[zofinger]

Can anyone help me understand why, when exiting the EU, the UK doesn’t say “well we aren’t putting in any border checks. If you want to (Ireland) then that’s your prerogative.”

I get the UK has shared responsibility to find a solution and I hope there is one encompassing a broader deal. But if the EU won’t accept it well I guess there is no deal and no £40bn settlement. Why would the UK care. It’s not like the EU could sue the country as it won’t be subject to European courts of Justice and it would be for the Rep. of Ireland to choose does it want frictionless trade with the UK or put up a hard border.

Is it ‘simply’ the uk needs to find a solution otherwise there can’t be a broader deal which the UK so badly wants?

Discuss.

Thanks for your help.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Is it Ireland's decision to make, or do the EU control border policy for member states?

[sahajesh]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

Is it Ireland's decision to make, or do the EU control border policy for member states?

Now that's the question

[Jimbob335DX]

Does every Eu country that borders a non Eu country have a hard border?

[Watsey]

I've been thinking about thins as well as am increasingly swinging towards an outcome that does require a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Of course that's easy for me to say - I don't live in N/Ireland.

How much UK trade flows across the border and onwards into the EU ? Genuine question - I have no factual understanding. Not Irish exports; English/Welsh/Scottish/N.Irish goods and services transiting through Ireland as an export route to the EU.

The EU continues to try to drive a wedge into UK sovereignty whilst making no apparent suggestions or compromises. With the DUP and a Cabinet revolt both in the wings, and annexing Northern Ireland from the UK being completely unacceptable, perhaps No Deal is the way to go.

[NISFAN]

You can see the EU's concerns. Without a hard border / border controls, the UK is potentially free to set up tariff free trade with any country in the world and become a back door supplier into Europe via Ireland.

Time to buy shares in Trotters international traders?

[Wills2]

An Irish politician (northern IIRC) put it well when he said barb wire, watch towers and British army couldn't create a hard border so what chance do the EU have?

Pointless trying to have one, you can't cut NI off from the ROI and you can't cut NI off from the UK mainland.

[Herr Dreier]

It seems to me that if a deal can't be reached, we end up with a no-deal. This means a hard border in Ireland.

The EU is pushing hard for the "backstop" meaning some border down the Irish Sea. We've told them this is never going to happen.

The fact that they are pushing so hard, with the obvious (to us) outcome of a no-deal, tells me that they think we're going to back down, and we're going to give in to the backstop - which I hope we don't. From what I've read, our senior negotiator Ollie Robbins has actually been telling the EU that we will back down, which has given them "hope".

Given that continuing to attempt to prevent the hard border in Ireland is most likely to end up with a hard border in Ireland - why can't the negotiators start from the principle of "we're going to have a hard border", then do what we can to make the hard border as seamless as possible.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by Herr Dreier

It seems to me that if a deal can't be reached, we end up with a no-deal. This means a hard border in Ireland.

You find me a British PM or Irish Taoiseach that would sign off on that, neither would or could it'd be political suicide.

[225]

The other thing I don't understand is why would having a border automatically mean violence?

Not being of a religious persuasion I never do understand people kicking off over a religion but just seems daft to me if a border is created someone will then go and blow something up because if it.

I appreciate there is a lot more to the Irish past than I fully understand but to me, yes a border would be a pain in the balls but surely it could be implemented as softly as possible if the will was there?

[ossi1]

Originally Posted by Jimbob335DX

Does every Eu country that borders a non Eu country have a hard border?

I'm not sure they all have a hard border per se. The Swiss border for example is extremely porous. Often you might find some sort of check point type building that is often empty but no barriers , passport checks etc as a matter of routine.

The same with Norway and Sweden where there appears to be nothing of note on most of the major highways, just a sign.

I cant help but think that this is the EU being as obstructive as possible, although I do get the issues over custom controls etc I'm sure these aren't insurmountable.

[Jimbob335DX]

Originally Posted by ossi1

I'm not sure they all have a hard border per se. The Swiss border for example is extremely porous. Often you might find some sort of check point type building that is often empty but no barriers , passport checks etc as a matter of routine.

The same with Norway and Sweden where there appears to be nothing of note on most of the major highways, just a sign.

