BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M5 F90 (2018+) General Forums F90 M5 vs...    Audi R8 RWS

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-26-2018, 09:37 AM   #1
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2856
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

This make me wonder what the F90 M5 would have been like if it was RWD only and instead featured new advanced traction management technology with stickier and wider rear tires with less weight over the front axle, less weight overall, and improved steering characteristics that are also found in this rare RWD version of the Audi R8.

The author states that he would get this R8 RWS and forget every other R8 offered because it's just that much more engaging to drive.

Or at least imagine this. If BMW offered two different versions of the F90 M5, one with AWD that retains the MxDrives ability to switch to RWD on the fly and a pure RWD only version optimized for a more engaging driving experience. Which would you choose? I would imagine it would be like choosing between a 911 Turbo S and a 911 GT3RS, or maybe even a GT2RS?

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/aud...ith-a-dilemma/
__________________


Appreciate 0
      02-27-2018, 01:22 AM   #2
frankchn
First Lieutenant
286
Rep
369
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

I think for its intended purpose of being a sporty executive express made for someone who is earning $300k+ a year, BMW made the right choice in going for AWD, which gets better real world performance for everyone on the street and the track unless they are professional drivers.

If BMW made a RWD F90 M5 as an option, I bet the take rate would be similar to the manual F10 M5s, which is to say miserable, and perhaps a money loser.

If people want a truly engaging driver’s car for the weekend, any of the super sedans would be a compromise, AWD or not, and they are better off buying an R8, a 911 GT3, or even stretching for a 570S instead.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2018, 09:29 AM   #3
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2856
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankchn View Post
I think for its intended purpose of being a sporty executive express made for someone who is earning $300k+ a year, BMW made the right choice in going for AWD, which gets better real world performance for everyone on the street and the track unless they are professional drivers.

If BMW made a RWD F90 M5 as an option, I bet the take rate would be similar to the manual F10 M5s, which is to say miserable, and perhaps a money loser.

If people want a truly engaging driver’s car for the weekend, any of the super sedans would be a compromise, AWD or not, and they are better off buying an R8, a 911 GT3, or even stretching for a 570S instead.
I respectfully disagree sir. Perfect example, E39 M5. A car that could be used as a daily driver absolutely. The problem you allude to really has to do with curb weight of these super sedans these days. I know that if ///M made an alternate version of the F90 M5 with a RWD only setup that was 250lbs lighter, had better steering feedback, less understeer, featured less options such as no Night Vision, but also included optional carbon front seats or something to make the car more sporty, wider rear tires (say 305mm), hell they could even give it less power and torque just like Lambo does with the LP580 Huracan, and I would be the first one at the dealer to buy such a car. They could even go with a lighter less powerful naturally aspirated engine for such a RWD M5, say put the V10 back in and give it only 570hp, and I'd probably sell one of my kidneys for such a car. Yes such a super sedan would be slower than a turbo AWD M5 in the 1/4 mile and from 0-60, but being about 350lbs lighter overall, it would be such a better drivers car and decimate all other contenders on a track and canyon roads.

I guess my point is that the BMW M550i already achieves that fast, comfortable, turbo luxury sedan feel that is usuable every day on the street. ///M cars should have still focused on the driver experience with superb steering feedback, an responsive engine that communicates, a lighter chassis built for the race track, superior traction management without the need for AWD, a transmission that requires real driver input, and lastly more aerodynamics built into it for better downforce, grip and handling. All of these attributes can be built into a sports sedan, and I think ///M has forgotten that. The R8, GT3, and 570S are all fantastic cars, but they are all single use cars. The M5 is supposed to be able to do it all, including have that same race car driving experience as you would get in a GT3. At least this is what the E28 M5 had when it first came out.

And I think this is what the article about the R8 RWS is all about. Driving the car that is the better drivers car.
__________________


Appreciate 1
      03-01-2018, 11:29 AM   #4
frankchn
First Lieutenant
286
Rep
369
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I respectfully disagree sir. Perfect example, E39 M5. A car that could be used as a daily driver absolutely. The problem you allude to really has to do with curb weight of these super sedans these days. I know that if ///M made an alternate version of the F90 M5 with a RWD only setup that was 250lbs lighter, had better steering feedback, less understeer, featured less options such as no Night Vision, but also included optional carbon front seats or something to make the car more sporty, wider rear tires (say 305mm), hell they could even give it less power and torque just like Lambo does with the LP580 Huracan, and I would be the first one at the dealer to buy such a car. They could even go with a lighter less powerful naturally aspirated engine for such a RWD M5, say put the V10 back in and give it only 570hp, and I'd probably sell one of my kidneys for such a car. Yes such a super sedan would be slower than a turbo AWD M5 in the 1/4 mile and from 0-60, but being about 350lbs lighter overall, it would be such a better drivers car and decimate all other contenders on a track and canyon roads.

