[robocog]

Hi, thanks for letting me join here

We have a 2006/2007 BMW e90 (320d) and recently someone ran into the side of us (offside got scrunched)
(bear in mind we are in the UK and we drive on the left - so the right hand side took the hit - both doors and the sill to some extent)

The car got fully repaired and you wouldn't be able to tell - did a great job, however shortly after I noticed the outside temperature seemed to be wandering all over the place and triggering the ice alert alarm - when it was definitely not cold enough in reality
I also noted that the dash info screen which has this info displayed is also turning off and back on

I do not use the car that often (it's the Mrs's) so there was quite a gap between me driving it and the repair
I asked the Mrs if she had noticed it, - she had ...but she couldn't tell me how long it had been doing this

I assumed it was just the sensor had gone bad and took it into a garage to have the sensor replaced...

The garage did this but did say that the fault is still there (and it was not the sensor)
They did say they could send the dash off to be repaired - but at great cost (over £180) and with no guarantees that it could be fixed or that it was the cause of the fault....

The situation seems to be getting worse - and is driving me nuts constantly pinging and flashing off and on
It also has started a new trick of forgetting the date and time
I also noted that if you are changing the time - it can reset whilst trying to change the numbers.. and sends you back to the last menu...grrrrr

I have video'd what it is doing and will upload to youtube if would help with the diagnosis

I did read that it /could/ be just a loose wire to the back of the dash - or a broken trace on the circuit board on the dash?

So I took the dash out and opened up the clocks.The board and components all look good (nothing obvious, no smells,no stains or bulging caps)
I put it all back together hoping it would turn out to be just a dirty connection and putting it back would resolve the issue...but it hasn't seemingly made any difference

I have taken a photo of the circuit board at the back - and it has occurred to me I didn't remove the needles to look at the other side - in other cases where similar has happened I have read the traces can be the issue - but not seen any reference to which side or roughly in what area they "go"

I can give links to the video and the images of the back of the dash if it helps?

I have emailed a company to see if they can "test" the clocks if I drop them into one of their outlets, but heard nothing in reply

I have oscilloscopes and meters and enough knowledge of how to use them...but not a clue where I should be looking WRT the car to check
(was going to look into checking for can bus noise and check for symmetry...but where from? OBC port?- I don't have any manuals for this car and completely lost where to start and wouldn't know what modules are where to start pulling them to find the source of any noise - IF this is the cause)

TBH I'm still trying to get to grips with what parts are called what - I am right in saying the "dash console" is called the KOMBI? - and that the temp sensor plugs straight into this unit (possibly just a thermally variable resistor?) so I /could/ possibly probe the lines to check that I have a feed and return and they are neither broken nor shorted?
Does this in a way rule out that it can 'only be the dash' at fault once I have checked the wiring to the sensor is sound?.. as the temp sensor doesn't go via anything else?
I suppose replacing the sensor with an equivalent resistor temporarily would also be an option to assist diagnosis?

I'm sure there are plenty of modules scattered about the car - and when searching for locations of likely suspects for units that may be exposed to moisture or just need unplugging / re plugging that could cause such issues- ours doesn't seem to have a module in that location (by battery, boot floor, passenger side boot floor)

I am wondering if we should take the car back to the place that did the repairs - but I'm pretty sure that because we have just ignored it for so long they are going to tell us to get on our bikes

Of course the impact damage and repair may just be a total co-incidence to the timing of our issues, but still leaves me with a huge headache of where to start to try and get this sorted

No other faults are thrown to the dash - just the constantly pinging ice alert and the fact that part of the screen is turning off and back on - and the date and time seem to be being "deleted" back to --------- every now and again, so it shouldn't mean it fails an MOT, but it is damned annoying to live with!

Sorry for so many questions - and hopefully given enough detail for someone to assist without much guesswork

Thanks in advance
Regards
Rob

[robocog]

Anyone got any advice for the pinouts for the dash clocks even?
Green with orange stripe is KCAN high
Green is KCAN low

But the temp sensor colours or positions (at the dash clocks connector?)

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, even a phone number of someone reputable and loacal ish if the info I need to try and self diagnose is not publicly available

Surprised I haven't had ANY replies at all - have I posted it in the wrong section?
(am I being impatient?)

