Can company change notice period

planemad · 01-02-2018, 01:15 PM

I have no idea on employment law as I have always worked for my families building firm. So wonder if I can consult with you chaps on the below.

My sister works as a vet newly qualified (2016) and runs a practice that is owned by a large company. She is a standard PAYE employee with an employment contract.
They have given her the annual pay rise letter today alongside a contract amendment asking her to sign and return to HR.
The main change is changing her notice period from 3m to 6m.
There has been no consultation.
She has plans to go on her own later this year with her own practice so does not want to be committed to a 6 month notice period.
Does she have any option? Or is it a sign it or leave now while she is still on 3m?

Soul_Glo · 01-02-2018, 01:37 PM

Yes companies can under contract law. Our company did this to manage the recruitment of new staff when we had turn over. It meant they had time to find the right person in our specialist field. I think 6 months is excessive. Mine went up to 4 from 2 months.

In terms of legality though you need not work the full notice period. Say she had a job offer and the new employer could only hold the post for 5 months then some discretion would apply. The current employer couldn't cheat her of a new job. If they found a replacement for her role within 2 months then they couldn't make her work the full 6.

However, it depends on the company. If they are good and supportive she won't work the full 6 months but if they haven't found someone they might not support her and push for her to stay the full 6.

My advice would be to query it with HR and check if there is room for movement and have the contract amended to something reasonable. If they decline then union or legal advice to argue the notice period.

Don't sign anything. While terms can be enforced without written consent. There is less chance to argue it out if you have signed in agreement to it. Always ask first. Sneaky HR people. What does Hr stand for? Human Remains.

willjames · 01-02-2018, 01:39 PM

Sorry, I’m no expert but surely she could could just leave anyway? What’s the worst that could happen, apart from a poor reference? However, this won’t matter if she sets on up on her own. I imagine people leave businesses all the time, for all sorts of reasons, despite their contractual obligations.

I would add though, I wouldn’t neccesarily advocate leaving on bad terms if one can help it...never burn a bridge!

Surely the best thing to do is discuss it with her employer, they may be able to work something out.

Be interested to hear other perspectives on this one, especially HR experts from a contractual aspects.

isleaiw1 · 01-02-2018, 01:42 PM

Perhaps more important in the circumstances is if she has a no competition clause that prevents her leaving and setting up on her own in same locality.

Can’t help with your query but pretty sure my contract says that they can change things if they want...

And I did have it increased from 3m to 6m once when a takeover was looking likely 😉

MarkG_M5Comp · 01-02-2018, 01:52 PM

Interestingly my last company issued new contracts the same week I attended my final interview with the new one.

As I waited for a potential offer to come through, I sought legal advice and was told I was under no obligation to sign the new contract, that it didn't represent enough benefit to me and that it would be up to the court to decide if they wanted to impose it later.

I didn't sign and strung it out to the point I sent in my resignation. My suggestion would be your sister does the same - string it out and see what happens. If they turn nasty it will tell her all she needs to know.

Can she locum for a few months?

planemad · 01-02-2018, 02:08 PM

She can locum.
I’m building the new practice at the moment for her. It’s in a different area to where she is now. It won’t be finished unit Oct 18 as we are awaiting some final permissions from planning for a residential wing for my sister to live and deal with some of the overnight emergencies.

She can afford to leave also but is keen to stay on to keep current and she loves her job. The vet world is small so she does not want a tarnished name. I suggested to her to put the notice in tomorrow and then work for them as self employed until they find a replacement.

MarkG_M5Comp · 01-02-2018, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by planemad

...

She can afford to leave also but is keen to stay on to keep current and she loves her job. The vet world is small so she does not want a tarnished name. I suggested to her to put the notice in tomorrow and then work for them as self employed until they find a replacement.

This is what I was getting at. She could string it out until either a) they do nothing or b) they start to get a little tetchy, or she could be honest and tell them 'that doesn't work for me - but I'll work on contract so you get your notice anyway'.