I cant help but think that this is the EU being as obstructive as possible, although I do get the issues over custom controls etc I'm sure these aren't insurmountable.

That was kinda my thinking, but after a long old google search, theres a policy that goes with border controls and building relationships with neighbour states.

I'm in line with your final point.

[Dyl]

Originally Posted by ossi1

The same with Norway and Sweden where there appears to be nothing of note on most of the major highways, just a sign..

Not quite true. A quarter of a million vehicle checks a year take place at the border. Smaller roads don't have checks but you can't really send trucks down them.

Originally Posted by ossi1

I'm not sure they all have a hard border per se. The Swiss border for example is extremely porous. Often you might find some sort of check point type building that is often empty but no barriers , passport checks etc as a matter of routine.

Are you sure, I've not crossed a land boarder into Switzerland for quite a few years but I don't believe that to be the case. I cross the Austrian/Germany frequently and despite them both being in the E.U. there are still occasional boarder checks there.

Sky news report about the Swiss boarder... https://news.sky.com/video/a-white-v...y-one-11494484 Hardly seems an unmanned barrier to me.

[mikeoz]

As we have said we won't build a hard border and the Irish have said they won't....who will built it if all fails?

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

1. The EU can't sue the UK once we leave. It's not a sovereign state.
2. The £39 billion is contingent on a deal. No deal, no money.

I can't see why the EU not being a sovereign state would impact their ability to sue the UK. Individuals and companies who are not sovereign states can (and frequently do) sue the UK.

I agree with the idea that without a deal we should do what we can to avoid paying, but it seems to be a matter debate as to whether we can get away with this. In a situation like that, it is likely in my view that the UK has some unavoidable liabilities, particularly if we are inevitably seeking an ongoing relationship with the EU.

[Jimbob335DX]

May today said

Quote "It was actually £39bn, said Mrs May, and this was a country "that honours it's legal obligations and we will do exactly that", before leaving herself a little wiggle room with her familiar mantra that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".

Source

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45887830

And I'm not implying this is a legal document, as I thought we owed nothing on the no deal scenario...

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

There is no legal basis for her statement. As I've said above, show me the legal document where is says we owe £39 billion and I'll bare my arse in Paddington station.

I won't find a legal document, but then I'm not an EU lawyer.

However, if you're going to bare you're arse anywhere then surely the Eurostar terminal at St Pancras is the place

[GBR1]

As said above somewhere, they can't come to a deal because they don't want a hard border, yet if they don't come to a deal they will get a hard border.

Madness the whole situation.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by GBR1

As said above somewhere, they can't come to a deal because they don't want a hard border, yet if they don't come to a deal they will get a hard border.

Madness the whole situation.

Who would have thought that leaving a political and economic union we have been wedded to for 4 decades could have been this complicated...

Oh yes, quite a few of us...

[Bibbles]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

I don't make the laws, just report them. The EU cannot sue once the UK leaves. The individual 27 regions of the EU could sue, but they'd never agree on it.

If you can show me a legal document that says we owe £39 billion to the EU, I'll bare my arse in Euston station.

You're probably right that they couldn't sue us. However they could refuse to trade in goods, services, security information, aviation and everything else which would scupper us entirely and we'd be signing a check for £39bn pretty sharpish.

[ADS-UK]

If UK leaves without a deal then we fall back onto WTO rules. A border is a requirement under WTO rules. So it's not Ireland's problem but ours. Seems like all the hard brexiteers conveniently leave this fact out.

All that the majority of the country cares is that we aren't worse off by whatever happens out of Brexit. Those who claim that we'll be ok in the long run aren't the poorer half of the country. They'll have enough reserves to survive any downturn. Build it and they'll come mentality.

[JD6]

Originally Posted by Herr August Schmidhuber

I see. So you reckon BMW, VAG and Daimler would let the EU destroy one of their largest export markets? The Spanish would allow the EU to fuck the 17 million Brits who visit them every year. Do you think French farmers would allow the EU to block one of their largest export markets. Most of the 27 have skin in the game. It's not just the UK that would hurt.
You'd find the French farmers would have the EU beaurocrats heads on spikes long before.

There will be pressure from all of them, but we sell 44% of our goods and services to the EU and they sell 8% of their goods and services to the UK. Who do you think will blink first?