[AndyEssex330d]

So...a bit of a strange one, I'll try and make it short...

I purchased my property in July 2016. There are two titles, one freehold (the house and car parking ******* and one leasehold (999 years on a car port with coach house above it).

The house was built in 2011/2012 and i am the second owner.

The boundaries of the first title include a parking space in a private parking area between a few houses, 12 spaces in total, all of us responsible for our own spaces.

In my car parking space there is a path beside it and a lamppost. The maps from the land registry etc all include this path as part of my title, but the lamppost simply does not exist in any form of map or paperwork.

Luckily I have a copy of all paperwork from the 1st owner who purchased from the developer, and ours matches theirs, paper wise the lamppost doesn't exist...however it bloody well does!

Now, you can imagine the questions, who pays for it? who owns it? who is responsible for it? what happens if it comes down on top of a car/person blah blah.

Now I have had a meeting with another solicitors and it is obviously going to cost me £££ to find out who is responsible for it, the developer, the 'outdoor management company' and council all deny it falls to them. I must add the car parking area itself is private and doesn't fall to them to be responsible for (although in my opinion the outdoor management company should be!).

What do I do? Do i please ignorance? do i pay through the nose to try and find out what the crack is? my concern is mainly what happens if... and also if the light goes out, and a bulb needs replacing, who does this, how much, and the danger of having a very dark car parking area in winter with a wife and little one isn't safe.

Sorry if its a little long winded, but if anyone has any advise/similar stories please let me know?!

[R0B]

Before you spend any money, you could try and find out for free. I.E call the council and say the light is out, then simply see if they turn up. Same with the management company.

You could find that a solicitor may not even be able to get the answer anyway.

[ajfoggy]

Knock it down and stick up some solar lighting. Job done.

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by R0bbo

Before you spend any money, you could try and find out for free. I.E call the council and say the light is out, then simply see if they turn up. Same with the management company.

You could find that a solicitor may not even be able to get the answer anyway.

its all online and you tick the light that is broken etc. The light isn't on their map, if it isn't they are not responsible :/

[F30Andy]

Andy I might be able to help you with this.

Are you still based in Bas Vegas?

My firm purchased 60 props there over the last two years and I still have contacts in the area that might be able to help you.

Let me know

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by F30Andy

Andy I might be able to help you with this.

Are you still based in Bas Vegas?

My firm purchased 60 props there over the last two years and I still have contacts in the area that might be able to help you.

Let me know

Still in Bas Vegas indeed, I'll pm you. Cheers mate!

[Cookies]

Hi,

Can I ask if the other lamp posts around the development are recorded on the Council website? if so, you may be able to dicuss the issue with them and carry out a simple boundary rectification aligning your property boundary with the edge of your parking space.

Cheers

Cooks

[F30Andy]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

Still in Bas Vegas indeed, I'll pm you. Cheers mate!

PM Replied to.

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Cookies

Hi,

Can I ask if the other lamp posts around the development are recorded on the Council website? if so, you may be able to dicuss the issue with them and carry out a simple boundary rectification aligning your property boundary with the edge of your parking space.

Cheers

Cooks

They are indeed, however the boundary borders other private titles and no council adopted land, the area around the lamppost is a parking area and is entirely private, not adopted by either the council or the development management company.

Have you done something similar then?

[Cookies]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

They are indeed, however the boundary borders other private titles and no council adopted land, the area around the lamppost is a parking area and is entirely private, not adopted by either the council or the development management company.

Have you done something similar then?

if the Council has accepted responsibility for the pavements and lights elsewhere in the development, then you'd have a good case to get them to accept 'adoption' of this particular area.

I've worked with land and ownership for a few years now and have a reasonable grasp of the issues that can emerge.

It really doesn't make sense for the lamppost to be in your property, unless a wayleave arrangement has been made for the Council to access and carry out repairs where necessary. This would have been explicit within your deeds and would have turned up in conveyancing when you were buying the property.

Have a conversation with the Street Lighting section in the council, and see how it goes. it's always useful to build a rapport with the decision makers in these organisations as you may need a sympathetic ear as they'll essentially be accepting an additional maintenance liability.