I guess my point is that the BMW M550i already achieves that fast, comfortable, turbo luxury sedan feel that is usuable every day on the street. ///M cars should have still focused on the driver experience with superb steering feedback, an responsive engine that communicates, a lighter chassis built for the race track, superior traction management without the need for AWD, a transmission that requires real driver input, and lastly more aerodynamics built into it for better downforce, grip and handling. All of these attributes can be built into a sports sedan, and I think ///M has forgotten that. The R8, GT3, and 570S are all fantastic cars, but they are all single use cars. The M5 is supposed to be able to do it all, including have that same race car driving experience as you would get in a GT3. At least this is what the E28 M5 had when it first came out.

And I think this is what the article about the R8 RWS is all about. Driving the car that is the better drivers car.
Yeah, I think we disagree on what an M5's audience should be.

Regarding the E39 M5, I feel like even in that generation, I would pick one of the 996 911s over a E39 M5 (heresy, I know) -- those had "back seats" too . The E39 was a heavy beast for its time with a >4000 lb curb weight (compared to 3400 lbs in a 996 Turbo, and 4250 lbs in the F90 M5), and that must have dampened out some of the driver engagement and fun on the track. It also came with options such as navigation, a electric rear window sunblind, a 6 CD changer, comfort seats and alcantara headliners, so it is not completely pure either. I think the nature of the frills have changed over the last 15 years, but BMW M5s always had frills to make it nice as an autobahn cruiser.

In any case, when defining the market for the F90, BMW has probably surveyed the market and realized that people who buy $100,000+ sedans new want comfort (hey B&W sound system and rear-seat entertainment ) and most of them never take it to the track (or probably even over >100mph).

I think a lot of M purists wish that BMW will return to building raw cars, but I am not sure that is realistic in this day and age. Heck, even Porsche almost went under when they only built 911s and Boxsters, and nowadays they really are an SUV company that also happens to build some sports cars.

Maybe BMW will make a CS version for people who don't want frills (in the same way the R8 had a RWS version), but I think it is unrealistic to expect a "pure" no frills driving experience from any base model M cars. Not enough people would buy them to make it profitable.
Appreciate 0
      03-01-2018, 11:45 AM   #5
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2856
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankchn View Post

Heck, even Porsche almost went under when they only built 911s and Boxsters, and nowadays they really are an SUV company that also happens to build some sports cars.
Ha! Ain't that the truth! Lol! The Macan is their most important model and the real money maker for them these days absolutely. Sadly, you are correct though. 99% of M5 buyers are not the type to go to the race track or do a spirited canyon run every weekend, but then again neither are Porsche 911 buyers either. Heck even Lambo Huracan owners don't even drive that car to the full potential on a regular basis. For everyday usable performance, yes the F90 M5 is currently at its zenith. I'll make an assessment when I get my chance at behind the wheel of an F90 M5, and I know it'll be fast, but whether I'll actually enjoy the drive, I don't know. I will be the first one to admit though that a bone stock Pre-LCI F10 M5 was definitely not a great drivers car either, but with modifications it has become one of the very best. So we shall see.
__________________


Appreciate 2
frankchn286.00
      03-05-2018, 03:34 PM   #6
stealth.pilot
Knight Commander
stealth.pilot's Avatar
United Kingdom
554
Rep
5,948
Posts

Drives: 2014 911 Turbo S
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buckhead

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
This make me wonder what the F90 M5 would have been like if it was RWD only and instead featured new advanced traction management technology with stickier and wider rear tires with less weight over the front axle, less weight overall, and improved steering characteristics that are also found in this rare RWD version of the Audi R8.

The author states that he would get this R8 RWS and forget every other R8 offered because it's just that much more engaging to drive.

Or at least imagine this. If BMW offered two different versions of the F90 M5, one with AWD that retains the MxDrives ability to switch to RWD on the fly and a pure RWD only version optimized for a more engaging driving experience. Which would you choose? I would imagine it would be like choosing between a 911 Turbo S and a 911 GT3RS, or maybe even a GT2RS?

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/aud...ith-a-dilemma/
I don't think there is much inspiration BMW can draw from the R8.

The R8 is rear--mounted mid-engined with a short wheel base. This configuration works well because there is plenty of weight over the rear wheels to ensure traction. The same is true of the McLarens and rear-engined Ferraris.

The M5 is long wheel base and front-mounted engine. This means there is far too little weight over the rear axle.

