[Southern Jay]

I feel compelled to make this post after my experience at hospital yesterday, the reason for the visit was the birth of our 3rd, a healthy boy, although our last was nearly 10 years ago.

I often see reports about our NHS being underfunded (which I think is fucking disgusting, perhaps politicians should live a few days in the lives of any of our emergency services) but despite the long hours and minimal salary these front line individuals work/receive the dedication and way they conduct themselves really humbles me. My wife was really struggling when we got out the lift at the hospital and was on the floor unable to get up, this was her coping method, not me just stood watching her. within no more than 30 seconds we had 2 midwives at her side assisting, the rest of our experience was nothing short of brilliant and we were back home last night with our new addition.

I think our emergency services should get so much more than they do, they really are modern day heroes.

Jay

[Rbrown]

Well said!

I used to work in the NHS and people’s dedication is amazing. They do a hard job!

Unfortunately, some people have bad experiences. But, let’s face it, we are all glad that they are there when we need them!

Congratulations on the new arrival. Hope all are well - enjoy the sleep!!!!

[Southern Jay]

Originally Posted by Incontinentia Buttocks

I agree that the NHS is excellent. Oh, congratulations by the way. I don't agree it's underfunded. I believe it's badly managed in many cases, and overused. The taxpayer funds the NHS to the tune of £124 billion a year.

Fair enough mate,

I'm no expert in this field, badly managed is also completely unacceptable, the amount of paperwork the midwives had to fill out was shocking, let them focus on patients not poxy paperwork, this applies again to all our emergency services,

I agree Rbrown, people do have bad experiences, and that's usually all your hear about, I'm one for making noise and giving credit where its due, as a child I came through the care system due to abuse and alcoholic parents, despite being in one of the traditional institutes initially I ended up with a foster carer in a family environment and consider myself one of the lucky ones.

[mikeoz]

Congrats on the name family member.
Iv also had good treatment and my wife also. Can't complain.

[Soul_Glo]

My local Clinical Commissioning Group is 38 million in debt. Services are subsidised to keep other parts of the service running. Having worked for the NHS more than 15 years, I have seen good and bad. It is a postcode lottery and depends on the individuals you come into contact with. Some care and some don't. Some are overwhelmed and badly managed. It is good to hear you had a positive experience and congratulations.

What helps us is to know what we did well and how we can improve. Individuals can always do with recognition. So my suggestion is you write to PALS or the charge nurse with what was good. They can keep this in mind and encourage their staff.

[Kal101]

You can’t knock the NHS.

The only problem is that any health service is always going to be a bottomless pit.

You’ve got new drugs , new procedures ,longer lives, better disease treatments,higher expectations and it all costs.

Add onto that the time waster who think nothing of calling out an ambulance because they’ve coughed twice or because they’re drunk and want a lift and you can see the costs rising.

Biggest asset the NHS has are its dedicated staff who will go the extra mile , who will smile ( even though they may be suffering personal tragedies and working long hours -way beyond their allocated shift ) . The same people who certain parts of society demean and insult because it’s their job .

Anyway rant over.

Hearty congratulations Southern Jay - want to see pics of that msport pram

[Southern Jay]

Originally Posted by Kal027

You can’t knock the NHS.

Biggest asset the NHS has are its dedicated staff who will go the extra mile , who will smile ( even though they may be suffering personal tragedies and working long hours -way beyond their allocated shift ) . The same people who certain parts of society demean and insult because it’s their job .

Hearty congratulations Southern Jay - want to see pics of that msport pram

I'm not massively articulate and often what I want to say is let down by my ability to put together a sentence properly, Kal hits the nail on the head right here,

And no fear there is a stormtrooper buggy inbound

[willjames]

NHS are superb, I've received lots of Treatment in the past and still rely on them heavily...can't say enough great things about them.

I know something, if I had lived in a third world country there's a good chance I wouldn't be here right now.

Biggest gamble in life...is where your born.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Congrats OP.

On the NHS.

The NHS and its staff on a whole are brilliant.

Unfortunately a lot of those attending are not.

Ever been to A&E at a weekend, or A&E in general.

When I had to attend New Cross Hospital last year, I initially used 111 and received a prompt appointment with doctor at New Cross, was put straight at front of appointments with the Doctor pretty much saying at last she had someone genuinely ill person to deal with.

She marked my letter for A&E with Urgent for A&E doctor and was admitted straight off on Emergency Observation ward within two hours and then ward the next day.

This is the 2nd time since 2012 I have tried this dying thing and so far NHS have been great.

I have BUPA but never used them as everything has been an emergency admission.

[MarkG_M5Comp]

Congratulations Jay.

Originally Posted by Incontinentia Buttocks

I agree that the NHS is excellent. Oh, congratulations by the way. I don't agree it's underfunded. I believe it's badly managed in many cases, and overused. The taxpayer funds the NHS to the tune of £124 billion a year.