The next chapter sounds exciting so she shouldn't let this give her any kind of negativity.

Jeff123 · 01-02-2018, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willjames

Sorry, I’m no expert but surely she could could just leave anyway? What’s the worst that could happen, apart from a poor reference? However, this won’t matter if she sets on up on her own. I imagine people leave businesses all the time, for all sorts of reasons, despite their contractual obligations.

I would add though, I wouldn’t neccesarily advocate leaving on bad terms if one can help it...never burn a bridge!

Surely the best thing to do is discuss it with her employer, they may be able to work something out.

Be interested to hear other perspectives on this one, especially HR experts from a contractual aspects.

Imagine if you were an employer and a member of staff who you have; paid, pensioned, trained, mentored, developed and generally looked-after over the years just walked out without giving proper notice. The employee is in breach of contract and should expect at the very least that they would lose something in return.

Most people are very reasonable if you talk things over with them in a friendly manner. They will probably work out a compromise that suits both parties.

Watsey · 01-02-2018, 02:48 PM

Notice period usually forms part of the contractual conditions of employment and on that basis cannot be changed unilaterally. Therefore, she has no obligation to sign.

As she is planning to leave at some point in the near future she should consider the relative pros and cons of agreeing to an increased notice period : increased security versus extended lock-in. "Later this year" still provides plenty of time to serve notice on the employer and nine the meantime she doesn't rock the boat.

It could also be a negotiation opportunity. If the business is having problems retaining staff (or your wife in particular - they may have suspicions that she is planning to leave, and her successor may be hard to recruit) and managing turnover she could request a salary increase as part of agreeing to an extended notice period.

SteveChester · 01-02-2018, 03:00 PM

I also got handed this last year (literally handed it by my "manager" as he walked out of the office) saying my notice period had been extended from 3 to 6 months no consultation or communication whatsoever.

It had a slip of paper attached asking me to sign it which I didn't and I put the whole thing in the bin...

Is my notice period still 6 months then?

davyk31 · 01-02-2018, 03:06 PM

Sounds like she just need to hand in her notice 3 months earlier than she anticipated. Will still end up at the same timescales and if they decide to let her go without needing to serve the full notice period they need to pay her so she gets paid time off to help prepare the new business.

planemad · 01-02-2018, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveChester

I also got handed this last year (literally handed it by my "manager" as he walked out of the office) saying my notice period had been extended from 3 to 6 months no consultation or communication whatsoever.

It had a slip of paper attached asking me to sign it which I didn't and I put the whole thing in the bin...

Is my notice period still 6 months then?

This is what I wonder. As you received it and did not sign, by not discussing or challenging it are you now under an implied contract?

SteveChester · 01-02-2018, 03:36 PM

Agree but also no discussion from employer?

robbiep · 01-02-2018, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveChester

Agree but also no discussion from employer?

As you have continued in your employment without objecting to the new terms, then you would most likely be viewed by a tribunal as having agreed to the new terms.

JNW1 · 01-02-2018, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37psi

Yes companies can under contract law.

You sure about that? I don't think a company can make an employee accept a contractual change to their terms and conditions; they can certainly ask them to sign a revised contract but if they try to enforce it unilaterally wouldn't that be straying into the realms of breach of contract?

SteveChester · 01-02-2018, 04:12 PM

Fairly pointless then asking me to sign for it then?

SteveChester · 01-02-2018, 04:13 PM

How would they prove they gave me the document and letter in the first place without a signature?

I could just say what letter?

6times7 · 01-02-2018, 04:28 PM

Also consider what are the penalties for breach of contract in these circumstances? If you fail to turn up to the last 3 months of the alleged 6 month notice period what are they going to do - not pay you???

robbiep · 01-02-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6times7

Also consider what are the penalties for breach of contract in these circumstances? If you fail to turn up to the last 3 months of the alleged 6 month notice period what are they going to do - not pay you???

Technically, in law, they could employ someone else and then sue you for their additional costs in doing so.
So their costs for agency, overtime costs over and above what you would have been paid, etc.

