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      04-18-2018, 02:15 PM   #1
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Video: Auto Express - M5 vs. E63 Track Test

New BMW M5 vs. Mercedes-AMG E 63 S - which is fastest on track?

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      04-18-2018, 03:47 PM   #2
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must be rigged. Its not the competition pack and not Michelins
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      04-18-2018, 07:33 PM   #3
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This one won't make first page for sure
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      04-19-2018, 08:48 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonba View Post
must be rigged. Its not the competition pack and not Michelins
Goonba - what do you drive? You are the one who spreads conspiracy theories. Factually - the majority of tests have the F90 M5 quicker and faster - in a straight line and definitely on a road course.

The magazines you say are a complete conspiracy and those that you say are not.

So - that is about it.

EDIT: Lol - and the F90 wasn't on the same Pilot 4S tires as the E63S - and lost by a tenth. You have no legs to stand on Goonba. What a joke.

Last edited by vtknight; 04-19-2018 at 08:55 AM..
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      04-19-2018, 09:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Goonba - what do you drive? You are the one who spreads conspiracy theories. Factually - the majority of tests have the F90 M5 quicker and faster - in a straight line and definitely on a road course.

The magazines you say are a complete conspiracy and those that you say are not.

So - that is about it.

EDIT: Lol - and the F90 wasn't on the same Pilot 4S tires as the E63S - and lost by a tenth. You have no legs to stand on Goonba. What a joke.
Truth be told, he drives his parents computer in the basement.
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      04-19-2018, 10:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Goonba - what do you drive? You are the one who spreads conspiracy theories. Factually - the majority of tests have the F90 M5 quicker and faster - in a straight line and definitely on a road course.

The magazines you say are a complete conspiracy and those that you say are not.

So - that is about it.

EDIT: Lol - and the F90 wasn't on the same Pilot 4S tires as the E63S - and lost by a tenth. You have no legs to stand on Goonba. What a joke.
Once again if you actually bothered to watch other Auto Express H2Hs you will have realised that 0.1s on that tiny track is a meaningful amount (the E63 beat the Pan Turbo by 0.3s which is significantly heavier and less power). All the H2Hs on that track are close. It may be that the E63s is better on smaller technical tracks, the M5 is better elsewhere. He also admits that in the E63 he had to short shift because the torque range is pretty immense, and that could be the difference between winning and losing on a tight, short track.

The M5 is on Pirelli PZ4s, which is the supplied tyre in the UK. The reason being is that in colder/slippery conditions (aka the UK) the tyre performs better (google some reviews). It has less road noise and leads to better fuel consumption (which in the UK is more important). They also come standard on the E63.
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      04-19-2018, 11:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonba View Post
Once again if you actually bothered to watch other Auto Express H2Hs you will have realised that 0.1s on that tiny track is a meaningful amount (the E63 beat the Pan Turbo by 0.3s which is significantly heavier and less power). All the H2Hs on that track are close. It may be that the E63s is better on smaller technical tracks, the M5 is better elsewhere. He also admits that in the E63 he had to short shift because the torque range is pretty immense, and that could be the difference between winning and losing on a tight, short track.

The M5 is on Pirelli PZ4s, which is the supplied tyre in the UK. The reason being is that in colder/slippery conditions (aka the UK) the tyre performs better (google some reviews). It has less road noise and leads to better fuel consumption (which in the UK is more important). They also come standard on the E63.
I did watch the video and one tenth is significant over a multiple lap race. I know this because I also know this because I race in real life and don't need an Autocar video to tell me that.

I do not discount that the M5 in Europe may use Pirelli tires - only that tires make a massive difference - and the PS4's are a huge advantage. In fact - to my knowledge - the ONLY time the M5 has ever lost in a comparison to the E63S is when it is on Pirelli tires and not the Michelins. Especially in road course comparisons - the F90 has literally walked the E63S from every review. That said - even with the disadvantage - the F90 was a tenth behind - which is easily down to the driver. It also depends on the type of track - small versus large. For example: The fact that this track was small - and therefore more turn/tire intensive - highlights the tire being that much more important versus a longer - less turn intensive course.

The Pirelli is a better all round wet/dry tire - maybe - but it certainly is NOT a better performance tire.

It's a simple matter of apples and oranges. Test with the same tires. Makes the results that much easier to compare.
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      04-19-2018, 12:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
I did watch the video and one tenth is significant over a multiple lap race. I know this because I also know this because I race in real life and don't need an Autocar video to tell me that.