Granted there is some poor management in the NHS, just like any other large organisation. However it is indeed drastically underfunded for the current level of output/service expected from the public.

Don't believe me?

Take Lobb for example - A decent earner (assumed) over the years, put in more than the average Joe in taxes to (among other things) help fund the NHS. Topped off this with private healthcare (which the majority do not). Had his treatment been funded by the NHS, it would have most likely taken more than he paid in over his career, for 'one' condition.

In numbers (all at today's figures for ease):

Let's assume everyone earns £50k p/a (which they clearly do not!)
Let's assume everyone earns that £50k p/s for their entire career of 35 years (I don't know anyone you has!)
That individual pays roughly £87,500 into the NHS over the span of their working life

How far does £87,500 go:
1 broken bone - £5,000
1 joint replacement - £7,000
Asthma over 10 years - £3,000
1 minor inpatient surgery - £3,000
2 babies - £8,000
2 outpatient consultations (eg. endoscopy) - £1,000
10 GP visits - £750

So less than £30k so far... all good. But then:

Unfortunate 'straightforward' cancer - £30-40,000
Car accident requiring ambulance and follow-up - £15,000

Now we're at £70-80k for this one patient, but remember this person paid in £87,500 because they worked for 35 years and earned £50k p/a so we're good right?

Oh wait, now this guy/girl still retires after 35 years but is going to live for an extra 15 years. His/her kids are going to live for an extra 20+ years... 1 of them is obese and has to see a doctor every month to prepare for a £10k bypass procedure.

Oh, and of the people who live in his street, 5 don't pay anything in as they're on benefits, 5 more earn average pay of £25k so pay in half, but 1 is in the top 1% so that's OK - they fund loads.

All in, with this one street of 12 people the total paid in per person (still assuming they all work for 35 years) has now dropped to £47k. They all still expect an ambulance if they fall off a ladder, they all still expect to see their GP when they demand even though a new KFC opened at the bottom of their street which is just too enticing.

In my entirely fictional illustration of 12 people, we're already screwed. Yes, the NHS is underfunded.

Time to wake up and realise we need to pay more or expect less.

[Darth Helmut]

Originally Posted by MarkG_M3CP

Time to wake up and realise we need to pay more or expect less.

Or just cull a % of the population?

Good example though Mark and it makes some realise it really isnt free (unless you are dole scrounging layabout). I do however agree that the amount of money spent on 'management', sub contracts and wastage is disgraceful and needs thinning out considerably. But alas we also have too many people taking out and not enough paying in.

[TouringPleb]

My personal feeling is that the NHS in its present state isn't sustainable in the long term. We need a discussion as to what kind of NHS we want and what we are prepared to pay for.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

My personal feeling is that the NHS in its present state isn't sustainable in the long term. We need a discussion as to what kind of NHS we want and what we are prepared to pay for.

Agreed, if you take marks example.

It's staggering.

Add in genetic complications, where stuff is passed down through families.

Contentious as fuck but is that any different than treating fat people or smokers or alcoholics ?

(I know it's not, but it's an example of a really contentious issue)

The other one is how long should we be keeping people alive?

Is there in the future a limit?



Not sure if it is the same but back in 2010 or so, I believe East Anglia had more hospitals and beds than greater Manchester, even though Greater Manchester dwarfed its population.

Should every single hospital have the latest and greatest cutting edge technology?

Or should it be some many per x population area?

Mother Nature is no doubt planning a major cull soon.

I think the generation just born or about to be born will find it impossible to cover NHS, house prices etc.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

My personal feeling is that the NHS in its present state isn't sustainable in the long term. We need a discussion as to what kind of NHS we want and what we are prepared to pay for.

I would take it up a level and have a societal debate on what kind of healthcare system we want first. We need to agree what its purpose is and to what level of service we should be expecting.
The NHS may be the right solution, but it may not be, depending on what we really want from it.
I don't get the fixation on keeping it at all costs, and if it is the right way to fund and administer healthcare then it'll stand up to scrutiny.

[Kal101]

Now to make it really contentious

Working indirectly for the NHS I get to see the less salubrious customers who whilst not paying into the system probably account for significant inroads into the communal pot

They will never see their drain on limited resources as unacceptable or unnecessary but prefer to blame others unnecessarily.

About time some personal responsibility was accepted or enforced.

Again unfortunately not sure how this would be done without draconian measures being out in place which would be politically unacceptable.