There is nothing BMW can do with clever electronics to offset the traction disadvantage of a RWD M5. Nothing other than give it AWD.
__________________
2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS 580
2020 Mercedes-Benz GLE 450
Ordered: EQS580, BMW IX, Lucid Air Touring, Corvette Stingray
Appreciate 0
      03-06-2018, 11:25 AM   #7
RPiM5
Major General
RPiM5's Avatar
2856
Rep
7,883
Posts

Drives: Mexico Blue F10 M5(Mika)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sunny San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
This make me wonder what the F90 M5 would have been like if it was RWD only and instead featured new advanced traction management technology with stickier and wider rear tires with less weight over the front axle, less weight overall, and improved steering characteristics that are also found in this rare RWD version of the Audi R8.

The author states that he would get this R8 RWS and forget every other R8 offered because it's just that much more engaging to drive.

Or at least imagine this. If BMW offered two different versions of the F90 M5, one with AWD that retains the MxDrives ability to switch to RWD on the fly and a pure RWD only version optimized for a more engaging driving experience. Which would you choose? I would imagine it would be like choosing between a 911 Turbo S and a 911 GT3RS, or maybe even a GT2RS?

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/aud...ith-a-dilemma/
I don't think there is much inspiration BMW can draw from the R8.

The R8 is rear--mounted mid-engined with a short wheel base. This configuration works well because there is plenty of weight over the rear wheels to ensure traction. The same is true of the McLarens and rear-engined Ferraris.

The M5 is long wheel base and front-mounted engine. This means there is far too little weight over the rear axle.

There is nothing BMW can do with clever electronics to offset the traction disadvantage of a RWD M5. Nothing other than give it AWD.
As always Stealth, you are the voice of reason and sensibility. I agree with you. With that said, I am looking forward to the 2025 G90 M5 in hopes that it will at least lose the S63 engine and change it out for something different.
__________________


Appreciate 0
      03-06-2018, 02:44 PM   #8
stealth.pilot
Knight Commander
stealth.pilot's Avatar
United Kingdom
554
Rep
5,948
Posts

Drives: 2014 911 Turbo S
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Buckhead

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stealth.pilot View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
This make me wonder what the F90 M5 would have been like if it was RWD only and instead featured new advanced traction management technology with stickier and wider rear tires with less weight over the front axle, less weight overall, and improved steering characteristics that are also found in this rare RWD version of the Audi R8.

The author states that he would get this R8 RWS and forget every other R8 offered because it's just that much more engaging to drive.

Or at least imagine this. If BMW offered two different versions of the F90 M5, one with AWD that retains the MxDrives ability to switch to RWD on the fly and a pure RWD only version optimized for a more engaging driving experience. Which would you choose? I would imagine it would be like choosing between a 911 Turbo S and a 911 GT3RS, or maybe even a GT2RS?

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/aud...ith-a-dilemma/
I don't think there is much inspiration BMW can draw from the R8.

The R8 is rear--mounted mid-engined with a short wheel base. This configuration works well because there is plenty of weight over the rear wheels to ensure traction. The same is true of the McLarens and rear-engined Ferraris.

The M5 is long wheel base and front-mounted engine. This means there is far too little weight over the rear axle.

There is nothing BMW can do with clever electronics to offset the traction disadvantage of a RWD M5. Nothing other than give it AWD.
As always Stealth, you are the voice of reason and sensibility. I agree with you. With that said, I am looking forward to the 2025 G90 M5 in hopes that it will at least lose the S63 engine and change it out for something different.
By then it better be a hybrid with electric turbos.
__________________
2022 Mercedes-Benz EQS 580
2020 Mercedes-Benz GLE 450
Ordered: EQS580, BMW IX, Lucid Air Touring, Corvette Stingray
Appreciate 0
      03-20-2018, 08:25 PM   #9
irishbimmer
Banned
1139
Rep
1,561
Posts

Drives: Silverstone M6 CP, Bulldozer,
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
Ha! Ain't that the truth! Lol! The Macan is their most important model and the real money maker for them these days absolutely. Sadly, you are correct though. 99% of M5 buyers are not the type to go to the race track or do a spirited canyon run every weekend, but then again neither are Porsche 911 buyers either. Heck even Lambo Huracan owners don't even drive that car to the full potential on a regular basis. For everyday usable performance, yes the F90 M5 is currently at its zenith. I'll make an assessment when I get my chance at behind the wheel of an F90 M5, and I know it'll be fast, but whether I'll actually enjoy the drive, I don't know. I will be the first one to admit though that a bone stock Pre-LCI F10 M5 was definitely not a great drivers car either, but with modifications it has become one of the very best. So we shall see.
i truly enjoy my F-10 M5; especially the quality and torque, but I no longer take it for canyon runs like my V10 M6 because it just isn't as much fun. Very hard to describe for those that love the F10.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:43 AM.




m5post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST