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      04-06-2020, 10:46 PM   #1
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M2 CS tune?

So with the new CS on the horizon, and the fact that its nothing more than the same car just with loads more CF and a more aggressive tune...Is being ableto tune your M2 C with the CS tune something that can be done...and if the BMW dealership were to see the tune...could they deny warranty?

This is more out of curiosity than an actual plan for myself. However since AFAIK everything in the CS (engine wise) is the exact same as the M2C, having the CS tune shouldnt affect warranty...or am i wrong?
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      04-07-2020, 01:17 AM   #2
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Yes, you can flash the car with a CS tune

But if not mistaken the M2 CS uses the same HP as the M3/M4 ZCP and then you have the M3/M4 CS at 460.

I flashed to the CS tune that's based on the M3/M4 and it took it to another level.

Warranty wise, BMW can deny if they see that you have tempered with the car. Don't think it matters if you use CS/GTS or stage 2 map on your engine. It's not what they intended for the M2 comp
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      04-07-2020, 01:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRosth View Post
Yes, you can flash the car with a CS tune

But if not mistaken the M2 CS uses the same HP as the M3/M4 ZCP and then you have the M3/M4 CS at 460.

I flashed to the CS tune that's based on the M3/M4 and it took it to another level.

Warranty wise, BMW can deny if they see that you have tempered with the car. Don't think it matters if you use CS/GTS or stage 2 map on your engine. It's not what they intended for the M2 comp
I understand its not whats intended and i can understand them not granting warranty if they see an M4 CS tune on there. However if i'm not mistakin, the M2 CS has exactly the same parts under the hood. I dont think it gets a new cooler or anything like that. ALl they did was change the tune. The M4 CS is different because i believe it has a different intercooler. With that being the case...i just have no idea if it would make a difference. And its the first time i've really encountered this conundrum. I was big into the tuning scene with the 86, but when they did the refresh they used an aluminim manifold instead of the original plastic one. So if a dealer saw the aluminum manifold on an older car they could deny warranty even if it was the same engine. But thats a physical change...i guess i could ask them, but part of me thinks they will say no just to stay on the safe side.
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      04-07-2020, 04:11 AM   #4
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The Bosch MEVD17.2.G ECU used in the M2 is pretty sophisticated and when flashed with another program, even if it's done by a dealer for standard repairs, there is incremental number that increases and is saved, within the computers reserved EEPROM, i.e. permanent memory. Tuners refer to this as a "flash counter."

All a BMW claims rep has to do is refer to that number and extrapolate, as confirmation that the vehicle's software was rewritten, then they'll refer to the boost logs, timing, AFR and measure them against the set stock variances, as conformation of their suspicion.

They will allow for some fluctuations in the readings but if they see a major spiked in variations, it will be noted and possibly be use as evidence of tampering, thus, denying any hypothetical warranty claim.

Also, the ECU itself, if it's set programming determines something is out of bounds, for a reasonable period of time, like let's say the boost pressure and AFR abnormally spikes, from the stock parameters, it will assume the original programing was changed and record a tamped code 201101 DME: Protection against tampering: Program or data manipulation detected.

The fact is, the CS tune is mild and probably is safe but you have to circumvent the vehicle's software firewall to install it, which will leave breadcrumbs, making you vulnerable to warranty claim denial. It's kind of a quagmire but it's the risk you take for more power.

Now, if you don't care about the warranty coverage and just want to a tune; it's your car, you can do whatever you want to it but that also means you disclaim BMW from a potential warranty issue.