Whilst it's highly unlikely, it is there.

In such a circumstance as the OP has suggested, I'd decline to sign, and tell them that I would be carrying on under the original terms and conditions.

R0B · 01-02-2018, 04:54 PM

Surely sign the contract, hand in notice in April / May, then start the new business in October. Even if they shove her out the door, they have to honour the six months notice salary wise, as they set out the term.

6times7 · 01-02-2018, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbiep

Technically, in law, they could employ someone else and then sue you for their additional costs in doing so.
So their costs for agency, overtime costs over and above what you would have been paid, etc.

Whilst it's highly unlikely, it is there.

In such a circumstance as the OP has suggested, I'd decline to sign, and tell them that I would be carrying on under the original terms and conditions.

For the 3 months of un-agreed extended notice period? I can't see them making that stick, although getting to that stage with an employer should never be necessary.

Soul_Glo · 01-02-2018, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JNW1

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37psi

Yes companies can under contract law.

You sure about that? I don't think a company can make an employee accept a contractual change to their terms and conditions; they can certainly ask them to sign a revised contract but if they try to enforce it unilaterally wouldn't that be straying into the realms of breach of contract?

Yes. So long as they notify you. Provided there are valid reasons. An employment tribunal would take this in to account amongst other things such as whether it applied to a whole staff group. If the employer enforced this change on one vet and not the team of vets then there would be raised eyebrows. Business needs sometime trump employee needs e.g. a 1 year contract being extended to 2 years and employee being notified. Employee can then like it or lump it.

If in doubt speak with ACAS for independent and impartial guidance. ACAS is king! Loads of useful information on their website.

It is not a breach in this case as the employee has been notified of proposed changes and requested to accept these by signing off.

To break it down. As it was not part of the original contract the contractual terms are being changed. Many variables come in to play. Was the employee told? Did the employee consent? Is the notice period excessive? No communication about this would be a break in contract. Resisting an employee declining this or firing an employee because of non acceptance could also land an employer in hot water.

https://www.monster.co.uk/career-adv...-notice-period

The best thing to do in this case is speak with ACAS to understand her rights under employment law and then discuss waiver of 6 month period with HR. Union membership is not a bad idea at this point unless already in place.

It is nice they have at least notified and request a sign off. We were told word is gospel in my case and it was enforced on the whole staff group because we were losing staff like rats jumping off a ship. As I work in a specialist field the end to end recruitment/ replacement process can take up to 6 months. As we serve a population of 580,000 and there were 33 of us... when we were down to 7 the employer tightened their reigns until we were back up to staffing compliment. If you didn't like it you were told where the door was. Only 1 waiver was offered in a case of someone relocating across the country. It would have been interesting to see how it played out in a tribunal as it is was not clear cut.

She should not sign at this stage. There is still time to question or dispute it. If she plans to leave soon then she can put her case forward for that as well as other reasons. Speak to ACAS and then HR. Not signing is not necessarily a clear case of implied contract. Again, a tribunal would take things into account such as.. if someone was told about the change and unhappy but worked 4 months after being told without questioning it then why not? That could be seen as an acceptance of the change. Six month is too much! She does have a choice whether she wants to stay or leave. However, the notice must be discussed or negotiated and if an employer can justify why it is 6 then she still has a choice to stay or leave.