I do not discount that the M5 in Europe may use Pirelli tires - only that tires make a massive difference - and the PS4's are a huge advantage. In fact - to my knowledge - the ONLY time the M5 has ever lost in a comparison to the E63S is when it is on Pirelli tires and not the Michelins. Especially in road course comparisons - the F90 has literally walked the E63S from every review. That said - even with the disadvantage - the F90 was a tenth behind - which is easily down to the driver. It also depends on the type of track - small versus large. For example: The fact that this track was small - and therefore more turn/tire intensive - highlights the tire being that much more important versus a longer - less turn intensive course.

The Pirelli is a better all round wet/dry tire - maybe - but it certainly is NOT a better performance tire.

It's a simple matter of apples and oranges. Test with the same tires. Makes the results that much easier to compare.
Never heard of anyone ever setting up a comparison test where the use of the same tires was any criteria.
Furthermore, manufacturers deliver cars with their equipment of choice and that is how they are rated. If they made a bad choice due to the car breaking down or otherwise performing poorly, it is on them.

I don't think this is a bad choice because it likely reflects the reality of what customers end up having in their garage.
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      04-19-2018, 01:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
Never heard of anyone ever setting up a comparison test where the use of the same tires was any criteria.
Furthermore, manufacturers deliver cars with their equipment of choice and that is how they are rated. If they made a bad choice due to the car breaking down or otherwise performing poorly, it is on them.

I don't think this is a bad choice because it likely reflects the reality of what customers end up having in their garage.
Yeah that's why I didn't want to get into the tire debate. One can always nitpick about something, there are no perfect tests, a win is a win.

It's not the end of the world if the M5 lost a track test, on Auto Zeitung it won by over 1 sec. And I expect the M5 will put up the best time on the ring.
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      04-19-2018, 02:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
Never heard of anyone ever setting up a comparison test where the use of the same tires was any criteria.
Furthermore, manufacturers deliver cars with their equipment of choice and that is how they are rated. If they made a bad choice due to the car breaking down or otherwise performing poorly, it is on them.

I don't think this is a bad choice because it likely reflects the reality of what customers end up having in their garage.
My response to that is simple: if I compare two cars and put slicks on one and not the other - you are okay with the outcome? I recognize that there isn't the same disparity between my example and the actual test - but the point is that tires do make a significant difference. The key here is that the same tires used in the winning comparisons and those worn by the E63S - the PS4's - are an available tire. So as a testing criteria - to eliminate that factor - it would have been helpful to have the same tires.

As stated - the M5 beat the E63S by one SECOND with the same tires being used by both - so I submit - it's a relevant advantage.
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      04-19-2018, 02:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatcat View Post
Yeah that's why I didn't want to get into the tire debate. One can always nitpick about something, there are no perfect tests, a win is a win.

It's not the end of the world if the M5 lost a track test, on Auto Zeitung it won by over 1 sec. And I expect the M5 will put up the best time on the ring.
Agreed - it just doesn't make the results equal to what they are intending to show: which car is quicker. There's an asterisk now.

I also agree from ALL of the tests and reviews out there that - especially on the road course - the F90 is superior to the E63S. It will have the quicker and faster times for most if not all tracks.

Last edited by vtknight; 04-19-2018 at 02:24 PM..
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      04-19-2018, 02:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
This is true - it just doesn't make the results equal to what they are intending to show: which car is quicker. There's an asterisk now.

I also agree from ALL of the tests and reviews out there that - especially on the road course - the F90 is superior to the E63S. It will have the quicker and faster times for most if not all tracks.
I am not insulting your or anyones ownership/worship of the M5.

I am just pointing out that BMW in the UK supplies these tyres, its their choice, they know far more than I do (but after looking what they are, I understand why they choose them for the UK and UK tracks). To my knowledge Mercedes-AMG UK and my personal car is also on the new Pirelli PZ4s. I have never heard of these tyres before, but i googled it today and it turns out they are not just "Pirelli PZs" and are not a bad choice for the climate we live in.

Regarding times, and all the stuff that makes this forum stimulating, I have stated show me video and proof and I will believe it (and take my hat off). Take the SA timed review, I have a Vbox and I have never had 3.5s to 100 (3.6s without launch control), neither has anyone that would do a competitive launch - so instantly I smell BS or terrible use of data.