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      04-07-2020, 08:43 AM   #5
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I get what the OP is saying, but it will obviously void the warranty.
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      04-07-2020, 10:24 AM   #6
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I just don't see the trade off. To lose the warranty on a new $60K+ car for a few HP? I mean, if let's say you blow your motor, somehow, someway, that's $25K+ repair job. Even if you don't blow the motor but screw something up, you're now making payments (i'm assuming here, so really maybe not), on top of repair bills, on your brand new car.
If you're going to go balls out, then get mod it up crazy with big power and enjoy your beast not caring if it blows or not.
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      04-07-2020, 12:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
I just don't see the trade off. To lose the warranty on a new $60K+ car for a few HP? I mean, if let's say you blow your motor, somehow, someway, that's $25K+ repair job. Even if you don't blow the motor but screw something up, you're now making payments (i'm assuming here, so really maybe not), on top of repair bills, on your brand new car.
If you're going to go balls out, then get mod it up crazy with big power and enjoy your beast not caring if it blows or not.
Thats kind of the point of my question. Because the cars are basically identical minor cosmetic reasons, the only thing different is the tune. Since its a BMW tune and not someone i went to and put my car on the dyno and then got it tuned, would BMW see it as a violation of the warranty?

It sounds like they would regardless if the tune itself was just a stock tune from a car with identical hardware. Its a little disappointing, as i feel like BMW should allow people to flash the CS tune into a Competition model, however they probably want to maintain the CS' exclusivity.

Again, tough question since this doesnt really happen with other car manufactures. The only other car i can think of this being a question is the Veloster N. There are actually 2 versions of the Veloster N. Theres the one we see everyone talk about online, and rated at like 275ish HP. But then theres the exact same car(also called the N) with 250ish HP. Exact same engine, exact same configuration, all it is, is just a difference in the tune. I'm curious if other Veloster N owners are asking the same question.
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      04-07-2020, 12:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
I just don't see the trade off. To lose the warranty on a new $60K+ car for a few HP? I mean, if let's say you blow your motor, somehow, someway, that's $25K+ repair job. Even if you don't blow the motor but screw something up, you're now making payments (i'm assuming here, so really maybe not), on top of repair bills, on your brand new car.
If you're going to go balls out, then get mod it up crazy with big power and enjoy your beast not caring if it blows or not.
Not sure we need all or nothing approach. The m2 CS has the CS tune. These cars can handle more power, especially the M2C's which are factory detuned. To "lose" the warranty they will still need to prove that the new power was the cause.
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      04-07-2020, 12:02 PM   #9
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Again for clarity, i dont actually plan on tuning my car. 405hp honestly is more than enough for me. The fastest car i had up to this point was my Supercharged BRZ making 240hp to the wheels and i thought that thing was quick as hell. THis is just a whole different level of speed.

This was more an exercise in curiosity.
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      04-07-2020, 01:35 PM   #10
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I'd do it if it were my car, but that's because I am very comfortable with my dealership and have a good relationship with them. Also, they'd have to really prove you had a tune by showing multiple flashes. But, it's probably good insurance not to tune your car until it's been flashed for some other reason by the dealership, such as a recall or to fix an issue. This at least gives you plausible deniability. When they flash your car there are many dependencies that also need to be flashed. This is why sometimes it can take a few minutes while other times it can take several hours. Their systems don't always succeed and sometimes they have to start over, hence the count goes up. In the end it's up to you and your comfort level if you want to do it now or wait until the car is out of warranty.
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      04-07-2020, 01:40 PM   #11
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Yeah if i ever plan on tuning this car i might just talk to them about the possibility of a CS tune. I dont really see the need to be above 400 whp at the most with this car since i probably dont even really use even close to that on the road.
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      04-07-2020, 10:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxyion View Post
Yeah if i ever plan on tuning this car i might just talk to them about the possibility of a CS tune. I dont really see the need to be above 400 whp at the most with this car since i probably dont even really use even close to that on the road.
Don't waste your time. Corporate has final say on warranty decisions. They don't care if you literally just increased burble duration or if you're running a e85 kill tune. Tuning = easy reason for them to deny the warranty claim.
No one is going to read your ECU dump and say "wow, they were only running a CS tune. Normally we deny warranty on tuned cars but I'll allow this".
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      04-07-2020, 11:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdriggett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxyion View Post
Yeah if i ever plan on tuning this car i might just talk to them about the possibility of a CS tune. I dont really see the need to be above 400 whp at the most with this car since i probably dont even really use even close to that on the road.
Don't waste your time. Corporate has final say on warranty decisions. They don't care if you literally just increased burble duration or if you're running a e85 kill tune. Tuning = easy reason for them to deny the warranty claim.
No one is going to read your ECU dump and say "wow, they were only running a CS tune. Normally we deny warranty on tuned cars but I'll allow this".
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdriggett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxyion View Post
Yeah if i ever plan on tuning this car i might just talk to them about the possibility of a CS tune. I dont really see the need to be above 400 whp at the most with this car since i probably dont even really use even close to that on the road.
Don't waste your time. Corporate has final say on warranty decisions. They don't care if you literally just increased burble duration or if you're running a e85 kill tune. Tuning = easy reason for them to deny the warranty claim.
No one is going to read your ECU dump and say "wow, they were only running a CS tune. Normally we deny warranty on tuned cars but I'll allow this".

