range battery could be about right for me when factoring in losses due to accessories, my cabin travel and max-min charging limits.

Still so many unknowns now. Certainly for urban travel or trips of 100 miles or less, most current EV's would be more than serviceable.
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      09-06-2020, 08:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
Real world number are always better for sure. I'm not sure we will get those numbers accurately reflected with EV's now.

In my situation (living in Florida), when I get into my car and start it, two thing come on immediately, the AC and my music. Both of these will suck extra power from the batteries. Additionally, during the summer we get plenty of rain showers (usually one per afternoon). This will add wipers and headlights to the power drain.

I've come to rely on maximum range numbers as just that...max range w/o any accessories. The best I can do is SWAG what range losses I will incur if using an EV's accessories when driving.

I've watched a few videos of guys testing range on vehicle where temps have dropped and heat was needed and the car range was noticeably impacted. The more accessories used, the shorter the range. So, IMO any EV advertising a max range at the limit of ones actual needs probably won't meet those needs (if they use the EV as they use their ICE car).

I agree that for most people 250 miles (with normal accessories being used) would be acceptable. 300-320 (real world mileage w/ accessories) would be my sweet spot.

My situation requires a bit more range to satisfy any range anxiety. We have a weekend cabin approx 100 miles from our home. So that requires 200 miles there and back and another 75-100 for travel when we are there. My Mini and M240i can make the trip both ways with the running around in between and arrive back home with still some gasoline remaining.

To further muddy the situation, most all manufacturers agree that charging to 100% and discharging to less than 20% will shorten battery life. So are the published range numbers based on 100% to 0% or 85% to 20%?

Tesla's talk of a 400+ mile range battery could be about right for me when factoring in losses due to accessories, my cabin travel and max-min charging limits.

Still so many unknowns now. Certainly for urban travel or trips of 100 miles or less, most current EV's would be more than serviceable.
All good points. Same feelings here regarding max range. Also, another thing to keep in mind is the slight parasitic loss of range overnight and weather.

My only concern with range increases is they directly correlate to weight. I can't wait for the day that they can improve the battery vs cram more in.
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      09-12-2020, 12:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TheDudeMan View Post
250miles of range is more than enough for 99% of people.
Not even close, there's entire service divisions / engineers / sales / advisors etc. that currently use company diesels (or frugal petrols) to travel up and down counties all day. They can't really stop for a 3 - 5 hour charge during.

I've done the odd 350 mile trip (one way) and I wouldn't even consider an EV unless it could do 400 miles mixed (IRL). Lucid's 571 mile range even if optimistic would fit the picture but I seriously doubt any company would settle for a $139K price tag seen as most of their fleet or car allowances equate to $40K (or less) BMW's (mainly)..

Then again we don't really need 800HP to travel at 70MPH for five hours either..
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      09-12-2020, 01:34 PM   #20
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Not even close, there's entire service divisions / engineers / sales / advisors etc. that currently use company diesels (or frugal petrols) to travel up and down counties all day. They can't really stop for a 3 - 5 hour charge during.

I've done the odd 350 mile trip (one way) and I wouldn't even consider an EV unless it could do 400 miles mixed (IRL). Lucid's 571 mile range even if optimistic would fit the picture but I seriously doubt any company would settle for a $139K price tag seen as most of their fleet or car allowances equate to $40K (or less) BMW's (mainly)..

Then again we don't really need 800HP to travel at 70MPH for five hours either..
Ok, maybe not in your situation. But for most of your countrymen, it is, especially when it's a guaranteed 250. Were talking about avg. people with short to medium needs, not the transportation industry or traveling businessman. Even at that rate, no one would buy a Lucid or Mode S long range to rack up 350miles a day on business trip, let alone a MBZ S class.
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      09-13-2020, 09:57 AM   #21
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Ok, maybe not in your situation. But for most of your countrymen, it is, especially when it's a guaranteed 250. Were talking about avg. people with short to medium needs, not the transportation industry or traveling businessman. Even at that rate, no one would buy a Lucid or Mode S long range to rack up 350miles a day on business trip, let alone a MBZ S class.
I like to see development proceed on the 3650 mile battery (even with it's limited amount of recharges @75 ), it could meet everyone's needs.
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      09-13-2020, 03:56 PM   #22
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I like to see development proceed on the 3650 mile battery (even with it's limited amount of recharges @75 ), it could meet everyone's needs.
lol.

You can achieve that now, just haul a small generator that can maintain the charge and you'll never stop more than a few min.
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