Regards
Rob

[Len_Beach]

Have you read the codes?

[robocog]

No, not yet - I do not have a reader either, so I was hoping to try and do "something towards diagnosis" before paying to have it read

If I could "isolate" the temp sensor (and its wiring) from the dash clocks and retest
Maybe plug in a fixed equivalent resistor in its place and see what the dash makes of that

If it still behaves erratically without the sensor or with a fixed value in place then the chances are the "KOMBI" is at fault?

Will see if I can find a garage willing to code read it and report back

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

Had someone read the codes today
I do not know what software etc, but could find out if it makes a difference
He said there were lots of codes - some would have been old
He cleared some and got 2 that were "current"

There is an A6D1 - waterpump fail
and another code for
outside temp sensor out of range or intermittent
(have messaged him to see if he still has it written down)

He seemed confident that he could get to the sensor and swap it for a known good one - and check the wiring for shorts or open circuits if it needed it - we will need to book it in for the day for this...but the info sections blinking off and on was an issue he had not encountered before

I do not seem to be getting any notifications for this thread (I did set them to email me if anyone replied!)
Will check back with the sensor code if he gets back to me

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

I see there is a technical section for the UK
Can this thread be moved there if it is more likely to get a reply there??
(I can't see how to do this)

Can anyone please assist me ?
Regards
Rob

[rasa bmw]

this is uk tech section..or has this been moved from elsewhere ?forget that,ive just seen it on normal forum.

[robocog]

- a MASSIVE thanks to the admin fellows - who must have done this for me (I did send a message asking if this was possible - only a few minutes ago as well!)
I am also getting email alerts for replies now

Regards
Rob

[therealdb1]

Hi Rob, whilst you appear to have some electrical knowledge you have to accept that the electronics on these cars is extremely complex and you cannot think of them in analogue terms.
The days of a loose wire or an obviously faulty electronic component are long gone.
Sure the outside temperature sensor is a simple resistance device but it will certainly not be connected directly to the instrument binacle where the readout is and its reading will bounce around several modules before it tells you what the temperature outside is. Its first port of call is probably the module that controls your heating and ventilation but I cannot confirm that off the top of my head.
Having said that, from your fault description of the time being deleted and part of the display disappearing into dashes it sounds like there is either a problem with the instrument cluster itself or some of the modules that drive it depending upon what the information is that is being lost.
I doubt if this problem would show as a fault code if it is the display panel and you will probably need expert assistance to delve deeper. You say that you have contacted one company but there must be others around if you search hard enough. Try phoning them as you are more likely to get a response than sending an e-mail which is easily overlooked or ignored.
In the meantime it is well worth getting your own code reading equipement as it will pay for itself after one use. IMHO INPA is best but the downside is that you need to install it on a computer (laptop generally!) to connect to the car but others on this forum will recommend their favourites like the Carly App etc.

[robocog]

Yes, many years of playing with analogue, and very basic digital stuff
Other vehicles I have are on carbs and CDI ignition
The toy car I own is running megasquirt 1,(homebuilt ECU for sparks and fuel) which I thought was quite advanced - I think the later versions can have canbus...but the version I have is really quite basic in comparison...but rock solid!

None have ODB ports (bikes were born long before its birth) - and the megasquirt has serial AND bluetooth so I can play with stuff from my phone or laptop, wired or wireless, the bikes seem happy enough as long as I keep them fed with fuel/oil and water and are simple enough creatures that not a lot can go wrong (had diodes as interlocks for neutral/clutch/sidestand/starter matrix...LOL)

I have found a manual (YAY!)
Looking at page 236 of it
(http://iocoder.com/upload/uploads/E90_Electrical.pdf)

It would seem the outside temp (bl/rt and bl/br) goes to A4010 (junction box?) and then to A2a (Instrument cluster control module) with the same colour wires

I suppose my questions are
Is A2a (Instument cluster control module) a different thing to the dash clocks / KOMBI?
(looking at the last page in that linked manual /suggests/ they are the same thing to me)

In which case - it looks like the external temp sensor does indeed hook straight to the cluster (bl/rt and bl/br) - it only seems to go through a junction box along its path?