Exactly. They don't pull the car into the shop, hook up to it and it say M2CS tune" lol. You give a business a chance to save 20k+ they'll take that the majority of the time.
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      04-08-2020, 05:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRosth View Post
Yes, you can flash the car with a CS tune

But if not mistaken the M2 CS uses the same HP as the M3/M4 ZCP and then you have the M3/M4 CS at 460.

I flashed to the CS tune that's based on the M3/M4 and it took it to another level.

Warranty wise, BMW can deny if they see that you have tempered with the car. Don't think it matters if you use CS/GTS or stage 2 map on your engine. It's not what they intended for the M2 comp
BMW did extensive testing of the M2CS around a variety of circuits

I really doubt they're just going to copy and paste the M3/M4 ZCP parameters on the M2CS.

I'm waiting for an authentic M2CS software, there certainly will be differences
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      04-08-2020, 07:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRosth View Post
Yes, you can flash the car with a CS tune

But if not mistaken the M2 CS uses the same HP as the M3/M4 ZCP and then you have the M3/M4 CS at 460.

I flashed to the CS tune that's based on the M3/M4 and it took it to another level.

Warranty wise, BMW can deny if they see that you have tempered with the car. Don't think it matters if you use CS/GTS or stage 2 map on your engine. It's not what they intended for the M2 comp
BMW did extensive testing of the M2CS around a variety of circuits

I really doubt they're just going to copy and paste the M3/M4 ZCP parameters on the M2CS.

I'm waiting for an authentic M2CS software, there certainly will be differences
Just flash it with the CS tune that's online already. Nothing special with the tune that the M2cs have.

Same engine, same cooling etc etc.
choose if you want to go standard, cs, gts, stage 1 or stage 2.
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      04-08-2020, 06:16 PM   #16
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Carbahn has a tune with warranty that makes more power than the CS.
Still waiting to get some feedback on it.
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      04-08-2020, 08:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitekidM2C View Post
Not sure we need all or nothing approach. The m2 CS has the CS tune. These cars can handle more power, especially the M2C's which are factory detuned. To "lose" the warranty they will still need to prove that the new power was the cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
I'd do it if it were my car, but that's because I am very comfortable with my dealership and have a good relationship with them. Also, they'd have to really prove you had a tune by showing multiple flashes. But, it's probably good insurance not to tune your car until it's been flashed for some other reason by the dealership, such as a recall or to fix an issue. This at least gives you plausible deniability. When they flash your car there are many dependencies that also need to be flashed. This is why sometimes it can take a few minutes while other times it can take several hours. Their systems don't always succeed and sometimes they have to start over, hence the count goes up. In the end it's up to you and your comfort level if you want to do it now or wait until the car is out of warranty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdriggett View Post
Don't waste your time. Corporate has final say on warranty decisions. They don't care if you literally just increased burble duration or if you're running a e85 kill tune. Tuning = easy reason for them to deny the warranty claim.
No one is going to read your ECU dump and say "wow, they were only running a CS tune. Normally we deny warranty on tuned cars but I'll allow this".
The burden of proof concerning aftermarket parts affecting warranties falls on the owner to prove. A single customer has a long uphill battle to get a corporate entity to honor a warranty that appears to comply with on all levels with the The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
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      04-08-2020, 08:30 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brandt51 View Post
The burden of proof concerning aftermarket parts affecting warranties falls on the owner to prove. A single customer has a long uphill battle to get a corporate entity to honor a warranty that appears to comply with on all levels with the The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
I'm not sure i understand what you are saying, but the burden of proof is unquestionably on the company/dealership since they are attempting to defend their failure to comply with the promise (warranty) that they will fix the car if something bad happens. Still, if they do decline to repair the car, you're likely going to have to sue which is a battle.
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      04-08-2020, 08:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitekidM2C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandt51 View Post
The burden of proof concerning aftermarket parts affecting warranties falls on the owner to prove. A single customer has a long uphill battle to get a corporate entity to honor a warranty that appears to comply with on all levels with the The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
I'm not sure i understand what you are saying, but the burden of proof is unquestionably on the company/dealership since they are attempting to defend their failure to comply with the promise (warranty) that they will fix the car if something bad happens. Still, if they do decline to repair the car, you're likely going to have to sue which is a battle.
A study on voir dire (jury selection), shows that jurors just love CSI-style evidence, more than logical reasoning and likely will sway in that direction.