01-02-2018, 01:15 PM	#1
planemad Lieutenant Colonel 773 Rep 1,643 Posts Drives: 2020 Audi SQ7 & 2019 AM DB11 Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: The Democratic Peoples Republic Of South East England iTrader: (0)	Can company change notice period I have no idea on employment law as I have always worked for my families building firm. So wonder if I can consult with you chaps on the below. My sister works as a vet newly qualified (2016) and runs a practice that is owned by a large company. She is a standard PAYE employee with an employment contract. They have given her the annual pay rise letter today alongside a contract amendment asking her to sign and return to HR. The main change is changing her notice period from 3m to 6m. There has been no consultation. She has plans to go on her own later this year with her own practice so does not want to be committed to a 6 month notice period. Does she have any option? Or is it a sign it or leave now while she is still on 3m? Last edited by planemad; 01-02-2018 at 01:22 PM..
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01-02-2018, 01:37 PM	#2
Soul_Glo Major General 13347 Rep 7,484 Posts Drives: G20 Join Date: May 2013 Location: Manhattan, NYC iTrader: (1)	Yes companies can under contract law. Our company did this to manage the recruitment of new staff when we had turn over. It meant they had time to find the right person in our specialist field. I think 6 months is excessive. Mine went up to 4 from 2 months. In terms of legality though you need not work the full notice period. Say she had a job offer and the new employer could only hold the post for 5 months then some discretion would apply. The current employer couldn't cheat her of a new job. If they found a replacement for her role within 2 months then they couldn't make her work the full 6. However, it depends on the company. If they are good and supportive she won't work the full 6 months but if they haven't found someone they might not support her and push for her to stay the full 6. My advice would be to query it with HR and check if there is room for movement and have the contract amended to something reasonable. If they decline then union or legal advice to argue the notice period. Don't sign anything. While terms can be enforced without written consent. There is less chance to argue it out if you have signed in agreement to it. Always ask first. Sneaky HR people. What does Hr stand for? Human Remains.
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01-02-2018, 01:39 PM	#3
willjames Lieutenant Colonel 709 Rep 1,696 Posts Drives: G01 X3 3.0d M Sport Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Dukinfield, Cheshire iTrader: (0)	Sorry, I’m no expert but surely she could could just leave anyway? What’s the worst that could happen, apart from a poor reference? However, this won’t matter if she sets on up on her own. I imagine people leave businesses all the time, for all sorts of reasons, despite their contractual obligations. I would add though, I wouldn’t neccesarily advocate leaving on bad terms if one can help it...never burn a bridge! Surely the best thing to do is discuss it with her employer, they may be able to work something out. Be interested to hear other perspectives on this one, especially HR experts from a contractual aspects.
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01-02-2018, 01:42 PM	#4
isleaiw1 Lieutenant General 8780 Rep 12,254 Posts Drives: iPace / Mini Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Perhaps more important in the circumstances is if she has a no competition clause that prevents her leaving and setting up on her own in same locality. Can’t help with your query but pretty sure my contract says that they can change things if they want... And I did have it increased from 3m to 6m once when a takeover was looking likely 😉
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01-02-2018, 01:52 PM	#5
MarkG_M5Comp Supreme Being 1804 Rep 5,425 Posts Drives: M5 Comp Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Hampshire, UK iTrader: (0)	Interestingly my last company issued new contracts the same week I attended my final interview with the new one. As I waited for a potential offer to come through, I sought legal advice and was told I was under no obligation to sign the new contract, that it didn't represent enough benefit to me and that it would be up to the court to decide if they wanted to impose it later. I didn't sign and strung it out to the point I sent in my resignation. My suggestion would be your sister does the same - string it out and see what happens. If they turn nasty it will tell her all she needs to know. Can she locum for a few months? __________________ Current: F90 M5 Competition Gone: F80 M3 Competition Pack / M135i / F15 X5 M50d / Saab 9-5 Aero HOT / F30 335d xDrive M Sport / E92 LCI 320d M Sport / E46 320d M Sport Touring / E46 318i Touring
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01-02-2018, 02:08 PM	#6
planemad Lieutenant Colonel 773 Rep 1,643 Posts Drives: 2020 Audi SQ7 & 2019 AM DB11 Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: The Democratic Peoples Republic Of South East England iTrader: (0)	She can locum. I’m building the new practice at the moment for her. It’s in a different area to where she is now. It won’t be finished unit Oct 18 as we are awaiting some final permissions from planning for a residential wing for my sister to live and deal with some of the overnight emergencies. She can afford to leave also but is keen to stay on to keep current and she loves her job. The vet world is small so she does not want a tarnished name. I suggested to her to put the notice in tomorrow and then work for them as self employed until they find a replacement.