[Carjack]

The popular question seems to be: ‘what do people want out of the NHS’.
Surely we know what people want, they want an efficient NHS, to be seen by qualified nurses and doctors for accurate diagnosis and a quick cure, all free of charge.
My son was an NHS doctor for 7 years and has now moved out of the NHS and his belief is that with the rapidly increasing population, the salaries paid, the high cost of medical equipment it will be impossible for any government to put sufficient money in unless taxes are raised to a really dramatic height.
Unfortunately the infrastructure of the NHS being what it is only a small proportion of the money raised would be available to make any difference.
The best alternative would be if patients made a contribution of the cost of their treatment.
This would for sure reduce patient numbers considerable.
Tough no doubt.
But is this not the way most western country’s health services operate and the press say most of these are so much better than the NHS.
I personally cannot fault the medical skills of our local hospitals on the ocassions I have had to visit, other than in the reception areas where there has been a feeling of indolence, tiredness, I’m over worked, wish I wasn’t doing this job, not another customer.
Very rarely have I had a smile.
All very far from the reception areas of private industry.
Yes, I believe there is something wrong with the whole attitude of some staff working in the NHS.
I don’t think it’s necessarily pay or working conditions as I believe they are better than the outside world.
I do not think it is a question of just money it’s an attitude to a job and an attitude of the press and people to make political issue of the NHS and to run it down if they can.
The NHS does a lot of good in the U.K. and we should sing it’s praises for sure!

[MarkG_M5Comp]

Originally Posted by Carjack

The popular question seems to be: ‘what do people want out of the NHS’.
Surely we know what people want, they want an efficient NHS, to be seen by qualified nurses and doctors for accurate diagnosis and a quick cure, all free of charge.
My son was an NHS doctor for 7 years and has now moved out of the NHS and his belief is that with the rapidly increasing population, the salaries paid, the high cost of medical equipment it will be impossible for any government to put sufficient money in unless taxes are raised to a really dramatic height.
Unfortunately the infrastructure of the NHS being what it is only a small proportion of the money raised would be available to make any difference.
The best alternative would be if patients made a contribution of the cost of their treatment.
This would for sure reduce patient numbers considerable.
Tough no doubt.
But is this not the way most western country’s health services operate and the press say most of these are so much better than the NHS.
I personally cannot fault the medical skills of our local hospitals on the ocassions I have had to visit, other than in the reception areas where there has been a feeling of indolence, tiredness, I’m over worked, wish I wasn’t doing this job, not another customer.
Very rarely have I had a smile.
All very far from the reception areas of private industry.
Yes, I believe there is something wrong with the whole attitude of some staff working in the NHS.
I don’t think it’s necessarily pay or working conditions as I believe they are better than the outside world.
I do not think it is a question of just money it’s an attitude to a job and an attitude of the press and people to make political issue of the NHS and to run it down if they can.
The NHS does a lot of good in the U.K. and we should sing it’s praises for sure!

Just picking up on a few highlights points:

You've missed the point on 'what people want' - yes we want all of the above, but we also 'want' cheap eye tests, cheap dental, free GP visits, free trauma care, free long term care, free contraceptives, free palliative care, free everything when we're out of work... The decision needs to be at what level the NHS kicks in. Personally I'd happily pay a small fee for a GP visit and an excess for more significant inpatient treatment. I also 100% believe that self-inflicted trauma treatment should be insured against (self or via group schemes) and not funded by the NHS. It's the unplanned activity that's killing the system; an NHS provider can map out (with the CCG) what provision will be needed for the next 50 years but simply cannot plan for people showing up at A&E!

Population increase - yes partly correct but more specifically the increased number of old people since we're living longer. The same number pay in, more take out, not rocket science. Salaries? Blame the advent of the NMW back in the 40s - physicians wanted the option to work outside of the system and that has driven up salaries ever since. Cost of medical equipment - absolutely not; out of the £120bn annual budget, medical devices and technology accounts for less than £3bn. Providers needs to embrace technology which for the main part reduces costs - every other sector has done this, healthcare has not. Of the Provider total budget (£70bn approx.), £45bn is pay so just £25bn is free to invest in the present future - now that is under funding.

Other countries better than the NHS? Don't bet on it. Germany is propped up by business (Sick Funds filled by employers), Spain is broken but took the tough decisions meaning there is no care for inpatients (the patient's family is largely responsible for feeding, watering, washing and caring for their relative while the patient is responsible for keeping their medical records with them!). In the UK we do all that and every NHS Trust has a huge warehouse filled with paper records, managed, transported all over and retained until long after the patient dies - that's poor adaptation of technology and questionable management. What happened to the Digital NHS? The tenders were awarded, systems purchased and the whole lot failed since the system was unable to adapt to it - hundreds of millions wasted.

I have little doubt we'll lose the NHS within my lifetime. That's incredibly sad but I see not British Government being in a secure enough position to start the honest debate needed; can you imagine Teresa May giving a speech tomorrow which starts with 'Everyone will pay an extra £1,000 per year starting now...' - she'd last 10 minutes. So people contributing - unlikely to move beyond the optional private healthcare scheme we have today.