Good luck.

Cooks

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Cookies

if the Council has accepted responsibility for the pavements and lights elsewhere in the development, then you'd have a good case to get them to accept 'adoption' of this particular area.

I've worked with land and ownership for a few years now and have a reasonable grasp of the issues that can emerge.

It really doesn't make sense for the lamppost to be in your property, unless a wayleave arrangement has been made for the Council to access and carry out repairs where necessary. This would have been explicit within your deeds and would have turned up in conveyancing when you were buying the property.

Have a conversation with the Street Lighting section in the council, and see how it goes. it's always useful to build a rapport with the decision makers in these organisations as you may need a sympathetic ear as they'll essentially be accepting an additional maintenance liability.

Good luck.

Cooks

That is really helpful, Thank you.

There is no mention of the lamppost in any documentation from the developer to the 1st owner and from the 1st owner to myself. I am going to try the council but as it is not on their 'report an issue' map (although all other posts in the development are), there are no markings etc either.

If it does end up being mine and my sole responsibility it will be coming down I think, or I will look at solar options, who knows who is paying for the electricity at the moment!

Thank you RE the council taking responsibility, have you had a similar scenario in the past? I don't want to make enemies at the council as may look at building an extension in the near future

[Ridg]

do you know what the title numbers are?

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

That is really helpful, Thank you.

There is no mention of the lamppost in any documentation from the developer to the 1st owner and from the 1st owner to myself. I am going to try the council but as it is not on their 'report an issue' map (although all other posts in the development are), there are no markings etc either.

If it does end up being mine and my sole responsibility it will be coming down I think, or I will look at solar options, who knows who is paying for the electricity at the moment!

Thank you RE the council taking responsibility, have you had a similar scenario in the past? I don't want to make enemies at the council as may look at building an extension in the near future

We have had this issue on our new estate - the smaller roads are private and managed by the management company (that we all pay a fee towards). We have lampposts included in this.

However, one of them was put in the garden area of one property and they are refusing to accept it for the reasons you mention. The builders are having to move it and find a place where it can be included on common land. I would take it up with the developers, it shouldnt be there and if they want to leave it there you want a rental for having it on your property, or you can sell them the land it sits on (for a reasonable fee and if they cover all legal costs).

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Ridg

do you know what the title numbers are?

I can find out Sir, how come?

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

We have had this issue on our new estate - the smaller roads are private and managed by the management company (that we all pay a fee towards). We have lampposts included in this.

However, one of them was put in the garden area of one property and they are refusing to accept it for the reasons you mention. The builders are having to move it and find a place where it can be included on common land. I would take it up with the developers, it shouldnt be there and if they want to leave it there you want a rental for having it on your property, or you can sell them the land it sits on (for a reasonable fee and if they cover all legal costs).

Seems a common 'new development' issue, who was/is the developer in your case? I would need to determine I am not the owner/person responsible before I could push to then charge them rent, it is interesting as I believe the lighting was a factor in the council granting planning permission (our development is part of a regeneration type piece that is aimed at bringing up the older areas surrounding...and so security comes into account).

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

Seems a common 'new development' issue, who was/is the developer in your case? I would need to determine I am not the owner/person responsible before I could push to then charge them rent, it is interesting as I believe the lighting was a factor in the council granting planning permission (our development is part of a regeneration type piece that is aimed at bringing up the older areas surrounding...and so security comes into account).

Bovis... but I think others are nearly as bad! If you have a management company (and pay a fee) then you should be able to find what the payment covers. So ask them that in writing - then ask developer for info regarding your specific lamp, and take it from there...

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Bovis... but I think others are nearly as bad! If you have a management company (and pay a fee) then you should be able to find what the payment covers. So ask them that in writing - then ask developer for info regarding your specific lamp, and take it from there...

Unfortunately I have already spoken to both, through my solicitor I used to purchase the house, management company are awful to deal with and reject all argument it is their responsibility, and to be fair they literally only cut the grass on an open field area in the development. The developers informed my solicitor that unless their client was blind (which I am not) I would have seen the lamppost within my title and should have assumed it is their responsibility.

I wont by another home built by them that is for sure!