This could well give me something to go on
(eg does it still do this with no sensor - does the dash put out a sensible and stable voltage to the sensor - does the sensor wires (in a disconnected state) show a stable resistance reading - and with no voltage or shorts on them! - putting a known fixed resistor in place of the sensor - does the fault still exhist - is the temp reading stable)

Getting another set of clocks is an option (they seem cheap) - but blanking them to get them to pick up the mileage without a tamper dot ...
(and I would hope that I wont need to do this again in my lifetime - so would be a waste me buying an r270 in attempting to do so as a one off job on the Mrs car)

Does anyone in the UK (maybe even on here) offer a virginining service for dash clocks?
Maybe it would work out least hassle/expensive way - just swap the cluster and see if the issue is the same?

Regards
Rob

[therealdb1]

Well there you go you learn something every day!
It seems in this case BMW have taken a simple option and the Bentley Manual confirms that the outside temperature sensor is hard wired to the instrument cluster.
So in theory you should be able to substitute a fixed resistor where the blue/red and blue/brown wires are and see if it clears that fault.
I still don't see how that would cause the clock to fail but one mountain at a time!

[robocog]

Indeed.
I guess the simple resistance gets turned into bus data at this point for other stuff to use - I haven't thought about using the radio to see what that makes of the outside temps (Think this car has that option or am I thinking of the E46 we had??)

I have bought a kcan to usb dongle and downloaded some software (from this site)
I will dig out the megasquirt laptop and see if I can get it working when the dongle arrives
Looks like I'm going to need to look into how to drive the software, must be some good tutorials on here

Held back from buying an R270 programmer ,spare m35080's and sot clips - as I am desperately hoping I can find someone that can do this for money rather than me struggle and possibly make a mess of it and have yet another piece of programming equipment I will never use again

I think I read the chip can be transferred from one dash to the other, but would need absolute confirmation before I would attempt it
(have some quickchip and done smaller solderwork stuff than this...so it is an option)

I don't really want to go down this rabbit hole / learning curve to fix the Mrs car, but it looks I am not going to have much choice
(all she wants is the ice alert to stop pinging every 2 mins- It did get quite annoying on the last 4+ hour journey we did - got there stressed and had the same pleasure on the way back - got the same journey coming up in summer at some point - so I may have to de solder the pinger if I haven't got to the bottom of it by then)

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

Just tried the radio to read the outside temp
It is wandering all over the place - from just a few degrees above 0 but does float and peaks at +50c suggesting the wires are shorted

With the display turning off and on - I'm now concerned that it is not only shorted, but maybe has a voltage being put down it (chafed wires?)

Thinking about it...
The car was hit a few years ago on the nearside front whilst parked up- unfortunately the driver who hit it drove off and left us with a bit of a nightmare
- cant recall if we paid for it out of our own pockets rather than claiming
We got away with the bumper being repaired and resprayed, the headlight just got away with it (scratches pretty much all buffed out) so it wasn't too pricey IIRC

Now wondering if corners were cut if the wiring took any damage - and now it is coming to light
(corrosion, electrical tape bodges etc)

Going to pull the dash today and see if the pins will remove OK from the connector rather than cutting and solder/heatshrink the loom by the connector - though cutting will allow me to check the voltage coming out of the dash to the sensor and let me put a resistor in its place....
Going to have a brew and a good think about it first

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

Possibly yet another red herring

Pins come out of the connector nice and easy
With the blue/red and blue/brown wires out of the connector nothing has really changed
screen still blinking off and on, temps are randomly going all over the place, still get an ice alert ping as it crosses over below 3 degrees or whatever the tripping point is

Tested the resistance of the temp probe (inc its wires)- and it was solid and varying slightly -so seemed like it was perhaps reading OK (certainly not wild random numbers - only the last 2 digits were drifting IIRC)

Wish I had written down the resistance reading to compare ...or tried to video it - but was struggling enough one handed with the dash balanced on the steering wheel and trying to hold the probes against the wires etc

No stray voltage coming back from the sensor (so not likely chaffed wires in the loom)

So it does look like the dash has an issue (regardless of outside temps)
Couldn't get to the back of the connector to test the temp sensor has a voltage feed to it and see what it is
(Think the steering wheel would have to come off - or a donor wire fitted to the plug - otherwise I'd risk straining the plug/loom to do this)

So it looks like my next port of call is to obtain another binacle
Not sure what the implications of just plugging in another unit is temporarily before it gets coded
(just a tamper dot which could be programmed out of the dash and nothing long term to worry about?)
or does the VIN have to be programmed in before it will work with the car at all?