So all a BMW expert has to do is testified that their was an electronic trail of the vehicle's software being tampered with, add some meaningless but colorful diagrams and its case closed.

You're dead in the water if you believe you'll win a case against a conglomerate, unless you have some irrefutable evidence of a tort against you.
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      04-08-2020, 08:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
A study on Voir Dire (jury selection), shows that jurors just love CSI-style evidence, more than logical reasoning and more than likely will sway in the direction.

So all a BMW expert has to do is testified that their was an electronic trails of the vehicle's software being tampered with and its case closed.

You're dead in the water if you believe you'll win a case against a conglomerate, unless you have some irrefutable evidence of some sort of tort against you.
Shit, hiring an expert will likely cost more than the repair lmao. I think you will have a tough time winning but you don't need irrefutable evidence of any "tort". To win this battle BMW will need to prove to the trier of fact, that it was more than likely the part that helped cause the failure. So not exactly an impossible task, but let's get the burden of production and burden of persuasion correct at least.
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      04-08-2020, 08:49 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dav3 View Post
BMW did extensive testing of the M2CS around a variety of circuits

I really doubt they're just going to copy and paste the M3/M4 ZCP parameters on the M2CS.

I'm waiting for an authentic M2CS software, there certainly will be differences
Where will you get this "authentic" M2CS software? I'm under the impression the best you can do is choose a "CS" labeled tune from a 3rd party (BM3, BPM, take your pick). That's not necessarily authentic. For all we know, they just make a map that has comparable output as the CS, or it is their approximation of BMW's CS map. At that point, it really doesn't matter if you wait for some new map to come out, or if you just take one of the choices available today. Let's not confuse a 3rd party "CS" map with authentic BMW software.
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      04-08-2020, 08:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitekidM2C View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie View Post
A study on Voir Dire (jury selection), shows that jurors just love CSI-style evidence, more than logical reasoning and more than likely will sway in the direction.

So all a BMW expert has to do is testified that their was an electronic trails of the vehicle's software being tampered with and its case closed.

You're dead in the water if you believe you'll win a case against a conglomerate, unless you have some irrefutable evidence of some sort of tort against you.
Shit, hiring an expert will likely cost more than the repair lmao. I think you will have a tough time winning but you don't need irrefutable evidence of any "tort". To win this battle BMW will need to prove to the trier of fact, that it was more than likely the part that helped cause the failure. So not exactly an impossible task, but let's get the burden of proof and burden of persuasion correct at least.
I have never heard of any private individual wining a warranty claim civil lawsuit against an auto manufacture, so if you can pull off that miracle, then more power to you.

Better people have tired to prove an auto manufacture wrong and have failed (see below) but if you can cite some evidence of anyone succeeding, please enlighten me.


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