My personal view is that motoring journalism has gone down the sh*tter and heavily influenced by not insulting manufactures just to get to the next press release weekend. Perfect recent example is the Huracan Performante - NO customer car performs anywhere near the "record" Nurburgring time (GT R actually beats it in non press H2Hs on tracks around the world).

Over the summer we will all find out, irrespective of what magazines say, from people like you and I who actually have to live with these cars day to day. My gut instinct (and hence my involvement in this forum), is that for the first time ever this M car is more about show/reviews/adverts than ground breaking development (I have never seen an M car advertised on TV until now, the M5 "the drift record king" ). Just like Ferrari decided that branding is more important than actual performance vs Porsche, McLaren etc. By the time the comp pack of the M5 comes out the E63 is 2 years old and both will be outperformed by the imminent RS6/7 anyway. The cycle goes on.
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      04-19-2018, 03:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonba View Post
I have answered you post - inline:

I am not insulting your or anyones ownership/worship of the M5.
No worship - just sticking to the facts.

I am just pointing out that BMW in the UK supplies these tyres, its their choice, they know far more than I do (but after looking what they are, I understand why they choose them for the UK and UK tracks). To my knowledge Mercedes-AMG UK and my personal car is also on the new Pirelli PZ4s. I have never heard of these tyres before, but i googled it today and it turns out they are not just "Pirelli PZs" and are not a bad choice for the climate we live in.

I am not arguing the fact the Pirelli's were used or why they are chosen for the UK - only that they were not the PS4's - and that made a significant performance difference.

Regarding times, and all the stuff that makes this forum stimulating, I have stated show me video and proof and I will believe it (and take my hat off). Take the SA timed review, I have a Vbox and I have never had 3.5s to 100 (3.6s without launch control), neither has anyone that would do a competitive launch - so instantly I smell BS or terrible use of data.

I am just making sure I understand what you are writing; are you stating because you have never run a sub 3 second 0-60 MPH run - - or that you haven't seen an owner VBOX result - that it isn't true?

My personal view is that motoring journalism has gone down the sh*tter and heavily influenced by not insulting manufactures just to get to the next press release weekend. Perfect recent example is the Huracan Performante - NO customer car performs anywhere near the "record" Nurburgring time (GT R actually beats it in non press H2Hs on tracks around the world).

I do not subscribe that ALL car journalism is sketchy and inaccurate. Although it does exist. Therefore, with the current results being that the majority of magazine testing has shown the F90 M5 is quicker and faster than the E63S - especially on a road course - I submit that this is a solid piece of evidence to support that.

Over the summer we will all find out, irrespective of what magazines say, from people like you and I who actually have to live with these cars day to day. My gut instinct (and hence my involvement in this forum), is that for the first time ever this M car is more about show/reviews/adverts than ground breaking development (I have never seen an M car advertised on TV until now, the M5 "the drift record king" ). Just like Ferrari decided that branding is more important than actual performance vs Porsche, McLaren etc. By the time the comp pack of the M5 comes out the E63 is 2 years old and both will be outperformed by the imminent RS6/7 anyway. The cycle goes on.

I agree the cycle goes on - and I agree there is a ton of hype. That said the hype is not BMW specific. Therefore the outcomes of private ownership - although difficult objectively to test due to a great deal of user skillset differences, will still prove out - more times than not - the same outcomes as the magazine community results.

We are in a great period as car enthusiasts to be alive. That cycle is producing the highest performing cars ever released to the Public.
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      04-19-2018, 04:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
My response to that is simple: if I compare two cars and put slicks on one and not the other - you are okay with the outcome? I recognize that there isn't the same disparity between my example and the actual test - but the point is that tires do make a significant difference. The key here is that the same tires used in the winning comparisons and those worn by the E63S - the PS4's - are an available tire. So as a testing criteria - to eliminate that factor - it would have been helpful to have the same tires.

As stated - the M5 beat the E63S by one SECOND with the same tires being used by both - so I submit - it's a relevant advantage.
We are talking about comparison tests here with cars as delivered from the factory. Cars should be tested that way as that is relevant to the customer.

All other things are nice to test but I am not sure to what end. They are different cars, putting the same tires on doesn't fully equalize the race. Still lots of other variables that play in.

The M5 had to beat the E63s. It is the newer car with an existing benchmark to beat. They had to create a credible AWD system, otherwise they would have taken a beating in the press.

Personally I would have expected a larger difference between the two given the 250lbs or so weight advantage.
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      04-19-2018, 04:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
We are talking about comparison tests here with cars as delivered from the factory. Cars should be tested that way as that is relevant to the customer.