[Ridg]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

I can find out Sir, how come?

I'm a programmer for a company that specialize in property searches and insurance as such with the title number I can pull up the deed and have a quick look; I'm not a solicitor but one of my projects was to automate the title interrogation process such that it did the job of the solicitor.

Essentially I can have a quick look and see if there is anything obvious also there should be a freehold title that goes with the leasehold (unless that's included in your freehold) so it could be the case that the freehold contains the lamp posts.

[Cookies]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

That is really helpful, Thank you.

There is no mention of the lamppost in any documentation from the developer to the 1st owner and from the 1st owner to myself. I am going to try the council but as it is not on their 'report an issue' map (although all other posts in the development are), there are no markings etc either.

If it does end up being mine and my sole responsibility it will be coming down I think, or I will look at solar options, who knows who is paying for the electricity at the moment!

Thank you RE the council taking responsibility, have you had a similar scenario in the past? I don't want to make enemies at the council as may look at building an extension in the near future

You're very welcome.

Generally speaking, the 'report a fault' maps will be based around the Council's property folio maps, so the lamp posts will be plotted on the Councils land. As it's on your land, or more to the point, not on theirs, it won't appear on those maps.

I'd imagine that it's been an oversight. I'd also guess that the lamp post is connected to the lighting circuit with the other lamp posts, and as such it was always intended to be a continuation of the Council's land.

Definitely worth sorting now though. It may be worth also having a quick chat with your solicitor, to see what their thoughts are.

Cooks

Edit - one other point worth noting is that the Council, assuming it is the sole Road authority for the area has to maintain a certain lux level (lighting intensity level) throughout the residential development for the safety of road users and pedestrians. So it may actually be in their interest to accept this area of land and lamp post as they me be in contravention of a British standard, something designed into the development and considered at planning permission application stage. If this lamp post was to be removed by you, as you have no statutory responsibility to maintain it, the Council would have to consider the impact on the overall lux levels in that area, and may actually have to install a replacement lamp post in order to maintain our levels to an acceptable standard.

Just another thought.

Cooks

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Ridg

I'm a programmer for a company that specialize in property searches and insurance as such with the title number I can pull up the deed and have a quick look; I'm not a solicitor but one of my projects was to automate the title interrogation process such that it did the job of the solicitor.

Essentially I can have a quick look and see if there is anything obvious also there should be a freehold title that goes with the leasehold (unless that's included in your freehold) so it could be the case that the freehold contains the lamp posts.

Perfect! I have messaged you the title numbers

Cheers mate,

[AndyEssex330d]

Originally Posted by Cookies

You're very welcome.

Generally speaking, the 'report a fault' maps will be based around the Council's property folio maps, so the lamp posts will be plotted on the Councils land. As it's on your land, or more to the point, not on theirs, it won't appear on those maps.

I'd imagine that it's been an oversight. I'd also guess that the lamp post is connected to the lighting circuit with the other lamp posts, and as such it was always intended to be a continuation of the Council's land.

Definitely worth sorting now though. It may be worth also having a quick chat with your solicitor, to see what their thoughts are.

Cooks

I am going to have the wiring looked at F30Andy but I do think it is a continuation of the other lamps which fall under the Council to maintain. If so then I will be happily passing their maintenance to them, I certainly want to sort it out now rather than later, I know we wont live in this house forever, and so would prefer to have dealt with the issue before selling up than when I want to sell.

Thank you for your insight it is incredibly helpful!

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by AndyEssex330d

Unfortunately I have already spoken to both, through my solicitor I used to purchase the house, management company are awful to deal with and reject all argument it is their responsibility, and to be fair they literally only cut the grass on an open field area in the development. The developers informed my solicitor that unless their client was blind (which I am not) I would have seen the lamppost within my title and should have assumed it is their responsibility.

I wont by another home built by them that is for sure!

Don’t let the management company fob you off. If there are lights on unadopted roads then someone is paying the costs of running them so ask who...

As for builder point out that location and legal owner are not always coterminous and builders do make mistakes so you want them to check they haven’t made one. Then get the press involved - they love new build stories currently as NHBC are shit at solving problems. Give them a hard time....