Can the chip just be swapped from one dash to the next? assuming a new dash will display everything OK
Or is it possible that the issue will follow and safer to have the dash programmed with my VIN and current mileage?

I do need advice at this point as the obvious stuff I am 100% confident in checking has been done
(I suppose I could check the kcan with a dual scope or a pair of the handhelds I have)
But then do the lines need terminating? - no good just pulling the pins from the back of the dash and using the probes against the dangling un-terminated lines?

I do not want to break this car any more than it is already broken
I'm in the bad books enough without it

Regards
Rob

[therealdb1]

I don't think you have a red herring you seem to have made progress. If the sensor reading is fairly steady at the wires behind the binnacle then the sensor and the wiring are pretty much ok.
The fact that the instruments behave the same without the sensor connected is pointing to a fault in the instrument pack itself which is what we eluded to earlier in the discussion.
I think you will find that information such as mileage is held elsewhere in one of the other modules as well as the instrument pack and it is when the two do not agree you get the tamper dot illuminated.
You are going beyond the realms of your average enthusiast DIYer now.
I don't know where you intend sourcing a spare set of instruments but if it is a company then it might be worth asking them about the programming logistics of changing for the new unit. I certainly would not start swapping chips between the two as you may find you are simply transferring the fault onto the replacement.
Alternatively give an Indy a call who is experienced in the electronics of these BMW's. I have one not far from me called Cypress but I am not sure who is about in your area.

[robocog]

I guess the red herring was more about the impact damage (both!) and the fact the code reading was pointing to an invalid ext temp sensor being one of the faults logged
But again if it is the clocks trying to generate a valid signal (on the kcan) for other devices to use based on the actual sensor...if the clocks are bad and generating rubbish data I guess the code reader is correct in its assumptions technically

I would have thought that the KOMBI would be screaming that something is not quite right and that the code reading would have picked it up

Have bought a set of gauges - they are the same make and model number - surprised at the amount of variance from supposedly the same vehicle

The original ones were Borg 1025380-51 and managed to find a set on eBay

The vague plan is to plug them in when they arrive and see what they do
If they do not turn off and on and show a stable external temp and not ping the ice alert every few seconds and they work as the old ones did then I will look into paying someone to get them coded to the car

If they still flash off and on or does strange things then I guess I will know its something else and not the clocks

Will report back

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

The clocks are here
Before I start I guess its wise to write down the current mileage of the car
I am wondering if it is possible to get the odometer reading from the new set without it attempting to update the CAS or cause any changes
I'm thinking if I pull the can pins out from the connector and connect the clocks to the loom if maybe hitting the sticky out button thingy will bring it to life enough

I guess if the new odo is showing a lower mileage than the original it is safe to fully plug it in and test the functions are as expected

If the new ones are showing a higher mileage I'm a little nervous about plugging them in to test

Is the update to the CAS from the KOMBI a reversible process if the new set is showing a higher odo reading?

Regards
Rob

[robocog]

Ok so without the kCAN lines in the plug (and isolated from touching anything!)

Old clocks show a reading of 120639 and the temps are drifting -18.5 degrees at the time I took the photo! (but not blinking off and on or showing the ice alert despite showing sub zero on occasion)

New clocks are showing 127296 and the temps are stable - showing a realistic +5.5 degrees and not moving at all

So it /looks/ like it is the clocks at fault

There is a 7k miles discrepancy that I'd rather not add to the vehicle

The stickers on both clocks show the same software version/revision (not that it means that is what is flashed on them!)

Have spoken to one chap who may be able to physically swap the chips from one set of clocks to the other (I don't think he does the read/edit/flash using R270 thing)
He did say that the software on the clocks may need updating - which could have a knock on effect and require other modules needing updating

The price he has quoted was just for the chip swap - and if that is all is required then we can afford it...but if things spiral into a module flash festival ...