All other things are nice to test but I am not sure to what end. They are different cars, putting the same tires on doesn't fully equalize the race. Still lots of other variables that play in.

The M5 had to beat the E63s. It is the newer car with an existing benchmark to beat. They had to create a credible AWD system, otherwise they would have taken a beating in the press.

Personally I would have expected a larger difference between the two given the 250lbs or so weight advantage.
Again - I am trying to stick to facts as opposed to bias. I recognize you are a MB guy - that is clear from your Avatar description and posts.

Here's why:

You state you are "surprised" the base 600 HP 533 lb ft F90 M5 did not have a larger difference in performance when compared to the 604 HP, 627 lb ft AMG E63...S? I will have to go ahead and ask you why not - factually please. By all accounts, as the general rule, each 10 lbs of weight is equal to a 1 HP difference, therefore the 250 lb difference is ~25 HP. The Merc is up nearly 100 ft lbs of torque however.

As to your point about equalizing the race - no - as they are completely different cars, with different outputs, chassis's and tunes - there are million of things different between the two cars. Tires however - the PS4's - which the F90 can come with - they are not aftermarket - is something that can and should be equalized in a comparison test - and it is something that makes a significant performance difference for ANY car. If BMW - in their wisdom - provide Pirelli tires ONLY for the F90 in the UK - as according to Goonba, they are so perfectly suited for the UK environment - while Mercedes - somehow in their infinite lack of wisdom it would seem having obviously missed this "well-known" information, chooses the Michelin PS4's (yet somehow getting much improved performance despite their apparent "inferiority" compared to the Pirelli's) there is not much I can say. For UK owners anyway.

So - Yes - if you live in the UK - Maybe give your BMW Rep a call. Swap your crappy Pirelli tires as your first mod and get what we have here in North America - from the BMW factory - and you will go from losing to the more powerful and higher tier E63S by one tenth of a second on a short, tight road course, where tires literally matter most, to beating the more powerful, higher tier E63S by a full SECOND.

Fairly clear to me. Objectively.

Last edited by vtknight; 04-19-2018 at 04:51 PM..
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      04-19-2018, 04:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfman64 View Post
Never heard of anyone ever setting up a comparison test where the use of the same tires was any criteria.
Furthermore, manufacturers deliver cars with their equipment of choice and that is how they are rated. If they made a bad choice due to the car breaking down or otherwise performing poorly, it is on them.

I don't think this is a bad choice because it likely reflects the reality of what customers end up having in their garage.
My response to that is simple: if I compare two cars and put slicks on one and not the other - you are okay with the outcome? I recognize that there isn't the same disparity between my example and the actual test - but the point is that tires do make a significant difference. The key here is that the same tires used in the winning comparisons and those worn by the E63S - the PS4's - are an available tire. So as a testing criteria - to eliminate that factor - it would have been helpful to have the same tires.

As stated - the M5 beat the E63S by one SECOND with the same tires being used by both - so I submit - it's a relevant advantage.
Actually the M5 in the Autozung test was on Pzero..... the new PZ4 is a faster tire and has pretty impressive grip , they came on my Turbo S and hands down they are softer/ faster AND less durable compound more temp finicky tire than the Michelin 4s or PSS . They do not however perform well in the cold , mine become bricks below 55 degrees .
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      04-19-2018, 04:58 PM   #17
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https://youtu.be/KOEHRFbf5q8

This is from the Sochi F1 circuit day (open to all). He VBoxes at around 6:33.

0-100 3.56s
0-200 11.47s

Positives: Very grippy for a big car, predictable on the limit, easy to drift, probably the best compromise between comfort and performance
Negatives: Engine lacks punch until high revs, ceramic breaks are poor, seats are form over function (sliding all over in turns)

BMW refused permission for all the other participants to VBox (weirdly). This is the only VBox from the day.
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      04-19-2018, 05:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonba View Post
https://youtu.be/KOEHRFbf5q8

This is from the Sochi F1 circuit day (open to all). He VBoxes at around 6:33.

0-100 3.56s
0-200 11.47s

Positives: Very grippy for a big car, predictable on the limit, easy to drift, probably the best compromise between comfort and performance
Negatives: Engine lacks punch until high revs, ceramic breaks are poor, seats are form over function (sliding all over in turns)

BMW refused permission for all the other participants to VBox (weirdly). This is the only VBox from the day.
Without knowing how he setup the car - I cannot comment. It's an individuals test.