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01-02-2018, 02:48 PM	#9
Watsey Major General 6422 Rep 8,501 Posts Drives: F31 330D sDrive M Sport Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: On sabbatical. iTrader: (1)	Notice period usually forms part of the contractual conditions of employment and on that basis cannot be changed unilaterally. Therefore, she has no obligation to sign. As she is planning to leave at some point in the near future she should consider the relative pros and cons of agreeing to an increased notice period : increased security versus extended lock-in. "Later this year" still provides plenty of time to serve notice on the employer and nine the meantime she doesn't rock the boat. It could also be a negotiation opportunity. If the business is having problems retaining staff (or your wife in particular - they may have suspicions that she is planning to leave, and her successor may be hard to recruit) and managing turnover she could request a salary increase as part of agreeing to an extended notice period. __________________ Current : F31 330sD, remapped, Ohlins Road & Track, Millway camber plates, Quaife LSD, Stoptech brakes + Pagid RSL1 pads all round, Weichers front strut brace, Eibach front & rear anti-roll bars, Michelin MP4S.
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01-02-2018, 03:00 PM	#10
SteveChester Brigadier General 2472 Rep 4,653 Posts Drives: F82 M4 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Chester iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW F82 M4 [0.00]	I also got handed this last year (literally handed it by my "manager" as he walked out of the office) saying my notice period had been extended from 3 to 6 months no consultation or communication whatsoever. It had a slip of paper attached asking me to sign it which I didn't and I put the whole thing in the bin... Is my notice period still 6 months then? __________________ Steve Roberts UK F82 M4 I'm running the 2024 London Marathon for the British Forces Foundation - https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/sr5/
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01-02-2018, 03:06 PM	#11
davyk31 Major General 1042 Rep 6,946 Posts Drives: Macan GTS :-) & F40 M135i Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Northern Ireland iTrader: (0)	Sounds like she just need to hand in her notice 3 months earlier than she anticipated. Will still end up at the same timescales and if they decide to let her go without needing to serve the full notice period they need to pay her so she gets paid time off to help prepare the new business.
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01-02-2018, 03:36 PM	#13
SteveChester Brigadier General 2472 Rep 4,653 Posts Drives: F82 M4 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Chester iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW F82 M4 [0.00]	Agree but also no discussion from employer? __________________ Steve Roberts UK F82 M4 I'm running the 2024 London Marathon for the British Forces Foundation - https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/sr5/
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01-02-2018, 04:12 PM	#16
SteveChester Brigadier General 2472 Rep 4,653 Posts Drives: F82 M4 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Chester iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW F82 M4 [0.00]	Fairly pointless then asking me to sign for it then? __________________ Steve Roberts UK F82 M4 I'm running the 2024 London Marathon for the British Forces Foundation - https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/sr5/
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01-02-2018, 04:13 PM	#17
SteveChester Brigadier General 2472 Rep 4,653 Posts Drives: F82 M4 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Chester iTrader: (0) Garage List 2014 BMW F82 M4 [0.00]	How would they prove they gave me the document and letter in the first place without a signature? I could just say what letter? __________________ Steve Roberts UK F82 M4 I'm running the 2024 London Marathon for the British Forces Foundation - https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/sr5/
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01-02-2018, 04:28 PM	#18
6times7 Second Lieutenant 137 Rep 257 Posts Drives: F31 330d Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Also consider what are the penalties for breach of contract in these circumstances? If you fail to turn up to the last 3 months of the alleged 6 month notice period what are they going to do - not pay you???
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01-02-2018, 04:54 PM	#20
R0B Colonel 1535 Rep 2,217 Posts Drives: a car Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Location Location iTrader: (0)	Surely sign the contract, hand in notice in April / May, then start the new business in October. Even if they shove her out the door, they have to honour the six months notice salary wise, as they set out the term.
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