Not sure what to do to go forward with this

Looking likely we will use the chip swap guy and have our fingers crossed it fixes the issue and doesn't spiral out of financial control

Rang around loads of places, but not getting any closer to getting this sorted by the method that sounds like the correct way to my mind - (by way of reprogramming the chip in the dash to suit the vin with the correct mileage)

A few have offered to program the chassis - but the clocks will forever show the additional 7k miles according to them

Spoke to one guy and he was incredibly rude and patronizing (and quoted £250 to £350)
telling me that the R270 wouldn't work and they have much better equipment than that before he said something rude (that I couldn't quite catch) and put the phone down on me...meh

-------
UPDATE
-------

Finally found someone in the UK that has the equipment and knowledge
After a couple of calls to him..
The old dash does indeed have an issue
The new dash works fine (got the tamper dot - but no pings from ice alert and the outside temp readings are stable and accurate enough)
Have sent both dashes off and the CAS to the chap and he is going to marry the new dash to the car (and put the correct mileage in)
Hopefully this time next week the Mrs will have her car back and it all working as it was (without the ice alert pings every 30 seconds and a blinking dash!)

The OBD cable just plopped through the letterbox - but as the car has no CAS or dash I guess I have no way of testing it LOL

May as well try to install the software on the laptop, though part of me thinks that I do not want to look at her car ever again

The new dash must have been "played with" as it had a digital speedo added to the menu - something the old one definitely did not have

If the chap does not clear it when he does his thing then I guess I may have a look at removing it - shame the water or oil temps cannot be displayed - would be more useful

Will report back
If anyone needs the chaps name and number send me a message

Regards
Rob

[therealdb1]

Looks like you are almost there!
Does the car have the trip computer in which case the digital speed can be selected from there and the new clocks may have just remembered it.
I agree water temperature would be useful as my car has a huge oil temperature gauge below the tacho and oil being oil you have to drive about 20 miles before it gets off cold at this time of year. By then you could have boiled all of the water away!

[robocog]

I guess the typical target for the 320d owners (certainly from new) would rather a gauge that brags about economy than something actually useful
(toy car features every kind of gauge going...apart from economy/vac gauge so driving the BM always seems a bit like blind faith - and the toy car more things to get distracted with and worried by!)

Old gauge definitely never had the digital speedo feature at all
...but then it has probably never had a cable inserted other than for diagnosis/clearing the few faults it has had - we are related to the last owner so we can safely say it has never been 'programmed' or tinkered with for the last 10 years of us and them owning it ...and possibly unlikely for the 5 or 6 years between manufacture and them getting it?
So it would all have been stock - as from the factory

I'm sure it will have missed any software updates (if there have been any)
And for certain if there have been any in the last decade!

Interestingly it was showing the "genuine" mileage (with a tamper dot) for the short test journey I did with it (not the new clocks higher mileage)
I think the bloke I spoke to said something about it taking 35 miles to "update" the modules and keys etc to the higher mileage and that it wouldn't be an issue if we did let it update as he was going to clear and reset it back to genuine miles (from my old cluster) which would in turn get written to the modules

Will report back - hopefully with a very happy conclusion
Regards
Rob

[Chappers 71]

I believe the ice warning chime can just be turned off, bit late now I know
I think you go to CC temperature warning in the KOMBI module & set to nicht aktiv

[robocog]

Still couldn't live with the screen blinking off and on and knowing there was something hideous going on behind the scenes and shouting random numbers down the can bus type behaviour for no apparent reason
It also interfered with the OBC stalk functions
(eg setting the time or just scrolling through would cause it to pause and kick back out to the main menu- making the random time resets extra hassle - set the hour and back out then go in again and try the minutes...hoping each could be done without a reset- along with the screen blanking out and the uninvited ice alert pong) - not even an experienced gamer could set hour and minutes in one go without a full reset
I think given time it would only have got more serious

I don't know if it was purely in my head - but with the new clocks installed the car started and sounded smoother from cold....and it felt nicer to drive (but then NOT having it ping every 30 seconds and flick the screen off and on its hardly surprising it was a nicer thing to sit in and operate...you cant imagine the stress levels it helped us achieve on a long journey....ROFL)

Regards
Rob