What I CAN say is - if you think the AWD F90 M5 is only capable of a ~3.6 0-100 km/hr run - I am pretty sure you would not bet real money that someone - say me - can beat a ~3.6 0-100 km/hr run with the F90 M5 lol.
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      04-19-2018, 05:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Actually the M5 in the Autozung test was on Pzero..... the new PZ4 is a faster tire and has pretty impressive grip , they came on my Turbo S and hands down they are softer/ faster AND less durable compound more temp finicky tire than the Michelin 4s or PSS . They do not however perform well in the cold , mine become bricks below 55 degrees .
This is critical - temps and tire compounds. I can only comment that tires make a significant difference - and environment and very soft compound tires also has an affect as the PS4's are actually a much higher compound than the PZ4's and of course Pilot Sport Cup 2's.

This is why - testing two cars - it becomes critical to use the same tires in order to eliminate that factor as the differentiator to the outcomes of said test.
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      04-19-2018, 05:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Again - I am trying to stick to facts as opposed to bias. I recognize you are a MB guy - that is clear from your Avatar description and posts.

Here's why:

You state you are "surprised" the base 600 HP 533 lb ft F90 M5 did not have a larger difference in performance when compared to the 604 HP, 627 lb ft AMG E63...S? I will have to go ahead and ask you why not - factually please. By all accounts, as the general rule, each 10 lbs of weight is equal to a 1 HP difference, therefore the 250 lb difference is ~25 HP. The Merc is up nearly 100 ft lbs of torque however.

As to your point about equalizing the race - no - as they are completely different cars, with different outputs, chassis's and tunes - there are million of things different between the two cars. Tires however - the PS4's - which the F90 can come with - they are not aftermarket - is something that can and should be equalized in a comparison test - and it is something that makes a significant performance difference for ANY car. If BMW - in their wisdom - provide Pirelli tires ONLY for the F90 in the UK - as according to Goonba, they are so perfectly suited for the UK environment - while Mercedes - somehow in their infinite lack of wisdom it would seem having obviously missed this "well-known" information, chooses the Michelin PS4's (yet somehow getting much improved performance despite their apparent "inferiority" compared to the Pirelli's) there is not much I can say. For UK owners anyway.

So - Yes - if you live in the UK - Maybe give your BMW Rep a call. Swap your crappy Pirelli tires as your first mod and get what we have here in North America - from the BMW factory - and you will go from losing to the more powerful and higher tier E63S by one tenth of a second on a short, tight road course, where tires literally matter most, to beating the more powerful, higher tier E63S by a full SECOND.

Fairly clear to me. Objectively.
Both Mercedes and BMW provide Pirelli PZ4s in the UK as standard. No idea why some tests have Michelins for the E63, and certainly not convinced it makes any difference in UK weather on an abandoned runway or unmaintained track.

The torque range won the battle in Auto Express as it always does. Think he makes it clear that the E63 just rips more easily when kept in the sweet spot. I honestly think you are over thinking the whole tyre thing - BMW are not stupid to do this across Europe.
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      04-19-2018, 05:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtknight View Post
Without knowing how he setup the car - I cannot comment. It's an individuals test.

What I CAN say is - if you think the AWD F90 M5 is only capable of a ~3.6 0-100 km/hr run - I am pretty sure you would not bet real money that someone - say me - can beat a ~3.6 0-100 km/hr run with the F90 M5 lol.
The set up is pretty clear, Sport plus all over on a super grippy F1 circuit under the guidance of BMW. Surely, that is what you want.

Anyway, this result echoes the initial post run-in results mentioned on the Russian forums. They will do races in the next few weeks, this is what they do in Russia and it will be all over the internet.
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      04-19-2018, 05:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goonba View Post
https://youtu.be/KOEHRFbf5q8

This is from the Sochi F1 circuit day (open to all). He VBoxes at around 6:33.

0-100 3.56s
0-200 11.47s

Positives: Very grippy for a big car, predictable on the limit, easy to drift, probably the best compromise between comfort and performance
Negatives: Engine lacks punch until high revs, ceramic breaks are poor, seats are form over function (sliding all over in turns)

BMW refused permission for all the other participants to VBox (weirdly). This is the only VBox from the day.

I love this guy. 3 tests in the USA. Multiple tests in Europe. And now it’s all voided due to RUSSIA! Later it will be Asia.

vtknight, this guy is just an attention whore. He’s going to troll this forum for attention only. Zero tech. Zero cred.

I do give him props for bizarro comedic relief.
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